Dairy Chitchat 3

jaymla627

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

In fairness Jay it’s not as easy as all that.
Teagasc are kinda caught between a rock and a hard place. Farms are small, milk price is poor, and farmers need to pile on as many cows/ha as possible.
The real dilemma is farm size.

Saying that the onus is surely on Teagasc to go find solutions for when nitrate regulation gets severe...
The bull calf issue is being dealt with on a day to day timescale...talk up the beef game, instill ‘confidence’ in beef and hope for the best. Not good enough. Teagasc need to face up to the fact that there’s a huge probability that live exports of calves will be stopped. Yesterday was late to find solutions for when that happens.

Simply maths would suggest a million dairy cow and followers doing 8 billion litres of milk, is surely more nitrate friendly and lessens the calf issue than 1.5 million cows and followers doing the same amount of milk....
They are typical public service absolutely no desire to tackle any of the most pressing issues while just window dressing and looking for minor issues to take the onus of their own failings to tackle what's coming down the line fast

yosemitesam1

jaymla627 wrote: »

Simply maths would suggest a million dairy cow and followers doing 8 billion litres of milk, is surely more nitrate friendly and lessens the calf issue than 1.5 million cows and followers doing the same amount of milk....
They are typical public service absolutely no desire to tackle any of the most pressing issues while just window dressing and looking for minor issues to take the onus of their own failings to tackle what's coming down the line fast

It's like they were just saying anything without thinking about it. Target increasing stocking rate to 2.8 average from 2.1 while 2 thirds of dairy farms also diverting >5% of their land towards biodiversity habitats.

alps

jaymla627 wrote: »

Can’t understand that retarded paper on system drift, Teagasc are safe enough lads aren’t going to jump ship to 9000 litre tmr housed herds given they have 95% of the cows breed in the country to their ideal grassland genetics that they simply would bankrupt any dairy farmer that would attempt it with high “ebi” stock Why their still pushing stocking rates at 3 plus cows to the hectare on the milking platform is beyond me, they know new nitrate regulations will put a stop to it, the bull calf issue wasn’t delved into much either, all heads in the sands, lets make some shiny graphs about high production herds been environmental bandits, but tommy down the road stocked at 4 cows /ha in derogation with the farm illuminous green year round from all that environmental friendly protected urea he’s putting out is in line for a Nobel peace price for helping to save the planet.....

The specific advise was not to go above 2.8 as the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

Not introduced at this conference, but nowhere in the world is there a correlation between milk yield and profitability. If there is any correlation between profitability and any other parameter it is that higher profitability can be linked to the %of grazed grass in the diet...that's the only one..

All other profatibily parameters are linked to operator capability.

The creep concern referred to the fact that our stated marketing ploy from Ireland was the "grass fed" product....our USP...to mess with this chasing as yet unproven extra profits, would be detrimental to both sales and environment..

If there can be more profit made from increasing yield per cow from an increased input point if view, that would be purely down to the capability of the operator and not to the system.

I didn't read the paper, so apologies if it differs from the presentation..

jaymla627

alps wrote: »

The specific advise was not to go above 2.8 as the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

Not introduced at this conference, but nowhere in the world is there a correlation between milk yield and profitability. If there is any correlation between profitability and any other parameter it is that higher profitability can be linked to the %of grazed grass in the diet...that's the only one..

All other profatibily parameters are linked to operator capability.

The creep concern referred to the fact that our stated marketing ploy from Ireland was the "grass fed" product....our USP...to mess with this chasing as yet unproven extra profits, would be detrimental to both sales and environment..

If there can be more profit made from increasing yield per cow from an increased input point if view, that would be purely down to the capability of the operator and not to the system.

I didn't read the paper, so apologies if it differs from the presentation..

Grazed grass of owned land, not costing that million odd euro plus asset that you get all this cheap feed from is a great way to make grazed grass look like a cheap feed, the only case study of another pastoral based system where farmers had to buy land to access all this "cheap feed" at land prices comparable to Ireland is New Zealand and we all know the story with debt levels and profitability their

Mooooo

Look at dairying and it's return over the last 20 30 years. Due to rises in costs in order to provide the same level of effective income farms have had to grow and that will be the same in the future. Depending on lads at different stages in their careers staying at the same level is fine. But personally in my mid 30s now with a share of debt in order to provide a lifestyle to stay at it and a business to support it I feel I have to grow to provide that for 20 years time. Will be at a whole farm sr of 2.6 next year Sr of 2.8 if I could get young stock off the block would be manageable with the cow's, perhaps not on 500kg of meal as I feel that would require a change in cow type that may not suit here either as wet weather may lead to housing cow's early or late in spring but I'm still trying to figure that one out. So I think gawds point of farm size being an issue is very relevant. I've done the winter milk thing and for the extra complications it adds the milk price is not sustainably high enough to cover it. Would want to be up on 40 cent for winter milk with out using solids to boost it.

cosatron

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

The booklet from the National Dairy Conference is in the link in the tweet below.
https://twitter.com/teagasc/status/1202340574310936578?s=19

when they mention stocking rate are they talking about the whole farm or the grazing platform. this is one of my pet hates.

alps

cosatron wrote: »

when they mention stocking rate are they talking about the whole farm or the grazing platform. this is one of my pet hates.

Stocking rate is nearly always referring to milking platform..its a context thing..

Gawddawggonnit

jaymla627 wrote: »

Simply maths would suggest a million dairy cow and followers doing 8 billion litres of milk, is surely more nitrate friendly and lessens the calf issue than 1.5 million cows and followers doing the same amount of milk....
They are typical public service absolutely no desire to tackle any of the most pressing issues while just window dressing and looking for minor issues to take the onus of their own failings to tackle what's coming down the line fast

Firstly, would the savoir faire be within the dairy farmers to swing to high yielding cows? Extra workload etc?
More gmo soya & maize imported from the Americas to feed them...?
Different for me...other than minerals, everything produced on farm.
Suppose there was a nitrogen limit imposed of 46u/ac? You could roughly cut cows numbers in half and still run the risk of fodder crises every time the weather doesn’t play ball.
Farms are just too small to be able to man up to the challenges that are around the corner. Teagasc and the dairy establishment will fight tooth and nail to keep derogation...but will eventually have to accept what Bruxelles demands. Ask the Dutch.

It seems increasingly likely that Teagasc will play along and window dress the dairy calf issue...until the proverbial hits the fan, then they’ll go cap in hand to the minister and deposit that sac du merde squarely on his desk.
We’ve to be prepared to keep all calves born on farm from mid Jan to mid May because of the cheap calf imports from Ireland. It’s a PITA but the French farmers don’t seem to mind or they’d block the ports...Christ above would think that it’s the end of the world if he/she were to listen to Irish dairy farmers. Methinks dairy farmers got too cosy while there were mugs of beef farmers there to bail them out.

jaymla627

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Firstly, would the savoir faire be within the dairy farmers to swing to high yielding cows? Extra workload etc?
More gmo soya & maize imported from the Americas to feed them...?
Different for me...other than minerals, everything produced on farm.
Suppose there was a nitrogen limit imposed of 46u/ac? You could roughly cut cows numbers in half and still run the risk of fodder crises every time the weather doesn’t play ball.
Farms are just too small to be able to man up to the challenges that are around the corner. Teagasc and the dairy establishment will fight tooth and nail to keep derogation...but will eventually have to accept what Bruxelles demands. Ask the Dutch.

It seems increasingly likely that Teagasc will play along and window dress the dairy calf issue...until the proverbial hits the fan, then they’ll go cap in hand to the minister and deposit that sac du merde squarely on his desk.
We’ve to be prepared to keep all calves born on farm from mid Jan to mid May because of the cheap calf imports from Ireland. It’s a PITA but the French farmers don’t seem to mind or they’d block the ports...Christ above would think that it’s the end of the world if he/she were to listen to Irish dairy farmers. Methinks dairy farmers got too cosy while there were mugs of beef farmers there to bail them out.

Plenty of obliging tillage men around to grow feed for cows, 400 ton of beet been clamped here after xmas to feed year round, system drift has well and truly got hold of us but at least the cows wont go hungry whatever the weather throws at us haha

straight

Mooooo wrote: »

Look at dairying and it's return over the last 20 30 years. Due to rises in costs in order to provide the same level of effective income farms have had to grow and that will be the same in the future. Depending on lads at different stages in their careers staying at the same level is fine. But personally in my mid 30s now with a share of debt in order to provide a lifestyle to stay at it and a business to support it I feel I have to grow to provide that for 20 years time. Will be at a whole farm sr of 2.6 next year Sr of 2.8 if I could get young stock off the block would be manageable with the cow's, perhaps not on 500kg of meal as I feel that would require a change in cow type that may not suit here either as wet weather may lead to housing cow's early or late in spring but I'm still trying to figure that one out. So I think gawds point of farm size being an issue is very relevant. I've done the winter milk thing and for the extra complications it adds the milk price is not sustainably high enough to cover it. Would want to be up on 40 cent for winter milk with out using solids to boost it.

Lads will eventually get sick of running to keep up with the rest of society. Plenty farms around here with nobody from the next generation to follow on. Milk price will have to rise. But milk supply will fall below demand first.

Mooooo

straight wrote: »

Lads will eventually get sick of running to keep up with the rest of society. Plenty farms around here with nobody from the next generation to follow on. Milk price will have to rise. But milk supply will fall below demand first.

But that's it, nobody to take over so lads will exit with that land possibly becoming part of a bigger enterprise then. The question will be if returns and land values correct or change. It's the same the world over costs rise on the primary producers but prices for milk/ grain / beef stagnate and scale becomes more important. I think lads are deluded if they think cutting stocking rates will lead to a better price of milk. When farms are smaller cutting stocking rates reduces income and then makes them unviable in there own right. I could be different to a lot of lads but tbh I view the ability of the farm to pay labour as a requisite of being someway sustainable as will 100 cows in 15/ 20 years time be enough to give an average income. Sheds/ land need to be maintained , machinery changed, mortgages, family costs etc all have to be paid and they will increase in cost. My peers be they teachers, accountants , engineers will all likely have their income increase over the next 30 years before retirement. Sure their will be ups and downs but if I want to increase my income as will be needed into the future staying the same is unlikely to do that

Water John

I think the sh1t is hitting the fan much earlier than next spring.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/almost-30000-male-calves-slaughtered-at-10-days-old-last-year-968607.html

We have had posters on the farming threads denying calves were euthenaised.

Issue that needs to dealt with but were're late already with Kiwi cross cow.

straight

Mooooo wrote: »

But that's it, nobody to take over so lads will exit with that land possibly becoming part of a bigger enterprise then. The question will be if returns and land values correct or change. It's the same the world over costs rise on the primary producers but prices for milk/ grain / beef stagnate and scale becomes more important. I think lads are deluded if they think cutting stocking rates will lead to a better price of milk. When farms are smaller cutting stocking rates reduces income and then makes them unviable in there own right. I could be different to a lot of lads but tbh I view the ability of the farm to pay labour as a requisite of being someway sustainable as will 100 cows in 15/ 20 years time be enough to give an average income. Sheds/ land need to be maintained , machinery changed, mortgages, family costs etc all have to be paid and they will increase in cost. My peers be they teachers, accountants , engineers will all likely have their income increase over the next 30 years before retirement. Sure their will be ups and downs but if I want to increase my income as will be needed into the future staying the same is unlikely to do that

Scale is not the answer imho. Too labour intensive and too capital intensive. Risk increases and return decreases. Fellas can just get a job with time off pensions, etc. Keep the land for a bit of hobby farming or growing hemp or some other crop.

jaymla627

Water John wrote: »

I think the sh1t is hitting the fan much earlier than next spring.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/almost-30000-male-calves-slaughtered-at-10-days-old-last-year-968607.html

We have had posters on the farming threads denying calves were euthenaised.

Issue that needs to dealt with but were're late already with Kiwi cross cow.

Imagen doing a nuffield scholarship paper on farmer led animal welfare then openly admitting to bobbying your bull calves at 10 days old, tiny bit hipocritically

Water John

Well those were sent to an abbotoir, not hit with a lump hammer as in NZ.

The debate is very late. The national interest was always a dual purpose type calf.

Keep Sluicing

Water John wrote: »

I think the sh1t is hitting the fan much earlier than next spring.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/almost-30000-male-calves-slaughtered-at-10-days-old-last-year-968607.html

We have had posters on the farming threads denying calves were euthenaised.

Issue that needs to dealt with but were're late already with Kiwi cross cow.

My sister in law text me about this 20 mins ago. She lives in bray, no farming connection at all.... and she's spitting fire about cruel farmers. What will she be like after watching the programme tonight.

Say my name

Water John wrote: »

I think the sh1t is hitting the fan much earlier than next spring.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/almost-30000-male-calves-slaughtered-at-10-days-old-last-year-968607.html

We have had posters on the farming threads denying calves were euthenaised.

Issue that needs to dealt with but were're late already with Kiwi cross cow.

We've had posters who publicly posted to have first hand knowledge of on farm slaughter without reporting it.

The market of factorying animals has been well posted on here these last few years especially those who had jersey x.

Mortelaro

If ever there was an example of unnecessary journalism

Panch18

When are people going to get it into their heads about McCullogh and his agenda

He is the most dangerous person in Irish agri at the moment

Mortelaro

I don't think its deliberate
Just not an ounce of cop on

Say my name

Mortelaro wrote: »

If ever there was an example of unnecessary journalism

It'll be ceasarians and artificial insemination on next weeks program.

Then it'll be those poor cuddly pigs and lambs.

jaymla627

Panch18 wrote: »

When are people going to get it into their heads about McCullogh and his agenda

He is the most dangerous person in Irish agri at the moment

He's also leasing land to and has a small share in a large cross breed dairy herd, why would you sabotage yourself and business interests for, rte must have him on a fair salary

Say my name

jaymla627 wrote: »

He's also leasing land to and has a small share in a large cross breed dairy herd, why would you sabotage yourself and business interests for, rte must have him on a fair salary

"Cos he's doing the right thing"

He's grand. His business partner is probably a jolly easy going sort.

whelan2

jaymla627 wrote: »

He's also leasing land to and has a small share in a large cross breed dairy herd, why would you sabotage yourself and business interests for, rte must have him on a fair salary

I don't know if that lease is still going on

jaymla627

whelan2 wrote: »

I don't know if that lease is still going on

Might explain his sudden crusade against Irsh dairyjng if their was sour apples

whelan2

Does anyone have these cubicle ends , do cows legs get caught under them.?

Castlekeeper

Well watch it first, given the probability that there's a Prime time special horror coming up, it might be no harm to be out of the blocks beforehand. Greenwashing won't work so we're better off with the reality.

Castlekeeper

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

In fairness Jay it’s not as easy as all that.
Teagasc are kinda caught between a rock and a hard place. Farms are small, milk price is poor, and farmers need to pile on as many cows/ha as possible.
The real dilemma is farm size.

I heard a man from Oxfam say years ago. "In Asia the one cow house is told they need a second, in Europe the 100 cow herd is advised they need 200, and in the US the 1000 cow unit is told they 2000"

It stuck with me.

Water John

Shooting the messenger solves nothing. AFAIK it's Ella McSweeney is carrying the piece. Don't know who makes the editorial decisions on ETTG.

Iv'e said before Iv'e no absolute position as we euthanaise male goats and chicks.
But we need to be prepared for the wider impact, deserved or otherwise, and also carry it out humanely.

Say my name

Water John wrote: »

Shooting the messenger solves nothing. AFAIK it's Ella McSweeney is carrying the piece. Don't know who makes the editorial decisions on ETTG.

Iv'e said before Iv'e no absolute position as we euthanaise male goats and chicks.
But we need to be prepared for the wider impact, deserved or otherwise, and also carry it out humanely.

Reporting your friend who you have first hand knowledge of might be a start.