Are short men disadvantaged in the dating world?

starWave

How much of a factor is money or the perception of having money (e.g. status symbol cars) in the dating world to men's attractiveness to women?

Height is one of the major factors, but I believe the other most important factor is money, above looks and personality.

completedit

EarlyStorms wrote: »

completedit wrote: »

Nah gym does nothing, I'm like 10 per cent bodyfat, pretty strong, sprint regularly, zero attention from women. My face(depending on what time of day you catch it at, lighting etc.) I would say is better than most Irish men but not good enough to make up for my height and more importantly my small frame.

There is something else at play here, there is no way a fit reasonably good looking guy who is 5'8 cant get any female attention simply because he's 5'8. If you were abnormally short maybe it'd be more difficult. You're doing something wrong, are you awkward around the opposite sex? An interesting guy who is funny and good company and looks how you've physically described yourself should be doing ok.

I'm certainly not funny, not in the way that is attractive to women anyway. I have a funny lighthearted jokey demeanour though without being funny. I don't have the gift of the gab and not gonna have anyone all ears listening to me. If I was better looking I'd be construed as funny, I've seen this before, a guy who is jovial but not funny is viewed as hilarious because of their looks. 
Like I say, I'm judging myself off my best taking into account lens distortion, bad lighting, if I look how I do at my best I'm better looking than most guys but that's a big if. Maybe everyone looks good under the same conditions. It could well be I look like a foot. I certainly can look average depending on lighting/what camera I use. I get plenty of matches on Tinder but have no time for online dating. Not even sure why I use it anymore because it doesn't even give me validation or ego boost like it once did.
5'8' isn't really that short but in Dublin nowadays, it seems like 6 foot is pretty standard. Ultimately, you're compared to those around you and going back to my point about looks and height. It's hard to be perceived as good looking than it is to be considered tall. One is more subjective(especially in the middle ground) whereas tall is just tall.

completedit

starWave wrote: »

How much of a factor is money or the perception of having money (e.g. status symbol cars) in the dating world to men's attractiveness to women?

Height is one of the major factors, but I believe the other most important factor is money, above looks and personality.

Meh. A really good looking guy is more powerful than someone with good wealth and will have a better pool of partners to choose from. But it goes back to averages, money is not really subjective. You are either seen as wealthy or not. If you have the trappings of wealth but have an average face, you'll get girls who wouldn't be into guys who are actually even more attractive to you, but again not enough for the difference to matter much. Remember, most guys just blur into the background for women. I would say most women are not attracted to most men. The problem short guys have is that's it's just one further obstacle getting in the way of finding a girl. It's hard enough as it is but when you keep being greeted with road blocks, it becomes quite disheartening. A short guy has to contend not only with their height but their actual appearance, their weight, their body shape(shoulder width, muscle insertions) hair, size of their dick, personality, social status, wealth. It's a jungle out there tbh.

completedit

Forgive me if I come across like a ranting bitter lunatic. It's not my intention. My battle is with myself. I'm actually at peace with the reality, it's utterly unfair for those of us who find themselves on the wrong side. There is no justice, no more than it is for those born and living with debilitating diseases  or in atrocious conditions. I think that's the sad part. Some things just are.

bullpost

Well he was only 5'3"
But girls could not resist his stare
Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole

Potatoeman

completedit wrote: »

I'm certainly not funny, not in the way that is attractive to women anyway. I have a funny lighthearted jokey demeanour though without being funny. I don't have the gift of the gab and not gonna have anyone all ears listening to me. If I was better looking I'd be construed as funny, I've seen this before, a guy who is jovial but not funny is viewed as hilarious because of their looks. 
Like I say, I'm judging myself off my best taking into account lens distortion, bad lighting, if I look how I do at my best I'm better looking than most guys but that's a big if. Maybe everyone looks good under the same conditions. It could well be I look like a foot. I certainly can look average depending on lighting/what camera I use. I get plenty of matches on Tinder but have no time for online dating. Not even sure why I use it anymore because it doesn't even give me validation or ego boost like it once did.
5'8' isn't really that short but in Dublin nowadays, it seems like 6 foot is pretty standard. Ultimately, you're compared to those around you and going back to my point about looks and height. It's hard to be perceived as good looking than it is to be considered tall. One is more subjective(especially in the middle ground) whereas tall is just tall.

If you’re getting matches why not meet the girls and see how it goes and not just use it for validation? Your wasting their and your own time with that.

Edit: just be careful of those girls coming back around when things don’t work out with their first choices. You don’t want to get into a relationship with a girl that thinks she’s ‘settling’ and not that interested.

lawred2

What classes as short?

completedit

I would say anything below 5'8'' is short but 5'8'' can still look short depending on the persons body proportions, posture, weight etc. I'm 5'8'' and I am perceived as relatively short by my friends/girls I know.

Triceratops Ballet

starWave wrote: »

How much of a factor is money or the perception of having money (e.g. status symbol cars) in the dating world to men's attractiveness to women?

Height is one of the major factors, but I believe the other most important factor is money, above looks and personality.

for me not at all, actually I think men being flashy with money or thinking their money is selling point for themselves is bit of a turn off. I work at a job I really enjoy and have no intentions of giving it up so I'm content to provide for myself and don't see a "provider" as a requirement.
I do think laziness is a turn off so someone who doesn't see the value in work, would put me off but I wouldn't give a monkeys if he earned less than me.

wakka12

starWave wrote: »

How much of a factor is money or the perception of having money (e.g. status symbol cars) in the dating world to men's attractiveness to women?

Height is one of the major factors, but I believe the other most important factor is money, above looks and personality.

Depends on age group, money will have zero influence on attracting a woman of college age for instance

completedit

True, some girls will, but the vast majority just want a cute, well adjusted guy. I'm nearly 30 and studying a Masters. While conventional wisdom holds that men get more attractive as they age, it doesn't mean in looks, they just become more desirable because they have more money and women start looking for that in a man(doesn't mean they're gold diggers, like anything they just want to maximise their potential lot in life). Unfortunately, I missed the boat on both occasions.

lukin

You can't dismiss statistics out of hand like some people here have (just to suit their argument). If you are a male below average height then you are less likely to get married, less likely to have children and less likely to experience lots of other pleasant things not related to the opposite sex like getting promotion in work etc.
The counter argument here seems to be that if you have charisma,confidence and a great sense of humour then that immediately makes up for your lack of height. If that's true then it's equally valid to say that if you are tall and don't have charisma,confidence and a great sense of humour then your height will make up for that. But if you say that you are shot down straight away.
I know a good few short guys who are great to be around but they are all single. I know a good few tall guys who are in relationships and have been quite successful with girsl but I wouldn't like to spend a lot of time in their company.

1. All short guys regardless of how good their personality is have no chance of getting a girlfriend.
2. All tall guys regardless of how bad their personality is can have any girl they want.
3. All short guys with great personalities can have any girl they want.
4. All tall guys guys with terrible personalities can have any girl they want.

All of the above are untrue.
But statistically it's been proven that tall guys have a distinct advantage over shorter guys in the dating game.

Triceratops Ballet

Your last point might be true, but human interaction happens on a case by case basis. You are not actively competing with all tall men every minute of every day. If you meet a girl and hit it off you have as much chance as anyone, provided you have the social skills to carry you through. If you're standing beside a tall guy in a me or him scenario then you might not do as well.

Potatoeman

Height is not the be all end all. Tall socially awkward guys are not going to steal girls away from short player types. Even being confident is not enough if you don’t know when to make a move or know when girls are interested. If you go only looking for one thing then you will get confirmation bias.

completedit

Sure, I would pick being noticeably handsome and 5'7''-5'10'' over tall and jacked any day of the week. But this is an extreme case. You have more chance to be born tall than to be born with looks that are enough to single you out from the rest of the riff raff.

Wibbs

completedit wrote: »

I'm 5'8'' and I am perceived as relatively short by my friends/girls I know.

5'8'' ? Jaysus, you'e hardly a midget. I could see an issue if you were 5'1" or something.

Of the most sexually successful in the mating and dating game I've known three of them are under your height. One I'd reckon is in the 5'5" mark. I'm 5'11" and he's noticeably shorter than me. If he had put notches in his bedpost he'd be sleeping on a mattress surrounded by splinters. Married with a few kids too. Another who would be your height has had an "interesting" love life, including being on his third marriage. I dunno how his man parts haven't fallen off through wear and tear. Another would be in the 5'6" range and again had no shortage of lady friends. Now hitched to a woman objectively better looking than him and 15 years younger. None of them are rich. Average middle class. One is fairly well off I suppose. Save for one guy, none would be "conventionally handsome" by any means. Common thread with all of them? They're very social aware and sociable. They're good craic to be around for men and women. They don't get hung up on details, nor hung up on women that aren't equally hung up on them. They all have a don't give a damn attitude, which IMHO and IME is the biggest trait among sexually and socially successful men. And successful men in general.

Now to be fair the above guys generally operated in the pre tinder world and would meet and get to know women face to face on nights out or through work. They still would if they dumped or got dumped in the morning and I'd have little concern that they would be single for long if they so chose.

completedit

Yeah they have big dick energy. You can't account for that **** hahah, poetry in motion. These guys must have kissed the blarney stone or some **** because they just have it.  I see it all the time. These guys are outliers though.
I know mate, 5'8'' isn't that bad. You can feel small at times though but it's a fine height imo. Don't really see it as small at all.

ginandtonicsky

lukin wrote: »

Yeah, one example of a male celebrity who is short and is married to a female celebrity who is taller than him. One example and this plants the idea in people's head that it is commonplace (when it is not). I could find you twenty other famous couples where the exact opposite is the case.

You said, and I quote, "a headturner would never choose a shorter guy" and I gave you a direct example of one that did. But that's not good enough, you need twenty examples. I could find you twenty examples and it'd be invalidated by the fact that you hypothetically could find 100 examples of these more commonplace taller-man couples and these 20 were outliers. You're a brick wall of confirmation bias :pac:

lukin wrote: »

I don't get this idea that my "attitude" is a turn-off for women. I don't project it in anyway to people. I have never brought it up in conversation with a girl, I don't wear it on a sandwich board around my neck. If they are somehow able to intuitively sense this when I talk to them then that is quite remarkable.It's just something I've noticed and as a result I wouldn't attempt to chat up a girl who was taller/same height as me. I just believe I wouldn't stand much of a chance. That's my right and hopefully girls will respect that in the same way I respect the right some of them have to not be interested in guys that are shorter than them.

Well of course you don't get it, if most people with negative attitudes were that self-aware the attitude wouldn't exist for long or perhaps even come to be in the first place. I've dated a lot, I've met guys who had weird complexes and grudges against women and they don't need to launch into conspiracy theories and data-driven diabribes about their own shortcomings for me to pick up on that. Something is just "off", and these are things that count massively when you're sussing someone out romantically.

You're not shopping for a car and trying to tick a bunch of common-sense boxes, there's a few things you usually will go for that may have drawn your interest(sense of humour, good dresser, ambitious) but for the most part you're driving off of instinct and connection when the face-to-face part is happening and weird vibes will kill that potential right off.

completedit

Whether you're right or wrong, Spenny Mathew's is not a good measure for the normal guy. What regular guy has the social clout and money he has. He's decent enough looking facially as well.

lalababa

Debtocracy wrote: »

I’ve never heard as much about height until online dating came along. I think the problem is that height is a cue for masculinity and on paper this gets excessively associated with a host of other masculine traits – athleticism, strength, confidence, power etc.

As an example of how height is overrated online, imagine a group of guys in a company go on tinder. Lets say one of the guys is 6ft 3 and fairly attractive relative to the other guys. He will probably get the most likes online. But say these guys have a work night out. This tall guy is also socially awkward and doesn’t tend to talk much and keeps to the edge of the group. The manager of this group is average height but is extraverted and confident. Even women who claim to have height fetish will be more likely to go for the manager than the tall guy – because their height fetish was never really a height fetish but rather a power/masculinity fetish.

There’s about 5 or 6 key qualities male attractiveness is based on – facial attractiveness, body type, wealth, status, height, personality (extraversion, low neuroticism, intelligence etc.). And the degree to which a man is attractive will depend upon how they fare across these qualities, not defined by any one area.

So a short guy who focuses on his career, health and emotional well-being should be well ahead of a neurotic, financially unstable 6ft 3 guy. This especially comes into play as guys get into their 30s and women start to look for reliable providers rather than a masculine guy to satisfy their sexual fantasies.

Probably the best strategy for short guys is to avoid getting caught up in the hook-up/fantasy/hypergamy culture that go on in people’s 20s but instead use this time for focusing on career development. If they make it up the professional ladder they should have no problems getting female attention in their 30s.

Jeebus.

completedit

How did I miss that actually? Hear that short guys, just wait till you're 30 and girls are done having fun and they want some seriousness and stability. I'm not big into the redpill stuff tbh, I mean I agree with most of it tbh but it's not something I'm passionate about. I care how my low perceived value affects me, I'm not into online circle jerks among unstable, socially isolated men.

mada82

I think online dating is a bad way to go. People have too many options, become too fussy and overlook people that might catch their attention in real life.

mada82

double Post

lukin

completedit wrote: »

Whether you're right or wrong, Spenny Mathew's is not a good measure for the normal guy. What regular guy has the social clout and money he has. He's decent enough looking facially as well.

Yeah he's a ridiculous example to choose but some people will do anything to prove their point.

ginandtonicsky

lukin wrote: »

Yeah he's a ridiculous example to choose but some people will do anything to prove their point.

hi pot, meet kettle

lukin

Spencer Matthews is 5 foot 9, not 5 foot 7 as the op who brought him up stated.
So her entire argument had been invalidated.

Potatoeman

completedit wrote: »

How did I miss that actually? Hear that short guys, just wait till you're 30 and girls are done having fun and they want some seriousness and stability. I'm not big into the redpill stuff tbh, I mean I agree with most of it tbh but it's not something I'm passionate about. I care how my low perceived value affects me, I'm not into online circle jerks among unstable, socially isolated men.

The thirty thing is just when things become far easier for guys. Most guys with their head screwed on will not entertain having a relationship with a girl that wasn’t interested in them in her twenties.

lukin

ginandtonicsky wrote: »

You said, and I quote, "a headturner would never choose a shorter guy" and I gave you a direct example of one that did.

Yeah a “short” guy who it turns out isn’t actually that short at all but is in fact average height.

ginandtonicsky wrote: »

Well of course you don't get it, if most people with negative attitudes were that self-aware the attitude wouldn't exist for long or perhaps even come to be in the first place. I've dated a lot, I've met guys who had weird complexes and grudges against women and they don't need to launch into conspiracy theories and data-driven diabribes about their own shortcomings for me to pick up on that. Something is just "off", and these are things that count massively when you're sussing someone out romantically.

You're not shopping for a car and trying to tick a bunch of common-sense boxes, there's a few things you usually will go for that may have drawn your interest(sense of humour, good dresser, ambitious) but for the most part you're driving off of instinct and connection when the face-to-face part is happening and weird vibes will kill that potential right off.

So you have dated and met loads of guys who had weird complexes and grudges against women and you were able to “pick up” on that? Did they actually say that to your face? It was all their fault and nothing to do with you. There wasn’t any chance you imagined they had weird complexes and grudges or perhaps you were both nice people and the relationships ended for no particular reason and it was no fault of either of you.

You are even able to tell that I give off “weird vibes” just by interacting with me on an online forum despite never having met me. I’d give anything to have that level of insight.

bullpost

And theres always :
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/gallery/2009/apr/09/famous-men-stack-heels

completedit

Mel Gibson looks laughable there. Tom Cruise face is such that doesn't matter that he's short.