Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche

and in English:
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryanair/revolution-at-ryanair-collective-labour-agreement-with-italian-cabin-crew-according-to-italian-law/

I greet this with some trepidation as the Italian Unions have destroyed their own once great commercial airlines and the corpse of Alitalia is bleeding money out of the taxpayers of Italy but let us hope for the best.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

For a company that people here depict as being unwilling to engage ,Ryanair appear to be doing a hell of a lot of engagement.

http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-gewerkschaften/46798

More Unions recognised in Italy and contract agreements made.

Translation is along the lines of this:
Italian flight attendants form collective agreement. Content of the agreement whose duration last three years are unknown.
Another Union has called on flight attendants to strike.(???)

You might want to read other peoples’ opinions again if you don’t want to misrepresent them and reply to what you think others have said rather than what they have actually said.

As I explained in my previous post the problem is not about engaging (engaging with staff is a first step and has been happening for years, but if engagement never leads to any change it is pointless from the staff’s perspective). The problem is that in the past few years and especially the past few month, nothing meaningful has changed from Ryanair’s staff perspective *except when there were active strike threats*. So negotiating strictly under a strike threat is precisely the industrial relations model which has been promoted by Ryanair themselves with the way they have handled staff dissatisfaction until now.

I think most people would agree (and a few have expressed it here) that it is a bad model and strikes should be avoided, but at this stage the staff can’t be blamed for playing the card they’ve been dealt with. The ball is now in Ryanair’s hands and regaining trust from their employees that talking before striking is useful and can lead to meaningful changes is something which will take time and a number of practical exemples before the situation turns to more appeased industrial relations. In the short term it is clear there will be more strikes and no one should be surprised about that.

rivegauche

Ryanair is in the process of overhauling its Human Relations model. This began only a year ago.
Your criticism of the airline is profoundly unfair to the company, not that you care one jot.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

Ryanair is in the process of overhauling its Human Relations model. This began a only a year ago.
You criticism of the airline is profoundly unfair to the company, not that care one jot.

I’m just describing the facts and their consequences, and I didn’t see you explaining why you disagree besides saying it’s unfair. Do you for exemple dispute the fact that in the past couple of years no meaningful change has happened from the employees perspective except when there were active strike threats?

Fair enough if you do and then we have fundamental disagreement on the facts. But if you don’t disagree then the logical consequence is that for the forseable future the primary way for staff to make demands will be to strike.

rivegauche

When staff were willing to contract in to offering their services to Ryanair the Employer would form the opinion the positions they were offering were acceptable to the worker.
The feedback that it was more difficult to attract and retain workers was their motivation to adjust their employment model.
As an über-capitalistic organisation that is what is motivating Ryanair.
The great big super-tanker that is Ryanair takes time to change course and the decision to change course was taken one year ago with the impact of that now visible.

Bob24

So you are not disputing that in the past couple of years no meaningful change has happened from the employees perspective except when there were active strike threats?

That Ryanair is a large corporation which needs time to adjusts is true to some extend (of course you don’t change corporate culture in a day but on the other hand on many aspects I think Ryanair would be pround to call itself very reactive and adaptable).

Nevertheless the company/management created the current situation itself and only itself can fix it. Though luck if it takes time and there are consequences in the meantime, that’s what is called taking responsibility for one’s actions.

If you look at it from the employees’ perspective, with the precedents which have been set of nothing happening without strikes they will logically think that if they don’t maintain some pressure things will go back to how they were before. That situation will ease gradually as change happens (if Ryanair wants change) but it will naturally take time and there is no shortcut. It is a case of “we are where we are” and it is now time to accept this is the situation and take the gradual steps to address it.

rivegauche

I would advise you not to try to put words in my mouth.
I don't agree with you at all. The behaviour of the Unions has been disgraceful in the last year since Ryanair agreed to address their labour relations issues
That they would cause such misery for the travelling public disgusts me.
You are trying to spin a line that Industrial Action was unavoidable and therefore justified. The phrase "Industrial Action" is a euphemism for their abhorrent behaviour which hurts Innocent people who are not a party to their dispute.

THERE IS NOTHING NOBLE IN THE MANNER IN WHICH THOSE PEOPLE WENT ABOUT REACHING THEIR GOAL. They should remember that next time they decide they want to destroy people's plans to holiday or visit family just so as to exert pressure on their employer.

Bob24

I have no intention putting words in you mouth and am genuinely trying to understand your point of view.

Would you help me in doing so and answer yes or no to the question have have asked you twice already, do you dispute the fact that in the past couple of years no meaningful change has happened from the employees perspective except when there were active strike threats?

rivegauche

Bob24 wrote: »

I have no intention putting words in you mouth and am genuinely trying to understand your point of view.

Would you help me in doing so and answer yes or no to the question have have asked you twice already, do you dispute the fact that in the past couple of years no meaningful change has happened from the employees perspective except when there were active strike threats?

No. Unlike you my mid-term memory is functioning:
The sea change happened last year when it became obvious that the factor of production, Labour, was insufficient to deliver product to the market and flights needed to be cancelled without even a mention of a strike or a Trade Union in sight.
Can you remember that or do you just wish to establish the narrative that Unions are the reason why Ryanair has been giving its employees better terms and conditions.
Unions are trying to take credit for the effects of the Free Market and if staff are stupid enough to believe that the Unions delivered this to them then they deserve to loose their Union subs.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

No. Unlike you my mid-term memory is functioning:
The sea change happened last year when it became obvious that the factor of production, Labour, was insufficient to deliver product to the market and flights needed to be cancelled without even a mention of a strike or a Trade Union in sight.
Can you remember that or do you just wish to establish the narrative that Unions are the reason why Ryanair has been giving its employees better terms and conditions.
Unions are trying to take credit for the effects of the Free Market and if staff are stupid enough to believe that the Unions delivered this to them then they deserve to loose their Union subs.

My question was do you dispute the statement I made that in the past couple of years no meaningful change has happened from the employees perspective except when there were active strike threats?

You are replying no as in you don’t dispute it, but then you seem to be disputing it. Happy to engage but can you clarify what you mean?

rivegauche

correlation and causality.
You are not a Barrister in Court and I certainly will not be coerced in to agreeing with statements which are fundamentally incorrect.

Take away points:
Strikes caused unnecessary pain to innocents.
Unions are responsible for these strikes.
Ryanair addressed labour issues because they couldn't attract and retain staff.

Muahahaha

rivegauche wrote: »

correlation and causality.
You are not a Barrister in Court and I certainly will not be coerced in to agreeing with statements which are fundamentally incorrect.

Can you explain how the statement is fundamentally incorrect. Extraordinary claims need to be backed up with extraordinary proof. Please give us concrete examples of how the staff achieved meaningful change without the threat of a strike being present.

If you cant provide examples of how staff conditions improved without the threat of a strike then you are clearly spoofing. Which makes your claim that the strike was unavoidable even more shoddy, it was completely avoidable except for Ryanair management went into it gung-ho threatening the staff with redundancy. What the pilots achieved could have been achieved without the need for them going on strike but the management wouldnt listen. There was no need for any strike if they had of sat down with them earlier. Instead we had strikes and the share price has taken a fair old hit, something OLeary is going to have to explain to the AGM next week. It is no wonder he has banned the media, shareholders are furious at him for devaluing the company and their investments by not engaging with the pilots sooner.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

correlation and causality.
You are not a Barrister in Court and I certainly will not be coerced in to agreeing with statements which are fundamentally incorrect.

Take away points:
Strikes caused unnecessary pain to innocents.
Unions are responsible for these strikes.
Ryanair addressed labour issues because they couldn't attract and retain staff.

So are you disputing the statement that in the past couple of years no meaningful change has happened from the employees perspective except when there were active strike threats?

I am not trying to put words in you you mouth or to coherce you to think one way or another.

Quite the opposite I want to hear what you think directly from you and you still haven’t answered clearly.

Either yes you dispute or no you don’t. Before this is clear we can’t have any productive discussion as we don’t even know what we are talking about.

rivegauche

Muahahaha wrote: »

If you cant provide examples of how staff conditions improved without the threat of a strike then you are clearly spoofing.

Salary increases were given in the aftermath of the flight cancellations last year without threat of strike action. Salary increases cost money and is unarguable proof of an employer acting in good faith.

The rest of your post can be paraphrased as "ryanair are evil, boo hiss"

rivegauche

Bob24 wrote: »

So are you disputing the statement that in the past couple of years no meaningful change has happened from the employees perspective except when there were active strike threats?

I am not trying to put words in you you mouth or to coherce you to think one way or another.

Quite the opposite I want to hear what you think directly from you and you still haven’t answered clearly.

Either yes you dispute or no you don’t. Before this is clear we can’t have any productive discussion as we don’t even know what we are talking about.

You appear to have problems understanding very clear statements I have made.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

You appear to have problems understanding very clear statements I have made.

No problem here. I have asked a very clear yes/no question to which you haven’t replied. If you have a clear answer just typing “yes I dispute your statement” or “no I don’t dispute it” would be the easiest and quickest way for you to show that you have adressed the question and to move on in just 2 seconds. Anything else is more deflection and everyone can see that.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

correlation and causality.
You are not a Barrister in Court and I certainly will not be coerced in to agreeing with statements which are fundamentally incorrect.

Take away points:
Strikes caused unnecessary pain to innocents.
Unions are responsible for these strikes.
Ryanair addressed labour issues because they couldn't attract and retain staff.

If as you say 'the unions caused the strike' how come the affected members travelling public focused their anger squarely at the company rather than the pilots or their union..?

I remember following it quite closely on social media at the time and it was all one way traffic...

rivegauche

You are as bad as that Billy Two Mates.
I do not agree that the threat of Union action resulted in any long term change to HR policy. Ryanair Management agree to only that which they are comfortable with and which doesn't undermine their cost base and Unions would be very foolish to interpret Ryanair's actions otherwise.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

You are as bad as that Billy Two Mates.

:eek: :eek:

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Because people like you abuse social media platforms like Twitter or Facebook or boards.ie to push an agenda like Trade Union Movement control of critical infrastructure or My Nama or the trampling of the constitutional property rights of owners of vacant property, negative feminism, etc...

Care to back that up...?

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Care to back that up...?

Do I need to back it up. The two most prolific posters on this thread are you and me. The tenor of my posts are more neutral with regard to what the workers can realistically hope for, what the employer can realistically afford to concede and how the Employer can work around the issue while your posts only serve to portray Ryanair and most especially M O'L as the Devil incarnate. You are anything but even-handed.

View Profile

O'Leary is poison. Everyone knows that . His treatment of customers and staff is abysmal. That's fact!

I don't know any sane person who thinks otherwise.

...other than his senior management lackies.

rivegauche

View Profile wrote: »

O'Leary is poison. Everyone knows that . His treatment of customers and staff is abysmal. That's fact!

I don't know any sane person who thinks otherwise.

...other than his senior management lackies.

As a customer I'm grateful to him. I comply with the conditions attached to my flight and Ryanair allow me to travel considerably more often than I otherwise would be able to.
It is no coincidence that Aer Lingus were sending me mails this week advertising one way flights to Germany for 29 euro as competition from Ryanair forces them to drop prices to fill planes.
The travelling public have much to be thankful for.

L1011

rivegauche - calm down and/or take a day off the thread. Your posts have become unacceptably aggressive

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Do I need to back it up. The two most prolific posters on this thread are you and me. The tenor of my posts are more neutral with regard to what the workers can realistically hope for, what the employer can realistically afford to concede and how the Employer can work around the issue while your posts only serve to portray Ryanair and most especially M O'L as the Devil incarnate. You are anything but even-handed.

FYI I use neither Twitter or the Facebook although I followed events on Twitter I don't have an account on there so I don't contribute.
I took part in the debate on here about the strike as you did and I'd like to think I remained as 'neutral' as you clearly have.
I don't consider MOL "the devil incarnate" as you suggest, I said recently I greatly admire how he's taken Ryanair from a small Irish company to a world leading airline but I also said I think that it might be time for him to move on because I don't believe his management style is what's needed at stage of the company's development, but as I said, that's just my opinion.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

As a customer I'm grateful to him. I comply with the conditions attached to my flight and Ryanair allow me to travel considerably more often than I otherwise would be able to.
It is no coincidence that Aer Lingus were sending me mails this week advertising one way flights to Germany for 29 euro as competition from Ryanair forces them to drop prices to fill planes.
The travelling public have much to be thankful for.

I'm also grateful to him, I don't use Ryanair very often but it's absolutely true to say he's made travel very competitive and affordable on the airlines that I do use.
Long may it continue...

billy few mates

Never met the man but from what I've seen of him in the media it's fair to say that he can come across quite abrasive.
That may be part of his persona or it may be an act but while it may have been what was required when Ryanair was fighting for its place at the table I personally don't think it's what's required to take the company forward from here.
It's interesting to note there wasn't a word out of him during the Dublin pilots dispute apart from the time he appeared on the media announcing the relocation of the aircraft to Poland and the 'threat' of job losses. When that failed to have the desired effect and actually seemed to inflame the situation I don't recall ever seeing or hearing from him again after that.
Kenny Jacobs was the public face and voice of Ryanair during the dispute but at times it seemed like the rhetoric was all MOL.

rivegauche

http://www.itfglobal.org/en/news-events/press-releases/2018/september/ryanair-breaks-promise-to-respect-trade-union-rights-in-poland/

May be correct or not when you consider the website but shows how Ryanair will deal with labour issues.
Ryanair may recognise Unions in Poland but there won't be any more Ryanair employed staff in Poland than they absolutely need. There will be self-employed contractors supplying services to Ryanair in Poland with no Union representation.

It is obvious that Ryanair will try to base planes where the business environment is most business friendly be it expressed through tax laws, labour laws, environmental noise laws, staff expectations, etc...

Ryanair seem to be happy with the business environment in Ireland while Pilots are happy with their employment package so it might not be the end of the world and a busy base like Dublin with many opportunities allows many pilots to develop their careers within and afterward outside the firm.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

http://www.itfglobal.org/en/news-events/press-releases/2018/september/ryanair-breaks-promise-to-respect-trade-union-rights-in-poland/

May be correct or not when you consider the website but shows how Ryanair will deal with labour issues.
Ryanair may recognise Unions in Poland but there won't be any more Ryanair employed staff in Poland than they absolutely need. There will be self-employed contractors supplying services to Ryanair in Poland with no Union representation.

It is obvious that Ryanair will try to base planes where the business environment is most business friendly be it expressed through tax laws, labour laws, environmental noise laws, staff expectations, etc...

Ryanair seem to be happy with the business environment in Ireland while Pilots are happy with their employment package so it might not be the end of the world and a busy base like Dublin with many opportunities allows many pilots to develop their careers within and afterward outside the firm.

If they're not careful Ryanair could move all those Ryanair Sun aircraft to Dublin...
Oh, wait....:D

rivegauche

The Polish staff have been told to move to the new contracting companies in Poland by end of this month. The contract model is used by flag-carrier LOT in the Polish market.
Those contractors who do not join the new contracting company will probably be released once their contract with their current contracting company runs its course.
These are not the actions of a company in the face of the MIGHTY Unions despite how certain people here may wish to depict the situation.
They are the actions of a very pragmatic employer in a dynamic employment marketplace.