Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche

What we are witnessing is a change in the business model at Ryanair from disruptive innovation to mainstream.
As a young company with nothing to lose it skirted the regulatory rules in all aspects of its business including labour and grew quickly.
Closing in on 130M passengers of which 40M will be in Italy it is able to consolidate. The Unions didn't impose their will on Ryanair, Ryanair is growing in to this model.
Disruptive innovators behave like Buccaneers of Industry. Ryanair is moving beyond this although they will for a long time still continue to try to innovate in a way that other staid establishment airlines do not.

Tenger

rivegauche wrote: »

Well, I'm not pro-union and I'm ambivalent toward the company ...............

With causing offence the post just above this does sound like a PR piece released by Ryanair, thus seemingly at odds with the statement Ive quoted.

That doesnt mean the sentiments are right or wrong, just a rose tinted view of current industrial unrest for Ryanair across Europe.

rivegauche

Google maturation of disruptors or "It's Better to Beg for Forgiveness than to Ask for Permission" and see what comes back. It is a known cycle. They all do it. They go for fast growth, establish a foothold/presence and then worry about regulations afterward e.g. Paypal/Ebay/AirBNB sharing Customer details with Revenue Commissioners, etc...

rivegauche

190 flights cancelled!?!
https://www.beurs.nl/nieuws/binnenland/7018267/ryanair-schrapt-190-vluchten-op-vrijdag/
Not exactly massive disruption if true and a lot less impressive than what the Unions had promised.

Tenger

Im not disputing the process.
Im querying the tone of your post, which in my opinion is not indicative of someone "ambivalent towards the company".

rivegauche

That's just your perception, not fact.

Anyhow, we're at the end of Summer. We were promised a summer of discontent. I've used the phrase damp squib before and I'll use it again. Damp Squib.
The Unions have been shown not to have a stranglehold on the company.
Ryanair are negotiating with the various parties around Europe with a pocket full of sweeties to give out. The company is expanding with a stream of 737s on order. The local workforces who agree terms with Ryanair get salary increase, local contracts, access to promotion paths for the planes which will find their way to their bases. If the planes get based in their country and the routes wash their faces in terms of occupancy and revenue then routes are only theirs to loose rather than within the gift of others.
When I board a Ryanair flight I wait until the end to board but with regard to labour negotiation I wouldn't want to be at the end of the queue as all the sweeties will be gone.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

That's just your perception, not fact.

Then everything is perception, including your own feeling that you are "ambivalent towards the company".

Thing is, as per previous discussions most posters on this thread would probably agree with Tenger and say you are firmly biased towards the point of view of Ryanair's senior management.

Either they'er all stupid/dishonest, or you are not that ambivalent, you can pick which option you go for but it is one of those 2.

rivegauche

As long as their strategy and the strategy of any LCC Management is to pursue a "load factor active, yield passive" model then I will always be looking favourably on their business model as it tallies with my best interests as a Consumer of the service they provide.

MoeJay

How many flights were cancelled due to industrial action in Ryanair in 2017 vs 2018?

Given the state of play as it is now across Europe your perception of a "damp squib" is a stretch.

Their business model, despite what the PR might say, is to make as much return for the shareholders as possible. Simple as.

Gavin "shels"

Is there a list of the flights cancelled anywhere?

Tenger

Gavin shels wrote: »

Is there a list of the flights cancelled anywhere?

I doubt Ryanair will want to record that info (EU261 comp) but off top of head can’t think of a website that would track those stats.




And to rivegauche, very true, that opinion is very much “my perception, not fact” hence why I stated that in my post.
I am not the type to present my opinion as fact.

Gavin "shels"

Tenger wrote: »

I doubt Ryanair will want to record that info (EU261 comp) but off top of head can’t think of a website that would track those stats.

.

Imagined so.

Got my parents sorted for flights home from their holidays... Double the price with Aer Lingus and an extra day accommodation to pay... hopefully they can get their refund off Ryanair asap. Not holding our breath.

IngazZagni

rivegauche wrote: »

I've used the phrase damp squib before and I'll use it again. Damp Squib. .

You did indeed use this before. I believe it was for the Irish strikes. The vast majority of flights operated as normal and you claimed the union had no strength and Ryanair were winning. YET, Ryanair conceded 3rd party mediation which resulted in an agreement which union members overwhelmingly voted in favor of.

Why was that? Well in my opinion it's because the impact of a strike cannot be quantified in numbers of cancelled flights. Just the announcement of strikes or threats of future strikes has a huge effect on the reputation of a company and more importantly a big impact on forward bookings putting downward pressure on prices and thus yield. That is the real reason they caved. The same could happen here if they keep the pressure on.

As for "pilots commandeering overwing exits". Thanks for the laugh. It was quite clearly due to a technical restriction as confirmed by Ryanair themselves.

rivegauche

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-publishes-its-offer-to-pilots-cabin-crew/

a portion quoted below:

Ryanair has also submitted a competition complaint to the European Commission, calling for an investigation of the anti-competitive behaviour of certain competitor airline crew, unions and lobby groups, who are actively impeding Ryanair’s negotiations with its pilots/cabin crew and who are organising repeated strikes in an effort to damage Ryanair’s business and customer confidence, for the benefit of Ryanair’s competitors.

Ryanair has made significant progress over the past 9 months in negotiations with trade unions across Europe, which include:

– Irish recognition agreement with FORSA union, covering pilots, and cabin crew.

– Irish mediation agreement covering pilot seniority, promotions, and base transfers.

– Recognition and CLA agreements for all Ryanair pilots based in Italy.

– Recognition and CLA agreements for all cabin crew based in Italy.

– Recognition agreement with BALPA covering all UK based pilots.

– Recognition agreement with Unite covering all UK based cabin crew.

– Recognition agreement with Verdi to cover German cabin crew.

Despite all this progress in a short 9-month period, Ryanair continues to face significant impediments in certain countries where competitor airline pilots and cabin crew are interfering in negotiations, or blocking progress, up to and including organising unnecessary strikes, most notably;

– In Spain, Norwegian cabin crew in Alicante are organising these cabin crew strikes.

– In Portugal, TAP cabin crew are organising these strikes.

– In the Netherlands, the pilots union insist that a KLM pilot negotiates with Ryanair.

– In Sweden, pilot unions refused to meet unless a Braathens pilot is invited.

Ryanair has complained that some 8% of its (450,000) customers are facing strikes and flight disruptions on Fri 28th Sept over demands made 2 weeks ago by these competitor airline pilots and cabin crew, which Ryanair has already agreed to, including:

– Local contracts in Belgium, Netherlands, Spain and Germany in early 2019.

– Local law and local tax as part of a CLA in early 2019.

– National seniority lists, similar to that agreed in Ireland.

– Base transfer agreements based on seniority (as already agreed in Ireland).

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

I don't need to continue allowing you to drag the thread off-topic. I've established that the response as presented is not credible.

Moderators decide what is and isn't off-topic, thanks.

rivegauche

L1011 wrote: »

Moderators decide what is and isn't off-topic, thanks.

Steve set the terms in a mod note to post 1 on thread.


https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryanair/ryanair-to-accept-local-contracts-as-early-as-2019-only-3-or-4-cancellations-in-belgium-on-friday/

Belguim practically unaffected on Friday.

The Unions action have been shown to have no muscle. Limited ability to affect schedules and limited ability to influence investor behaviour. At this stage it looks like they would have been better off going in to negotiations without calling strikes as the fear of the unknown would have had more effect on Management.

With regard to the mechanics of how to run an industrial dispute this is a cautionary tale for the Unions.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Steve set the terms in a mod note to post 1 on thread.

That still doesn't make you a moderator.

rivegauche

See page 183 of https://investor.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ryanair-FY-2018-Annual-Report.pdf

Tax paid for FY2018 was 118.9m.

The result of this ineffective bitter campaign by employees against their Employer is that for the coming financial year Ryanair will be contributing considerably less to the Revenue Commissioners than it otherwise might have.

The national household could well have done with a larger contribution as there is not much left to go around for worthy causes after Presidential Per-Diems and XMAS "bonuses" are paid.

FY19 guidance is adjusted downward.
https://uk.webfg.com/news/news-and-announcements/ryanair-annual-profit-up-10-but-fy19-guidance-cut--3303872.html

Should I be cheering the employees on?

IngazZagni

rivegauche wrote: »

See page 183 of https://investor.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ryanair-FY-2018-Annual-Report.pdf

Tax paid for FY2018 was 118.9m.

The result of this ineffective bitter campaign by employees against their Employer is that for the coming financial year Ryanair will be contributing considerably less to the Revenue Commissioners than it otherwise might have.

The national household could well have done with a larger contribution as there is not much left to go around for worthy causes after Presidential Per-Diems and XMAS "bonuses" are paid.

FY19 guidance is adjusted downward.
https://uk.webfg.com/news/news-and-announcements/ryanair-annual-profit-up-10-but-fy19-guidance-cut--3303872.html

Should I be cheering the employees on?

What? FY18 finished at the end of March this year. We are currently in Ryanairs FY19 which runs until end of March. All of this was before the staff went on any strike. The increase in staff costs was because of Ryanairs own cockup which forced them to increase salarys to keep people and attract new staff.

rivegauche

You don't understand the post.

I provide metrics for tax paid in the previous tax year.
I point out that it was paid to Revenue Commissioners.
I point out that profit is guided downward for coming year; this can be in large part attributed to Industrial Action.
I'd expect you to infer from that that not only Ryanair but Ireland has been hurt by the acting-out of the Unions.

IngazZagni

rivegauche wrote: »

You don't understand the post.

I provide metrics for tax paid in the previous tax year.
I point out that it was paid to Revenue Commissioners.
I point out that profit is guided downward for coming year; this can be in large part attributed to Industrial Action.
I'd expect you to infer from that that not only Ryanair but Ireland has been hurt by the acting-out of the Unions.

The profit for FY19 was adjusted downwards back in May long before any of the current strikes were announced.

rivegauche

If you listened to the press conferences since late last year you would have heard Ryanair Management were warning with a high degree of certainty that there would be industrial action at peak times.

IngazZagni

rivegauche wrote: »

If you listened to the press conferences since late last year you would have heard Ryanair Management were warning with a high degree of certainty that there would be industrial action at peak times.

So the profit decrease is nothing to do with increased competition, higher oil prices or the timing of Easter next year being in FY20? Ok then.

rivegauche

Peter Bellew said "forward bookings are...damaged by rolling strikes by Irish pilots.”"

https://www.ft.com/content/05038740-8fde-11e8-bb8f-a6a2f7bca546

So yes, in vain pursuit of their objectives Irish trade union activists have damaged Ireland's tax take during Ryanair's FY19.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

You don't understand the post.

I provide metrics for tax paid in the previous tax year.
I point out that it was paid to Revenue Commissioners.
I point out that profit is guided downward for coming year; this can be in large part attributed to Industrial Action.
I'd expect you to infer from that that not only Ryanair but Ireland has been hurt by the acting-out of the Unions.

You do realise you're arguing with yourself now..?

First you say the union action has had no effect but now you're saying it hurts Ryanair (and Ireland :rolleyes: ), which is it..?

No wait, don't answer that...:rolleyes:

Brendan Bendar

Just wondering.. how long it this rubbish go on for?

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

See page 183 of https://investor.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ryanair-FY-2018-Annual-Report.pdf

Tax paid for FY2018 was 118.9m.

The result of this ineffective bitter campaign by employees...

Not sure the pilots or their union would describe it as 'ineffective' seeing as it achieved their aims and gave them exactly what they were asking for... :D:D

rivegauche

They achieved only what was established as achievable by external factors, not by their strike actions. Their strike actions only served to destroy wealth.

They'll get the local contracts because it has been or was due to be decided by the highest courts in the various lands around Europe, not because they could only ground a small proportion of Ryanair flights on any given strike-day.
They'll get their local contracts but not many of them will get local contracts with Ryanair but rather local contracting companies and to keep the cost base low Ryanair is spinning up their cheaper cost bases in more employer favourable countries in Europe.
They got some sort of seniority because it costs Ryanair nothing.
They'll get their pay rises because the free-market demands, not Union extortion.

This strike action due to it's limited level of effectivity has been a disaster for the Unions. Ryanair faced them down, divided them and one by one the Unions came and made their peace with their employer. It cost the company many tens of millions to face them down but they did it with renewed approval of their investors and because Ryanair looses tens of millions and is paying around 11% tax on profit in Ireland, Ireland looses millions in direct tax receipts before the cost of lost Tourism and business travel to Ireland is counted.
The cost to Ryanair of not facing down the Unions would have been considerably more than what they lost over the last year. If they had given an inch the Pilots would have taken a nautical mile.

Of course the Union apologists are going to portray this as a majestic victory when it is anything but. You'll hear the false bravado from them for the next few months but in coming years future workplace discussions will be conducted in a less adversarial fashion because they now know that their employer is willing and capable of biting back.

Tenger

Thanks for clarifying your perception of the situation.
I dont agree with that opinion but you are free to have it.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

They achieved only what was established as achievable by external factors, not by their strike actions. Their strike actions only served to destroy wealth.

They'll get the local contracts because it has been or was due to be decided by the highest courts in the various lands around Europe, not because they could only ground a small proportion of Ryanair flights on any given strike-day.
They'll get their local contracts but not many of them will get local contracts with Ryanair but rather local contracting companies and to keep the cost base low Ryanair is spinning up their cheaper cost bases in more employer favourable countries in Europe.
They got some sort of seniority because it costs Ryanair nothing.
They'll get their pay rises because the free-market demands, not Union extortion.

This strike action due to it's limited level of effectivity has been a disaster for the Unions. Ryanair faced them down, divided them and one by one the Unions came and made their peace with their employer. It cost the company many tens of millions to face them down but they did it with renewed approval of their investors and because Ryanair looses tens of millions and is paying around 11% tax on profit in Ireland, Ireland looses millions in direct tax receipts before the cost of lost Tourism and business travel to Ireland is counted.
The cost to Ryanair of not facing down the Unions would have been considerably more than what they lost over the last year. If they had given an inch the Pilots would have taken a nautical mile.

Of course the Union apologists are going to portray this as a majestic victory when it is anything but. You'll hear the false bravado from them for the next few months but in coming years future workplace discussions will be conducted in a less adversarial fashion because they now know that their employer is willing and capable of biting back.

Thanks for clearing that up for us...