Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

Irish Steve

OK, In recent weeks, I have been somewhat distracted by things outside of Boards.ie, having caught up with the backlog, this thread has caught my attention for the wrong reasons.

While there are still a lot of ongoing discussions, and the legal systems may force more changes, for most countries, both sides in the Ryanair dispute seem to have managed to come to a workable accomodation, the longevity of which is somewhat unproven at the moment, but the activity in this thread knows no bounds, and to be blunt, the signal to noise ratio has become unsustainable, and we really need to get back on track.

We have a limited number of posters who seem determined to try and promote their angle on what may or may not be happening, and the diversions we have taken around various holding patterns over the last couple of weeks has reached the absurd point, and several posts that were made a while ago now would have been sanctioned had I seen them earlier.

On that basis, I will say very clearly to the protagonists that if there is not a significant improvement in the quality and style of the posts being made, posting freedoms in this thread will be withdrawn or removed.

rivegauche

https://ortenau.news/pilotengewerkschaft-ruft-zu-streiks-bei-ryanair-auf/

Vereinigung Cockpit german pilots union going for another ambush strike on Friday, i.e. tomorrow.

A large proportion of passengers would have already checked-in at this stage for their flight, booked their train to the airport, booked their hire car on the far side for their trip which the Unions are now trying to ruin with just over 24 hours notice.
Media reporting agreements across Europe for Ryanair and its employees so it would be hard to convince the public that this strike was absolutely necessary.
I don't need to undermine public support for VC when they are so capable of doing it all by themselves.

When your adversary is also widely depicted as something akin to Prince Joffrey using the travelling public as a proverbial whipping boy is hardly an effective strategy.

rivegauche

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/--871863.html

Ryanair letter to Vereinigung Cockpit:
Ryanair display willingness to engage, flexibility on mediation, eagerness to conclude quickly.
VC call strike and wish to be able to drag out discussions so that there is a threat of strikes over Christmas.

note the very last line of the letter "cc All German Pilots".

Ryanair are mulling over four more bases in France, adding service in Italy, Prague and most everywhere else. If you are a German Ryanair flight officer waiting to switch seats you won't want Ryanair diverting the steady flow of new planes away from Germany to other countries forcing you to uproot yourself to chase opportunities elsewhere.

billy few mates

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/--871863.html

It all looks very reasonable until you get to the second last point where Ryanair attempts to dictate the make up of the union negotiation party.
Did they not learn anything from the DUB dispute...?

rivegauche

They've learnt how to avoid EU261 compensation. They show they are actively engaging in negotiation and at this stage it looks like they'd be happy to get further decisions regarding liability further developing on the recent Court rulings with regard to what constitutes wildcat/ambush strikes.
Imagine if a Union issued an ultimatum to another party or a judge to respond within 24 hours to a complex technical matter.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

They've learnt how to avoid EU261 compensation. They show they are actively engaging in negotiation and at this stage it looks like they'd be happy to get further decisions regarding liability further developing on the recent Court rulings with regard to what constitutes wildcat/ambush strikes.
Imagine if a Union issued an ultimatum to another party or a judge to respond within 24 hours to a complex technical matter.

Imagine if a union tried to dictate to the employer who they could and couldn't have on their negotiation team...?

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Imagine if a union tried to dictate to the employer who they could and couldn't have on their negotiation team...?

Imagine if a Lufhansa or TUI pilot or his workmate flying a route on which there was competition with Ryanair causing low load factor on that route and endangering its existence negotiating to 110% for the best unattainable deal for the Ryanair pilots he or she is supposedly representing.

In news today I note Eurowings announce 3 new routes. That is very tame in comparison to the aggressive expansion plans of Ryanair. If Ryanair weren't follwing a "build it and they will come" approach to network development there would be an awful lot more wannabe pilots with no access to jobs in the legacy carriers.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

Imagine if a Lufhansa or TUI pilot or his workmate flying a route on which there was competition with Ryanair causing low load factor on that route and endangering its existence negotiating to 110% for the best unattainable deal for the Ryanair pilots he or she is supposedly representing.

You’re forgetting that behind the union are Ryanair pilots and that the union wouldn’t be in that position if pilots didn’t support what it is doing.

Saying that pilots would allow the union to send representatives which won’t defend their interest as Ryanair pilots is calling those pilots stupid (and incidentally, saying that you know better than they do themselves what is good for them is not exactly a very humble stance to take).

So yeah we obviously agree that sending a group of only active Lufthansa pilots to negotiate wouldn’t be the best think to do (and I honestly doubt the pilots/union would do that!), but in any case the point is that it is purely up to Ryanair’s pilots to decide who they are sending to represent them, and the company doesn’t have any vetoing power on this.

rivegauche

If it takes 6 months or a year to resolve issues which surprisingly prove to be intractable and TUI or Lufthansa operations enjoy respite then so be it because, after all, the Union Reps are only doing what is in the interests of their more than 10,000 VC members of which only about 400 are Ryanair pilots.

Pilots were CC'd on that Ryanair letter for a reason.

rivegauche

I really wouldn't want to be part of a Club where 19 out of 20 members don't wish me every success in my future endeavours.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

If it takes 6 months or a year to resolve issues which surprisingly prove to be intractable and TUI or Lufthansa operations enjoy respite then so be it because, after all, the Union Reps are only doing what is in the interests of their more than 10,000 VC members of which only about 400 are Ryanair pilots.

Pilots were CC'd on that Ryanair letter for a reason.

Again, the bottom line is that German Ryanair pilots are entitled to chose who is representing them and what they think is best for themselves, and they are doing just that.

Everything else is just noise.

rivegauche

German cabincrew striking tomorrow and showing similar contempt as the Pilots for their Customers.
https://www.fonds-antizyklik-sjb.de/auch-flugbegleiter-von-ryanair-in-deutschland-streiken/2018/09/27/

rivegauche

M O'L is still unmistakably himself despite the poor audio quality.
https://youtu.be/UBMWpouBLpI

Unions in Belgium try to embarrass him in to scurrying away from a video camera and he stands his ground and shouts them down.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

I really wouldn't want to be part of a Club where 19 out of 20 members don't wish me every success in my future endeavours.

Then why are so many of them union members...?

billy few mates

The pilots unions in all countries are made up of pilots from practically all the airlines in that particular country, it stands to reason that the various committees and groups within those unions would compromise of members who work for a range of companies that make up that union. There's nothing new here, that's how all unions work, they represent the profession, not any one particular company.
Ryanair would have known this when they agreed to recognise unions, if it was such a big stumbling block for them they should never have agreed to recognise them.
They can't honestly be so arrogamtb or naive as to think they could agree to recognise unions and then think that they could dictate to those unions who gets to represent them...?

Gingham1

See media reports regarding Ryanair cutting and downsizing German bases using planes based overseas to retain routes. The perceived 'wisdom' on this forum was that it wouldn't or couldn't be done.

john boye

Gingham1 wrote: »

See media reports regarding Ryanair cutting and downsizing German bases using planes based overseas to retain routes. The perceived 'wisdom' on this forum was that it wouldn't or couldn't be done.

You're simplifying quite a bit there. I believe what was stated was the early departures would have to be scrapped as there was no chance of FR nightstopping pilots in the German cities. It was never stated that the routes couldn't be operated by crews from other bases

Gingham1

john boye wrote: »

You're simplifying quite a bit there. I believe what was stated was the early departures would have to be scrapped as there was no chance of FR nightstopping pilots in the German cities. It was never stated that the routes couldn't be operated by crews from other bases

Not simplifying anything. The poster in question was adamant that it couldn't be done and Unions had no need to fear that their employer could counteract in such a fashion and heaped insults upon those who disagreed with them because the possessed better knowledge of the aviation industry.
Sad for the crew but it is no skin off the noses of the union negotiators who prefer to strike than negotiate.

john boye

Gingham1 wrote: »

Not simplifying anything. The poster in question was adamant that it couldn't be done and Unions had no need to fear that their employer could counteract in such a fashion and heaped insults upon those who disagreed with them because the possessed better knowledge of the aviation industry.
Sad for the crew but it is no skin off the noses of the union negotiators who prefer to strike than negotiate.

Fair enough, perhaps you're right. I'll admit I sort of zoned out on the thread as it went on. You however have clearly been following the thread closely for someone who only registered today and whose 2 posts are both in this thread and both strongly resemble the rhetoric of a particular prolific poster in it.

billy few mates

Very worrying indeed...

Gingham1

I see an article on investegate.co.uk

Industrial unrest has depressed share price. This article shows that Ryanair has purchased and cancelled more shares bought for less than 12 euro.
Although the Unions would like O'Leary and Bondermann to be turfed out their percentage shareholding and control of the company is actually increasing as a side effect of industrial action.

rivegauche

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryanair/barcelona-court-rules-that-ryanair-does-not-have-to-pay-eu261-compensation-for-internal-strikes/

Barcelona court rules that Ryanair does not have to pay EU261 compensation for internal strikes

Ryanair appear to be paying a visit to all the courts in Europe with the intention of de-fanging the Unions.

rivegauche

http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-tarif-verhandlungen-ufo/47107

Ryanair cancel negotiation meetings with Cabin Crew union, UFO, in Germany.

Unfounded statements by the Union which questioned the safety of their operation with regard to Cabin Crew rightly offended them.
This appears to be a line which staff should not cross. You can call the company management any sort of rude name as they appear to have no reputation to salvage but questioning Ryanair's safety practices is bad form because Ryanair is proud of its reputation as one of the safest airlines in the world..

rivegauche

https://www.aero.de/news-30128/Ryanair-zu-Schlichtung-in-Deutschland-bereit.html

Ryanair is still open to mediation with Verdi and VC in Germany.

This offer has been open for quite a while. The Unions simply don't want to sit down to mediation as they then lose the ability to call strikes.

rivegauche

An ill-wind that blows no good:
Johan Lundgren, easyJet chief executive, said: "We have benefited from a number of one-off events in 2018, including the bankruptcies of Monarch and Air Berlin, as well as Ryanair cancellations.”

Easyjet aren't exactly a large Irish employer. I wouldn't be cheering them on at the expense of job opportunities in North County Dublin.

rivegauche

Dutch Union gives ultimatum to Ryanair to keep their single Dutch base open which is closing on 1st November.

https://www.upinthesky.nl/2018/10/05/ultimatum-fnv-moet-ryanair-basis-eindhoven-open-houden/

I don't see what tools they have at their disposal to inflict significant harm on Ryanair.

L1011

Get a blog if you wish to linkdump

rivegauche

https://www.verdi.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/++co++cee18df2-cc72-11e8-b80a-525400b665de

Ver.di were in Dublin negotiating with Ryanair yesterday but going is tough and they'll decide to go for continued negotiation or call a strike in the coming week.

Q: Why the coming week?
A: 1st November, All Saint's Day is on a Thursday and is a public holiday in 5 or 6 European Countries. Friday is what would be called in Germany a Bruckentag or bridge day where you take 1 day holiday for 4 days out of the office.
1st November is the next good strike day.

Shouldn't affect Irish Customers greatly if a strike is called that day.

consumer advice: Lap up all the good cheap flights available on Ryanair but be careful where you fly with Ryanair on that weekend.

billy few mates

https://m.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/ryanair-announces-15-new-routes-from-ireland-in-biggest-ever-summer-schedule-37409762.html

Ryanair announce new routes from Dublin and Cork for summer 2019 schedule

Link dumping without a comment to explain what the link is about is not appropriate, as mentioned earlier in the thread. If you can't be bothered to tell people what the link relates to, don't be surprised if the post gets deleted.

rivegauche

http://www.dhnet.be/dernieres-depeches/belga/tensions-sociales-chez-ryanair-les-syndicats-sont-parvenus-a-constituer-une-delegation-qui-va-negocier-avec-la-compagnie-5bbf654ccd70e3d2f61c8d5c

According to this there is a Belgium Union delegation in Dublin today to negotiate with Ryanair.

I would have expected that the unions would have agreed their strategy earlier than this but still positive and resolution of labour issues appears to be progressing.
Local Contracts appear to be a given as a youtube video I posted last week showed M O'L shouting at a Union member telling him to come to the table and negotiate and get his local contracts.