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Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    I don t know what the **** that s meant to mean...in the meantime did you scroll through the pics posted on the internet that I linked you

    Why are you quoting yourself?

    Linked me? What *pics? Nope saw no pics - just you quoting yourself

    :pac:

    * ah those pics - what relevancy have they to this discussion?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    gozunda wrote: »
    Why are you quoting yourself?

    What *pics*? Nope saw no pics - just you quoting yourself

    :pac:

    You saw the pics alright that s for sure :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Prominent_Dawg


    Working in retail I have no issue with people wearing Burqas and Hijabs, in fact most of them are very well off and will spend a lot of money if they are made feel welcome.. It's the one's that come in wearing Adidas tracksuits the max air trainers that are usually the issue!


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    You saw the pics alright that s for sure

    And????

    Why were you quoting yourself? You've gone very enigmatic there altogether Danny...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    gozunda wrote: »
    And????

    Why were you quoting yourself? You've gone very enigmatic there altogether Danny...

    At least you learned something about the ability for people to live western lives (sic) in a Muslim country and that all countries in the Middle east aren't as intolerant as Saudi Arabia look quoting myself again ... and you as well (sic) ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    At least you learned something about the ability for people to live western lives (sic) in a Muslim country and that all countries in the Middle east aren't as intolerant as Saudi Arabia look quoting myself again ... and you as well (sic)

    Boy - you're great at pointing out irrelevancies there Danny such as geography and photos in nightclubs lol

    How about discussing the actual issue of Burqas and Hijabs and oppression based on gender.

    And why the heck are you quoting yourself? Do explain

    I see you have at least learned the use of (sic)! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    At least you learned something about the ability for people to live western lives (sic) in a Muslim country and that all countries in the Middle east aren't as intolerant as Saudi Arabia look quoting myself again ... and you as well (sic) ;)

    **** I did it again :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    **** I did it again :eek:

    Danny - maybe take a rest there. I think it's all boiled your brains a bit ... :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    gozunda wrote: »
    Danny - maybe take a rest there. I think it's all boiled your brains a bit ... :pac:

    Apply for a passport and travel a bit...mind yourself :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder




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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    I thought you might have thought this a good idea; an authority forcing women to do what you don't want them forced not to do...
    My bad.
    We can get rid of the antiMorality police, I've them pencilled in as a bullet point.


    I'm sure you thought this was cleverer in your head. At the end of the day you are advocating controlling womens clothing for their own good. That's exactly what the religious police do. You aren't much different to them, you simply have different motivation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    I'm sure you thought this was cleverer in your head.

    Others might appreciate the sarcastic wit. Might just have been wasted on you. Not my finest admittedly.

    At the end of the day you are advocating controlling womens clothing for their own good. That's exactly what the religious police do. You aren't much different to them, you simply have different motivation.

    Which makes us different...

    If some of them are forced to wear it, its banning therefore is a positive thing. Can you even fathom that some might be forced to wear it?

    But sure carry on. A presumably liberal white male, deciding what's best for all such Muslim women, and how best to encourage their integration into a non Salafist environment.
    You literally couldn't make this 5hit up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    On the contrary I think more Irish women should wear them regardless of their religion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    On the contrary I think more Irish women should wear them regardless of their religion.

    A chador does offer certain aesthetic advantages over a "muffin top" ...

    Still, must be consistent.
    Its a no from me


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver



    Clutching at straws man, you trailed through the net and found some horror story click bait and decided thats proof. The first 2 are the same links, and the rest are extremely and I mean extremely isolated incidents ...if they weren t you d have found a **** load ...the pictures of people in the nightclub is the truth. If you re drunk and disorderly and draw attention to yourself you ll get in to serious trouble in the way that a lot of people on here suggest 'scumbags' and 'travellers' should be treated [zero tolerance]but other than that you can get on with your life as normal. And of course I became friends with Emiratis I was working with them. To be honest this conversation is ridiculous because I know what I m talking about, this isn t even a debate about opinion or perspective , this is you deciding I'm being untruthful about my experience and the experience of the half million or so westerners living there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    Clutching at straws man, you trailed through the net and found some horror story click bait and decided thats proof. The first 2 are the same links, and the rest are extremely and I mean extremely isolated incidents ...if they weren t you d have found a **** load ...the pictures of people in the nightclub is the truth. If you re drunk and disorderly and draw attention to yourself you ll get in to serious trouble in the way that a lot of people on here suggest 'scumbags' and 'travellers' should be treated [zero tolerance]but other than that you can get on with your life as normal. And of course I became friends with Emiratis I was working with them. To be honest this conversation is ridiculous because I know what I m talking about, this isn t even a debate about opinion or perspective , this is you deciding I'm being untruthful about my experience and the experience of the half million or so westerners living there.

    I haven't decided you're being untruthful,
    It's just difficult to reconcile your UAE with others' experience*, and some random articles from one quick search on Google, notwithstanding I pasted the same link twice.
    If you say you're telling the truth fine, I believe you!

    *I haven't been there & I've no wish to go.

    Back to burkas. Will I put you down for a "no"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    I haven't decided you're being untruthful,
    It's just difficult to reconcile your UAE with others' experience*, and some random articles from one quick search on Google, notwithstanding I pasted the same link twice.
    If you say you're telling the truth fine, I believe you!

    *I haven't been there & I've no wish to go.

    Back to burkas. Will I put you down for a "no"?

    I'm with others here , telling women what they can and cannot wear as a law in any liberal democracy is a retrograde step.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    I'm with others here , telling women what they can and cannot wear as a law in any liberal democracy is a retrograde step.

    When you see women in Iran protesting against mandatory hijab after the shah was ousted in 79, to me suggests they're not that enamoured with them. So if they weren't wearing them until a fundamentalist Ayotollah mandated them, that suggests a certain reluctance to have to wear one, throw in the white Wednesday movement, and thats just a hijab.

    When you see women celebrating ISIS being pushed out of their villages by removing their burkas, also suggests theyre not overly enamoured with the burka either.

    Seems to be a bit of a trend, (and a recent enough trend) when fundamentalist mysoginists come to power, one of the first thing they set about doing, is suppressing female sexuality and enforcing strict moral sartorial obligations on their women, preventing them from fully participating in society. Wanting to wear one indicates you subscribe to this ideology.

    So logically, if a certain proportion of women do not want to wear hijab/burqa, banning it would support any such women, while also ensuring women who genuinely want to wear it as a signal of their morality and fundamentalist ideology, are free to go somewhere else.

    It can't be anti Muslim, it's certainly not anti women if some dont want to wear it, it's simply an anti backward, regressive, dangerous ideology, that is incompatible with an ability to express an opinion whether women even have a choice in the matter, among other things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    Clutching at straws man, you trailed through the net and found some horror story click bait and decided thats proof. The first 2 are the same links, and the rest are extremely and I mean extremely isolated incidents ...if they weren t you d have found a **** load ...the pictures of people in the nightclub is the truth. If you re drunk and disorderly and draw attention to yourself you ll get in to serious trouble in the way that a lot of people on here suggest 'scumbags' and 'travellers' should be treated [zero tolerance]but other than that you can get on with your life as normal. And of course I became friends with Emiratis I was working with them. To be honest this conversation is ridiculous because I know what I m talking about, this isn t even a debate about opinion or perspective , this is you deciding I'm being untruthful about my experience and the experience of the half million or so westerners living there.


    With that attempt at logic Boards.ie may just pack up and close shop. Good to see you have adopted an army of half a million supporters who fully back your version of reality.

    The issue at hand is not about your opinion of anyone country as stated previously, but rather gender based oppression for those who do not have the choice as whether go running in the park with a tracksuit with their head uncovered etc if they so wish. It is that same issue which these self same women are made to do the same in other countries whether they wish to or otherwise.

    Withering on about random snaps in nightclubs (which interestingly by law exclude the locals) showing expats is largely irrelevant. Try that type of thing outside those nightclubs which are set up for foreigners or in public and you'll get a short sharp shock and the full weight of religous fundamentalism down on top of you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Others might appreciate the sarcastic wit. Might just have been wasted on you. Not my finest admittedly.


    Oh I could probably guess who will appreciate it.

    Which makes us different...


    It makes your cause different. But you both think you are doing it for the greater good. You are both justifying the oppression of women based on your own moral value.


    [/QUOTE]If some of them are forced to wear it, its banning therefore is a positive thing. Can you even fathom that some might be forced to wear it?[/quote]


    Indeed they might. How is punishing them going to stop that exactly?



    [/QUOTE]But sure carry on. A presumably liberal white male, deciding what's best for all such Muslim women, and how best to encourage their integration into a non Salafist environment. [/QUOTE]


    I presume you are talking about yourself there.


    [/QUOTE]You literally couldn't make this 5hit up.[/QUOTE]


    You want to dictate to women what they wear. You want to stop foreigners coming in. You think poorly of people from a particular part of the world and a particular religion. You want to restrict a different religion to yours. Do you really consider yourself that different to strict Islamists?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    " Do you really consider yourself that different to strict Islamists? "

    This statement says it all really.

    Do we really want to lower our standards to their level?

    Do we really want to permit the instigation of Sharia Law here?

    Because permitting cultural traditions such as Burkha, Hajib, FGM etc this is Exactly what you are doing!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    gozunda wrote: »
    With that attempt at logic Boards.ie may just pack up and close shop. Good to see you have adopted an army of half a million supporters who fully back your version of reality.

    The issue at hand is not about your opinion of anyone country as stated previously, but rather gender based oppression for those who do not have the choice as whether go running in the park with a tracksuit with their head uncovered etc if they so wish. It is that same issue which these self same women are made to do the same in other countries whether they wish to or otherwise.

    Withering on about random snaps in nightclubs (which interestingly by law exclude the locals) showing expats is largely irrelevant. Try that type of thing outside those nightclubs which are set up for foreigners or in public and you'll get a short sharp shock and the full weight of religous fundamentalism down on top of you.

    I'm glad I ve enthused you to do some reading, the law and how it's adhered to are 2 very different things , the changes that the UAE are going through are going to take time. The same way that this country moved from being a religious theocracy [where women were treated as second class citizens] in all but name 40 years ago to one now in which the pope is seen as a deviant and women no longer take **** . Double standards have to exist in systems where religion has a say. So I repeat apply for your passport and travel. Parochialism causes fear of others. It's a big big world my friend full of differing perceptions and opinions , and we have more in common as humans than differences. :D If you want any advice on the best places to stay or eat in Dubai or Abu dhabi just DM me I'd be happy to assist in broadening your horizons ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,087 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Dannyriver wrote: »
    Behind closed doors, you make it sound like people living in compounds...such bollox...yes you can get arrested for being a drunken slob on the street and they have zero tolerance of the drunken public debauchery and pissing in the streets that is endemic in Irish / British culture, all the rest is just horse **** ... arrested for kissing in a restaurant..is enough for me to know that you know **** all about the place. I lived there for years so I actually know what I'm talking about.

    https://www.dubainight.com/dubai/billionaire-mansion/photos-billionaire-mansion-sunday-septembre-09,3,1056422.html?page=36

    Roger Hassenforder actually provided some links to disprove your assertion that it was horse**** that someone was arrested for kissing in restaurant.
    Care to admit you were wrong?

    And the other things I mentioned have all happened in Dubai.
    Now if you want I can trawl through and find even more like the Aussie guy arrested for sharing facebook post about charity.

    And of course you claim it only happens if someone is drunk out of their skulls on the streets or when your assertions of horse**** are disproven you then claim these are isolated cases.

    Care to tell us how many similar isolated cases of arrests for swearing on social media, arrests for public shows of affection, sharing charity posts on internet, etc, etc have occurred in the Western world ?

    If there is any horse**** around here it is coming from you.

    I take it you are a male because females I have known that have even just visited Dubai have not such a good opinion of the place.

    And yes I know guys that have been pi**ed out of their trees in hotels and in compounds or shagged all round them, but that still does not mean you can live a complete western way of live in the place as you claim.

    All one has to do is look at the weird laws.
    Dannyriver wrote: »
    At least you learned something about the ability for people to live western lives (sic) in a Muslim country and that all countries in the Middle east aren't as intolerant as Saudi Arabia look quoting myself again ... and you as well (sic) ;)

    No one is arguing that everywhere is like Saudi, but you.

    But your assertion that one can lead a completely normal western live is horse****.
    Some countries are more free than others, but none are the same as what we would term western countries of today.

    Actually Bahrain would have been one of the most liberal, although they made sure there was no Arab spring.
    Maybe that was a damn good thing.

    But even in Bahrain one cannot live a completely free western style lifestyle.
    Homosexuality is considered an offence in Bahrain, public shows of affection are frowned upon, open displays of religious beliefs that are non-Muslim can be seen as offensive.

    Anyway stop comparing them to what western countries were like a hundred years ago or in Ireland's case 40 odd years ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    jmayo wrote: »
    Roger Hassenforder actually provided some links to disprove your assertion that it was horse**** that someone was arrested for kissing in restaurant.
    Care to admit you were wrong?

    And the other things I mentioned have all happened in Dubai.
    Now if you want I can trawl through and find even more like the Aussie guy arrested for sharing facebook post about charity.

    And of course you claim it only happens if someone is drunk out of their skulls on the streets or when your assertions of horse**** are disproven you then claim these are isolated cases.

    Care to tell us how many similar isolated cases of arrests for swearing on social media, arrests for public shows of affection, sharing charity posts on internet, etc, etc have occurred in the Western world ?

    If there is any horse**** around here it is coming from you.

    I take it you are a male because females I have known that have even just visited Dubai have not such a good opinion of the place.

    And yes I know guys that have been pi**ed out of their trees in hotels and in compounds or shagged all round them, but that still does not mean you can live a complete western way of live in the place as you claim.

    All one has to do is look at the weird laws.



    No one is arguing that everywhere is like Saudi, but you.

    But your assertion that one can lead a completely normal western live is horse****.
    Some countries are more free than others, but none are the same as what we would term western countries of today.

    Actually Bahrain would have been one of the most liberal, although they made sure there was no Arab spring.
    Maybe that was a damn good thing.

    But even in Bahrain one cannot live a completely free western style lifestyle.
    Homosexuality is considered an offence in Bahrain, public shows of affection are frowned upon, open displays of religious beliefs that are non-Muslim can be seen as offensive.

    Anyway stop comparing them to what western countries were like a hundred years ago or in Ireland's case 40 odd years ago.

    Another person that hasn t traveled and think s he knows what he s talking about...Not a ****ing clue...

    https://www.whileimyoung.com/things-female-expats-love-dubai/


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,126 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    When you see women in Iran protesting against mandatory hijab after the shah was ousted in 79, to me suggests they're not that enamoured with them. So if they weren't wearing them until a fundamentalist Ayotollah mandated them, that suggests a certain reluctance to have to wear one, throw in the white Wednesday movement, and thats just a hijab.

    When you see women celebrating ISIS being pushed out of their villages by removing their burkas, also suggests theyre not overly enamoured with the burka either.

    Seems to be a bit of a trend, (and a recent enough trend) when fundamentalist mysoginists come to power, one of the first thing they set about doing, is suppressing female sexuality and enforcing strict moral sartorial obligations on their women, preventing them from fully participating in society. Wanting to wear one indicates you subscribe to this ideology.

    So logically, if a certain proportion of women do not want to wear hijab/burqa, banning it would support any such women, while also ensuring women who genuinely want to wear it as a signal of their morality and fundamentalist ideology, are free to go somewhere else.

    It can't be anti Muslim, it's certainly not anti women if some dont want to wear it, it's simply an anti backward, regressive, dangerous ideology, that is incompatible with an ability to express an opinion whether women even have a choice in the matter, among other things.

    The point is that it's wrong to force a woman to wear it and it's wrong to force them to take it off. It's up to a woman to decide what to wear, not up to you to tell her.
    And it is anti muslim if the only group you're picking on is muslim.

    And I have no idea how you can say it's not anti women because some women don't want to wear it. Some religious women think that miniskirts are horrible and don't want to wear them. That doesn't mean it's ok to ban miniskirts. If you do something because some people want it, then you're persecuting the others. Even if it's a majority, that's got a term too, it's called the tyranny of the majority.


    Just let people wear what they want to wear. It's not a hard concept to get your head around.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Grayson wrote: »
    The point is that it's wrong to force a woman to wear it and it's wrong to force them to take it off. It's up to a woman to decide what to wear, not up to you to tell her.
    And it is anti muslim if the only group you're picking on is muslim.

    And I have no idea how you can say it's not anti women because some women don't want to wear it. Some religious women think that miniskirts are horrible and don't want to wear them. That doesn't mean it's ok to ban miniskirts. If you do something because some people want it, then you're persecuting the others. Even if it's a majority, that's got a term too, it's called the tyranny of the majority.


    Just let people wear what they want to wear. It's not a hard concept to get your head around.

    Yeah you might want to tell several hundred million Muslim men that.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    When you see women in Iran protesting against mandatory hijab after the shah was ousted in 79, to me suggests they're not that enamoured with them. So if they weren't wearing them until a fundamentalist Ayotollah mandated them, that suggests a certain reluctance to have to wear one, throw in the white Wednesday movement, and thats just a hijab.

    When you see women celebrating ISIS being pushed out of their villages by removing their burkas, also suggests theyre not overly enamoured with the burka either.

    Seems to be a bit of a trend, (and a recent enough trend) when fundamentalist mysoginists come to power, one of the first thing they set about doing, is suppressing female sexuality and enforcing strict moral sartorial obligations on their women, preventing them from fully participating in society. Wanting to wear one indicates you subscribe to this ideology.

    So logically, if a certain proportion of women do not want to wear hijab/burqa, banning it would support any such women, while also ensuring women who genuinely want to wear it as a signal of their morality and fundamentalist ideology, are free to go somewhere else.

    It can't be anti Muslim, it's certainly not anti women if some dont want to wear it, it's simply an anti backward, regressive, dangerous ideology, that is incompatible with an ability to express an opinion whether women even have a choice in the matter, among other things.

    Do you honestly think that banning burqas and niqabs is going to give women living in Dublin more choices?

    If they already live here, then either they've decided to wear those clothes, in which case I'd be against telling them they can't.
    Or else, someone else is making that decision for them (a violent father, brother, husband, mother, mother in law, who knows?), in which case I can't honestly imagine that person going "Ah well, since that's illegal now, I guess I have to respect your choices now". Rather, I would imagine that in such a disfunctional situation the woman in question would not be allowed out in public at all any more.

    Let's face it - a ban of this kind would not help a single woman. If you want to change the law, introduce something that will actually allow women to make choice. Something to ensure it's not someone else deciding for them, be that family member or government.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Yeah you might want to tell several hundred million Muslim men that.

    I do, every day, by wearing exactly what I want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,126 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Yeah you might want to tell several hundred million Muslim men that.

    I'll get around to it. How about you tell all the people here who think the burka should be banned?

    Or were you just trying to score some points with your reply? I said that forcing someone to wear one is wrong. I said it in the post that you quoted and I've probably said it a hundred times over the years I've been posting here.

    as far as I'm concerned the people who try to ban it are up there with the people in saudi forcing women to wear it. Neither gives a flying fcuk what the woman actually want.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dannyriver


    Grayson wrote: »
    I'll get around to it. How about you tell all the people here who think the burka should be banned?

    Or were you just trying to score some points with your reply? I said that forcing someone to wear one is wrong. I said it in the post that you quoted and I've probably said it a hundred times over the years I've been posting here.

    as far as I'm concerned the people who try to ban it are up there with the people in saudi forcing women to wear it. Neither gives a flying fcuk what the woman actually want.

    Now you ve said it.


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