Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

refreshing angle of attack considering I've been accused of being a Ryanair stooge so many times here on the sub-forum.

https://twitter.com/vcockpit
The pilots union likes using the words Ryanair and Streik on their twitter feed.

it should be safe enough now to book flights to Germany with Ryanair until Christmas as there are no national holidays between now and then.
Book away to your heart's content and I recommend visiting some of the Christmas markets like Nuremberg, Munich, Freiburg and Heidelberg. There are some serious bargains to be had.

Hard to tell what your angle is when you're posting in here using multiple identities but you were on here warning people against travelling with Ryanair at this time because of some industrial action that only existed in your own head. I just hope too many people on here weren't put off by your scaremongering, it's difficult enough for Ryanair to regain the trust of the travelling public coming up to the busiest time of year without you stirring up imaginary disputes that could undermine that confidence.

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

you're posting in here using multiple identities

What identities would these be now? Name them. Bulletin Board Admins would have means of confirming the origin of posts.
Once again, an interesting angle considering other people have commented on my single user being the contributor with the highest participation to this specific thread and from that incorrectly inferring that I'm a company Stooge.
You appear to be just trying to sling whatever mud you can in the hope that some will stick.

Jack1985

Things getting very, very interesting!

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/1101/1007999-ryanair-netherlands/

L1011

If you suspect sockpuppet accounts, report them, don't make accusations on thread. A card will be issued when I'm at a PC as I can't do it mobile

rivegauche

This Dutch report gives more information but a translator is required.
https://www.daskapital.nl/5152323/hoppa-rechter-verbiedt-wraakactie-ryanair-sluiting-basis-eindhoven-verboden/

Seems like Ryanair can't demand transfer so it can supposedly make them redundant according to Dutch labour laws or it can keep them employed with no or low flying hours. One for HR and the lawyers to work out. The Judge can't compel them to operate a base from Holland so there is no big win here for the employees.

rivegauche

https://www.nu.nl/ondernemen/5547452/ryanair-zegt-basis-luchthaven-eindhoven-toch-gaan-sluiten.htm

Another Dutch report.
Interesting in that it quotes Ryanair sources as saying closure of base will proceed as planned and judgement appealed.

Actual ruling:
https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBOBR:2018:5330&showbutton=true&keyword=Ryanair

IngazZagni

Ryanair appeal everything but according to that court document you posted if they lose then they will have to pay each pilot €250,000 for an involuntary base change and €50,000 per month if they lose their licence validity as a result of this. Big win for the pilots.
The whole Eindhoven base closure is a sham anyway. Closing the base but maintaining capacity. They made it too obvious. Current summer schedules show Eindhoven base reopening next summer.


Elsewhere all pilots in Germany will be directly employed by the company by the end of the year. That's another big win for the pilots.

Ryanair being investigated in Poland for forcing staff onto bogus self employment contracts to operate for Ryanairs Polish wholly owned subsidiary Ryanair Sun.

https://www.ft.com/content/b8f77f16-d865-11e8-ab8e-6be0dcf18713

That has happened in a country that was not unionised. I hope the staff know how to prevent this in future or maybe even reverse it.

Edit: apologies that may be behind a paywall. I'll try and find another article.

rivegauche

IngazZagni wrote: »

Ryanair appeal everything but according to that court document you posted if they lose then they will have to pay each pilot €250,000 for an involuntary base change and €50,000 per month if they lose their licence validity as a result of this. Big win for the pilots.

Can't you see why the Dutch ruling will be successfully appealed. It dictates that they never shut down the base, ever, never. It dictates that those 16 pilots will be paid forever regardless of how unprofitable it may be. It says nothing about redundancy which is the obvious result of base closure so the pilots can't rely on being employed by Ryanair for the rest of their lives.
The appeal will be heard long before those penalties of loss of currency need to be addressed.
Basically the Judgement is constructed to invite the parties to read between the lines, lodge appeal but continue paying the salaries while the appeal is waiting to be heard.
Judgement is interesting to other pilots as you can see what all 16 pilots are earning monthly.

billy few mates

Maybe the current Ryanair business model just isn't suited the German or Dutch markets where labour costs and trade unionism is so strong...?

rivegauche

Read the court ruling because it deals with the complaint as presented about forced relocation resulting from base closure and not the actual closure of the Eindhoven base. There is no glorious victory for those 16 pilots here because they simply hadn't the grounds to bring a court case which deals explicitly with base closure. These pilots needs to brush off their CVs because their time in the employ of Ryanair is coming to an end.

The E.U. was historically known as the Common Market; Understand what a Common Market is and you'll understand why statements like "Maybe the current Ryanair business model just isn't suited the German or Dutch markets" are nonsensical. Ryanair and other ULCCs can ply their trade where ever they damn please and erecting illegal barriers to trade will not be ultimately successful.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Read the court ruling because it deals with the complaint as presented about forced relocation resulting from base closure and not the actual closure of the Eindhoven base. There is no glorious victory for those 16 pilots here because they simply hadn't the grounds to bring a court case which deals explicitly with base closure. These pilots needs to brush off their CVs because their time in the employ of Ryanair is coming to an end.

The E.U. was historically known as the Common Market; Understand what a Common Market is and you'll understand why statements like "Maybe the current Ryanair business model just isn't suited the German or Dutch markets" are nonsensical. Ryanair and other ULCCs can ply their trade where ever they damn please and erecting illegal barriers to trade will not be ultimately successful.

Indeed they can, as every business is fully entitled to as long as they respect the fundamentals of the market.
My low cost Pound Shop business model would work very well on the main Street in Longford town where rents are cheap and labour costs are low, that doesn't mean it will work on Grafton Street where rents and labour costs are higher.
Germany is an expensive place to live and work, taxes are higher but the social benefits are good. You can't really blame someone for wanting to be in FTE to reap those benefits as opposed to some sort of an arm's length self employed contract where they don't receive those benefits.

billy few mates

IngazZagni wrote: »

Ryanair being investigated in Poland for forcing staff onto bogus self employment contracts to operate for Ryanairs Polish wholly owned subsidiary Ryanair Sun.

https://www.ft.com/content/b8f77f16-d865-11e8-ab8e-6be0dcf18713

That has happened in a country that was not unionised. I hope the staff know how to prevent this in future or maybe even reverse it.

Edit: apologies that may be behind a paywall. I'll try and find another article.

Interesting article thanks, it’s not accessible via that link but if you Google the key words it takes you straight to it with no paywall.

Comhrá

From PPRune:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/610789-ryanair-pilot-strike-10.html#post10298736

Today, (Nov. 1st) at 1100 CET (1000Z) a judge in the Netherlands will present a ruling on the Ryanair base closure at Eindhoven. The pilot union in NL has asked for a legal ruling in this matter on short notice, because Ryanair claims it can close bases OUTSIDE of Ireland, based on Irish law. The pilot union claims that Dutch law is appliccable at Eindhoven. (implying that a base closure is not possible just like that based on local labor law, workers rights, employer legal responsibility.)
Expect some fireworks, regardless the outcome. Will keep you posted.

This is going to be interesting: a Dutch judge just ruled that Ryanair may not close its base at Eindhoven. The judge deemed it likely that the base closure was a revenge exercise, pilots must continue to be paid and kept current. I wonder what MOL's next move will be. In Dutch: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/11/01/ryanair-moet-basis-eindhoven-openhouden-a2753562

rivegauche

https://twitter.com/VNVPresident/status/1058287329335480320

Letter dated yesterday.

Ryanair is proceeding to make Eindhoven pilots redundant. offering them a mobile contract on a purely voluntary basis. 5 on, 5 off mobile contact is not as sweet a deal as a base in Eindhoven but better than Kaunus or sitting around not earning.

edit: perhaps the options for base transfer are limited to the infamous Kaunus because in recent months Ryanair has entered labour agreements at other bases and there is a seniority list in place at the more desirable Western European bases. I've said before on this thread that each country should be scrambling to get agreements with Ryanair before all the good stuff will be gone.

rivegauche

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/11/05/ryanair-ontslaat-een-zesde-van-cabinepersoneel-eindhoven-a2753942
Warning: Dutch website.

Ryanair proceeds with closure of Eindhoven base.
32 cabin crew agreed to voluntary relocation.
16 cabin crew in probationary period are let go without legal consequence.
Remainder of 98 cabin crew...unknown...waiting to be fired it seems.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/ryanair-basis-eindhoven-nu-dicht-piloten-zitten-thuis
Warning: Dutch website

according to this none of the 16 Pilots in the court case have accepted voluntary relocation and are at home available waiting for a call from Ryanair to come in to work.
Ryanair have returned 1000 slots at the airport which will probably be taken up by other airlines waiting.
49 pilots were based here so there are about 33 pilots who are either on probation or on contractor contracts and they have to seek other employment within or outside Ryanair but not at Eindhoven. Some have already done so.

rivegauche

rivegauche wrote: »

This german report which is fairly dull reading indicates it will be easier to form a workers council for staff of airlines in the absence of a formal pay contract which is a very welcome development which safeguards the rights of workers not just in Ryanair but in all airlines which operate in Germany:
http://www.airliners.de/arbeitsminister-heil-betriebsraete-personal/47317

Seems like Ryanair Employees won't get workers council representation because other German airlines are lobbying against the proposed change as referenced in this report:
https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/handel-konsumgueter/tarifgespraeche-gewerkschaft-beklagt-personalfuehrung-durch-angst-und-schrecken-bei-ryanair/23385582.html

Other things to take from this report:
German Unions will visit Ryanair in middle November and there will be not one but two mediators with a view to completing negotiations by end of November.

The report suggests that the closure of Eindhoven and Bremen has put fear in to employees so Ryanair will probably be happy to leave the Eindhoven staff stew for a while longer as it helps them with the German negotiations.

"Angst und Schreken" is basically translated as "Angst and scare/fear/terror"

rivegauche

The cabin crew who staged a photograph of them sleeping on the floor have been dismissed if this is to be believed:

https://okdiario.com/economia/empresas/2018/11/06/ryanair-despide-seis-tripulantes-que-difundieron-polemica-foto-durmiendo-suelo-3315525


While I think dismissal is the correct response from HR I'd have never been able to do it myself and would have opted for some sort of disciplinary punishment.

Tenger

rivegauche wrote: »

The cabin crew who staged a photograph of them sleeping on the floor have been dismissed if this is to be believed...........
...........
...........
While I think dismissal is the correct response from HR I'd have never been able to do it myself and would have opted for some sort of disciplinary punishment.

I think the Ryanair HR dept would class dismissal as disciplinary punishment.

rivegauche

Tenger wrote: »

I think the Ryanair HR dept would class dismissal as disciplinary punishment.

They would. I'm not built for HR. They're a different breed.

billy few mates

The floggings will continue until morale improves...

Wheety

Confirmed anyway.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/1106/1009097-ryanair-crew-madrid/

Fair play to Ryanair. The video was ridiculous. Other crew members just looking at them. They were on the ground for 10 seconds and then said they were sleeping on the floor.

ted1

rivegauche wrote: »

The cabin crew who staged a photograph of them sleeping on the floor have been dismissed if this is to be believed:

https://okdiario.com/economia/empresas/2018/11/06/ryanair-despide-seis-tripulantes-que-difundieron-polemica-foto-durmiendo-suelo-3315525


While I think dismissal is the correct response from HR I'd have never been able to do it myself and would have opted for some sort of disciplinary punishment.

In no way could they have been left in the pay role.

To intentional harm and give bad press with the intent of damaging a company is a clear case for dismissal.

Tenger

Wheety wrote: »

Confirmed anyway.
....................
Fair play to Ryanair. The video was ridiculous. Other crew members just looking at them. They were on the ground for 10 seconds and then said they were sleeping on the floor.

Fair play to them. 8 plastic seats for 24 crew is suitable overnight accomodation for your workers. No need to look after those valuable pieces of walk on equipment.

ThunbergsAreGo

Tenger wrote: »

Fair play to them. 8 plastic seats for 24 crew is suitable overnight accomodation for your workers. No need to look after those valuable pieces of walk on equipment.

I find the "no rooms" excuse impossible to believe.

Malaga is on the mainland there are a number of hotels around.

No hotels Ryanair were prepared to pay for is more likely

LeChienMefiant

I don't want to tip the outrage over the edge in here, but look what happened to these passengers. And in one of the biggest cities in the world too!

Caution! Trigger warning! https://www.secretflying.com/posts/200-british-airways-passengers-endure-3-day-transit-nightmare/

Wheety

Tenger wrote: »

Fair play to them. 8 plastic seats for 24 crew is suitable overnight accomodation for your workers. No need to look after those valuable pieces of walk on equipment.

They didn't leave them there overnight.

Jack1985

Wheety wrote: »

They didn't leave them there overnight.

Ryanair's very own Peter Bellew admitted such. Before moving them to a VIP lounge in the early morning, which still isn't classed as a suitable rest area according to EASA.

LeChienMefiant

Jack1985 wrote: »

Ryanair's very own Peter Bellew admitted such. Before moving them to a VIP lounge in the early morning, which still isn't classed as a suitable rest area according to EASA.

Surely there are consequences if there were any EASA breaches?

View Profile

LeChienMefiant wrote:

Surely there are consequences if there were any EASA breaches?

Ryanair do what they like and worry about consequences later.

Front line staff are a very low priority for management.

LeChienMefiant

View Profile wrote: »

Ryanair do what they like and worry about consequences later.

Front line staff are a very low priority for management.

We keep hearing about these supposed breaches, but they can't be that serious if at all they happened.