Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

d8491prj5boyvg

Joeface wrote: »

Its not that its the gold standard , its incidents are very similar . Yet one is given a five second penalty the other is not .

The problem isn't with the drivers in both cases its with the stewards . They never repsond in a consistant fashion.

From Canada , Perez went for the overtake on Grosjean they bumped tires . Grosjean complained . nothing happened . Racing incident < Totally agree ) but last year Gasly got the over take on Perez in a very similar move Perez complained . 5Sec penalty for Gasly causing a collision . There are loads examples across every season . Where the rules bend one way and then not the other.

This year Sainz got a penatly for blocking Albon . Hamilton had 2 in a row blocking in Qual against KMag and Erricson I think in Monaco . No Penatly ( This is not against Hamilton by the way ) . Inconsistant stewards . They really need to sort this out . In the end F1 is either about Racing or Rules . At the moment it is certainly not about Racing.


It has become a bit of a joke in the sport . Not sure how the fix it .

One elegant solution would be to make the rules simpler, let the minor blocking slide, but throw the book at anything that could have caused a considerable risk. If Canada 2019 or Hamilton at Monaco 2016 ended in tears, it would have just resulted in two guys out of the race. Let them at it I say. Monaco 2019 where Verstappen nearly caused a crash in the pits, was very much deserving of a 5 second penalty - consequences could have been much worse.

El_Duderino 09

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember anyone overly complaining that Hamilton should get the penalty. So it's seems the same action was not overly contentious then. So either people calling for a penalty suddenly changed their opinion of the rules or it's the surname of tge driver that changed.

Btw I also think Max was at one stage treated a bit harsher by stewards than for example Bottas.

I can't claim to remember how much discussion there was about a particular incident which wasn't penalised 3 years ago. If you can claim to remember it, then fair play to you.

This is particularly contentious because of the impact on the championship. Hamilton is already streaking away with the championship.

meeeeh

Actually this decision will have very little impact on the championship. It might be one of few chances for Ferrari to win a race but considering Ferarri already admitted they messed up this year's concept they won't be fighting for the title. Unless people think those points will be relevant between Bottas and Hamilton.

Adamocovic

My only hope is that it fires Ferrari and Vettel up.

Create a bit more of an edge between the rivalries and hopefully bring out the best in them. Wishful thinking but we've seen in the past drivers performing brilliantly with chips on their shoulders.

Regardless of the penalty decision the aftermath was one of the most captivatingly entertaining post-race antics I've seen in a long while.

Joeface

So France this weekend . How are we feeling ?.

Will Renault be closer to the mix with all the upgrades ( i believe engine included ) coming this weekend .

Jordan 199

I'm hoping for a good race. That is all.

El_Duderino 09

Joeface wrote: »

So France this weekend . How are we feeling ?.

Will Renault be closer to the mix with all the upgrades ( i believe engine included ) coming this weekend .

Well, Renault is doing a lot of chat and making a lot of noise about upgrades etc. But it’s their home race so they are bound to say all that regardless of whether it’s true or not.

After the lacklustre start to the season, I wouldn’t bet too heavily on them. Good improvement last week though. I’d put it down to hype until I see the results on the track.

supremenovice

Its hard to look past the top 3 teams on the podium anyway. The cars are just so reliable now and race ending collisions are not as common. There aren't as many wet weather races as there used to either. I keep hoping for Hulk to get his podium but I just can't see it when you look at the gap from top 3 to the rest.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/40992/kubica-sponsor-hints-at-williams-exit/

Kubica sponsor looking to move its sponsorship to another team to get Kubica further up the grid. The company is said to be paying $10m for Kubica to drive.

Given he’s being comprehensively beaten by his rookie teammate it Doesn’t look good for Kubica as a serious driver on merit. He’s firmly in the pay driver category now if this is anything to go by.

El_Duderino 09

supremenovice wrote: »

Its hard to look past the top 3 teams on the podium anyway. The cars are just so reliable now and race ending collisions are not as common. There aren't as many wet weather races as there used to either. I keep hoping for Hulk to get his podium but I just can't see it when you look at the gap from top 3 to the rest.

Agree on all that but I question the rain point. Are there really fewer rain races now or is just how we remember it? Like the way people remember the past as being great. Summers school holidays were guaranteed sunny weather every day and football was much better.

I wonder if there's any actual data on wet weather races over time. The inclusion of middle east races decreases the chance of rain at those weekends alright.

muckwarrior

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Agree on all that but I question the rain point. Are there really fewer rain races now or is just how we remember it? Like the way people remember the past as being great. Summers school holidays were guaranteed sunny weather every day and football was much better.

I wonder if there's any actual data on wet weather races over time. The inclusion of middle east races decreases the chance of rain at those weekends alright.

It's not that there are fewer rain affected races, it's that they're now much quicker to stop the race if the rain becomes heavy.

eviltimeban

muckwarrior wrote: »

It's not that there are fewer rain affected races, it's that they're now much quicker to stop the race if the rain becomes heavy.

And that's fair enough. I rather my formula one drivers alive rather dead.

meeeeh

There used to be something like 16 or 17 races per year, most in Europe, none in Middle East, Baku, drier parts of US or Mexico. Malaysia used to be wet and that is gone. Imola and Nurmberg could be wet and they are gone. Turkey is the only very dry race that is not on calendar anymore that I can think of. I think it's more the location depending than safety.

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

It's not that there are fewer rain affected races, it's that they're now much quicker to stop the race if the rain becomes heavy.

How often does that happen?

muckwarrior

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How often does that happen?

Haven't been keeping count, but I'm struggling to recall any occasions back in the 90s where they stopped a race because of rain. It was normal to see the cars driving with a massive rooster tail of spray behind it to the point where following drivers were almost driving blind. Also, it was normal to see cars flying off left right and centre. These days they tend to stop the race before it gets to that point. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing btw, just my observation.

Also, meeeeh made a good point on the location of races. Maybe there actually are less wet ones now?

guyfo

eviltimeban wrote: »

And that's fair enough. I rather my formula one drivers alive rather dead.

Not fair enough actually... I've been a fan for over 20 years and never once did I see someone die because of a wet track.

meeeeh

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_red-flagged_Formula_One_races

This is list of races that needed to be restarted for any reason. I don't think there are significantly more races stopped because of rain than they used to be, however my guess is safety car will be out quicker than they used to be.

meeeeh

guyfo wrote: »

Not fair enough actually... I've been a fan for over 20 years and never once did I see someone die because of a wet track.

Joules Bianchi went of on a damp track.

guyfo

meeeeh wrote: »

Joules Bianchi went of on a damp track.

And hit a loading shovel....

meeeeh

guyfo wrote: »

And hit a loading shovel....

Which he would avoid if he managed to stay on the track. He didn't. According to your logic Senna died because barriers were there.

Darkglasses

Not saying wet races aren't more dangerous (I don't have statistics to base an opinion on either way) - but it is surprising how few F1 fatalities actually have occurred in the wet. And even then, whether the wet weather actually caused it is tough to say. For example going back to 1968 with the death of Jo Schlesser in France (the most recent one I can find before Bianchi), the manner in which his car caught fire was probably a bigger issue.

meeeeh

I suspect slower speeds in rain make a difference.

eagle eye

Well I certainly won't be watching. There will get Indycar and Nascar where it'll be hard to pick a winner before it starts and no bull**** penalties.
F1 is an awful organisation, soon as it's gone and replaced by something better I'll be back.
Lewis Hamilton breaking records when people will always question as to how good a driver he is. The reason for that but is all the rubbish going on and rules about specs. One car, Mercedes, is miles ahead of the rest. It's not like any other Motorsports where the actual driver makes a big difference.

mickdw

meeeeh wrote: »

guyfo wrote: »

And hit a loading shovel....

Which he would avoid if he managed to stay on the track. He didn't. According to your logic Senna died because barriers were there.

Well no. The logic is that a loading shovel with such a lethal design should never have been near a race track. If Bianchi had hit a shovel with a straight metal shirt, he would have jumped out of the car. As it was, the shovel design undid all the cars safety systems by moving the direct contact to his head area.
So he didn't die because of the wet track. He died because of the management of the wet track. It is therefore easy to see why race control are super conservative now in terms of wet racing.

meeeeh

And there are less sand run off areas because tarmac is considered safer. Safety measures will always improve but track conditions influence how safe racing is

There will be more accdents in rain and as you can claim that nobody died because of rain in last 20 years you can also claim that 100% fatal accidents in last 20 years happened in wet weather. It's a statement that doesn't tell you anything.

guyfo

meeeeh wrote: »

Which he would avoid if he managed to stay on the track. He didn't.

Ok obviously you haven't been following F1 long enough to understand or are arguing just for the sake of it. If you actually think the reason Jules died was because of wet weather then I question your sanity. With that logic sure why don't the tracks do a sponsorship deals with to park tractors in gravel traps at all the circuits and if someone dies just blame it on the driver for crashing...

A few facts and a bit of background to Suzuka 2014:

Event and championship promoters wanted to push back the event start time as late as possible so the main audience (Europeans) would be more likely to watch. This pushed the start time so late that if something was to happen then the race would be cut short because of fading light. No lights were installed by the Circuit despite this.

Of course to race day arrives and the decision came back to bite them in the arse. The race was started behind the safety car then stopped again causing concern that it would indeed be curtailed if there were any more delays so the officials cut corners.

A few laps before the crash drivers were already concerned with the lack of visibility but the race continued. Sutil went off into the barriers at the Dunlop curve but as bringing out the safety car would have caused the race to be red flagged Charlie Whiting didn't call for it. As a result heavy machinery made its way onto a live race track with cars at full speed and we all know the rest...

At the end of the day that machine should never ever have been there, the actions of the FIA, race promoters, track owners and race officials all added up to cause the death of a fantastic driver, not because he had an off on a wet track. It definitely wasn't "damp" as you stated, it was fully wet, and while weather conditions and visibility caused him to leave the circuit they absolutely did not cause his death.

meeeeh

guyfo wrote: »

Ok obviously you haven't been following F1 long enough to understand or are arguing just for the sake of it.

Sweetie no need to be patronising, I'm watching F1 long enough to remember Lauda racing (vaguely but I do).

I never said rain was sole factor but it was contributing. I'm not arguing for excessive measures in rain I'm just pointing out that your statement is overly simplistic.

Adamocovic

I'm confused regarding the Bianchi debate. Yes it was a combination of factors but the rain was certainly one of the big factors that caused the incident.

Obviously everyone knows the rain, overall conditions caused by the typhoon like the lack of visibility, start time, FIA lack of reaction to the weather and the tractor were all factors that lead to his untimely passing.

I don't see what the point or how someone can try singling out one factor as the cause and arguing the others weren't. The rain certainly was one of the things that lead to what happened.

Even afterwards drivers complained about too much water on the track and argued that they had been on the radio asking the FIA to suspend the race before the incident occured. I remember Massa in particular saying this.

pjohnson

Yeah if people are blaming the tractor for causing it they may aswell blame Sutil if he hadn't lost control and beached himself it would never have been there. Two cars lost it in pretty much the same placed due to the conditions.

It was the conditions being discussed so bringing in the tractor seems odd.

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

Haven't been keeping count, but I'm struggling to recall any occasions back in the 90s where they stopped a race because of rain. It was normal to see the cars driving with a massive rooster tail of spray behind it to the point where following drivers were almost driving blind. Also, it was normal to see cars flying off left right and centre. These days they tend to stop the race before it gets to that point. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing btw, just my observation.

Also, meeeeh made a good point on the location of races. Maybe there actually are less wet ones now?

I think it's pretty Important to know how how often it happens if we're going to say it's a significant problem. I really do t think it happens often enough to be any kind of a problem. It certainly hasn't happened often recently.