Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

billy few mates

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Yes you have made valid points and I am not defending FR, but.....but ... there are warped worlds on the ‘other side ‘too, one must realize.

I am on the go long enough to realize that, and what I conclude is that the moderates in these disputes are basically sidelined and those who have the bile to,instead of trying to further everyone’s cause,are bent on destroying the company,to satisfy their own view of society.

We have to realize that, otherwise any discussion is useless.

There are two sides to every story.

That said, a lot of bile has to be washed out of the FR system.

Will take a year at least to achieve equilibrium, at least a year.

This stuff has to wash through...

It was pointed out at the very start that Ryanair would be inexperienced in dealing with IR matters so the union suggested third party mediation.
Ryanair rejected this preferring instead to try and "take on the unions".
After several weeks of battle they found themselves hopelessly out of their depth in dealing with hardened professionals so eventually relented and agreed to third party intervention, industrial harmony has now been restored.

So yes the cancellations and misery could have been avoided.

Brendan Bendar

billy few mates wrote: »

It was pointed out at the very start that Ryanair would be inexperienced in dealing with IR matters so the union suggested third party mediation.
Ryanair rejected this preferring instead to try and "take on the unions".
After several weeks of battle they found themselves hopelessly out of their depth in dealing with hardened professionals so eventually relented and agreed to third party intervention, industrial harmony has now been restored.

So yes the cancellations and misery could have been avoided.

I never said they couldn’t , you seem very anxious to take me on on issues I have never gotten involved in.

Sorry if I have been wrong in that assessment,but the post you quoted from me seems to have nothing to do with your reply.

Just wondering like.....

Brendan Bendar

Hmmmm .....looks like the boot is going in.........

pc7

I’m listening to drive time, I thought it was all fixed yesterday. So what’s this now?

Brendan Bendar

pc7 wrote: »

I’m listening to drive time, I thought it was all fixed yesterday. So what’s this now?

Washing down PC,there's more staff in airlines than pilots.

The cabin crew and ground staff are there too and believe me they will have far more clout in this scenario.

They have to get their cut too, and rightly so in my opinion.

Like I said many times, this will rumble on for at least a year till it settles down.

The mistake they might make is to look for too much too soon, so things are quite finely balanced at the moment.

billy few mates

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I never said they couldn’t , you seem very anxious to take me on on issues I have never gotten involved in.

Sorry if I have been wrong in that assessment,but the post you quoted from me seems to have nothing to do with your reply.

Just wondering like.....

Apology accepted...

Brendan Bendar

billy few mates wrote: »

Apology accepted...

Yep, I got that one right.

Prominent_Dawg

Would it be safe to book flights with ryanair the first week in October, with the strikes that are being considered?

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Probably ok but I'd be wary of the Christmas period.

Gael23

I’m due to travel on September 22nd. If I book EI flights now my insurance won’t pay for it but they won’t be available when the strikes are announced.
Not really sure what to do.

Brendan Bendar

Gael23 wrote: »

I’m due to travel on September 22nd. If I book EI flights now my insurance won’t pay for it but they won’t be available when the strikes are announced.
Not really sure what to do.

Depends on how important your trip is, ie familay holiday or just day trip to somewhere.

Best listen to ‘news ‘ and make your decision then.

My gut feeling is Sept 22 should be clear as too close to organise anything.

jwcurtin

I'm very worried, flying home from STN to SNN; and back from DUB for an interview on the 26th, and of course I'm booked with Ryanair.

Going to sit back (hindsight may be 20/20) , but I can sense a disaster brewing :eek:.

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jwcurtin wrote:

I'm very worried, flying home from STN to SNN; and back from DUB for an interview on the 26th, and of course I'm booked with Ryanair.

No strike in Ireland or the UK so you should be grand.

rivegauche

https://www.aviation24.be/trade-unions/vereinigung-cockpit-vc/german-based-ryanair-pilots-planning-24-hour-strike-wednesday/

German pilots strike on Wednesday. VC want a mediator but not the one the Irish Pilots found acceptable and have the cheek to say that the Ryanair are the ones who are being unreasonable.
less than 48 hours notice. My thoughts are with all those poor members of the public who are having their travelling plans destroyed by Vereinigung Cockpit, not Ryanair.
FORSA/IALPA have found themselves some right bedfellows there.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

VC want a mediator but not the one the Irish Pilots found acceptable and have the cheek to say that the Ryanair are the ones who are being unreasonable.

Does he speak fluent German? If not I don’t see how he would be a reasonable choice, it is pretty basic stuff for employers/unions to negotiate and document employment conditions in the language of the country where the impacted staff is employed (in some countries, using another language would even be illegal).

rivegauche

What's the language of aviation?
If any reason was to be given for a mediator not being suitable you'd think it would be a lack of knowledge of aviation industry.
This is the unreasonable Ryanair that was able to reach agreement with Italian and Irish pilots.

VC are looking after their other 9500 members, not the pilots in Ryanair.
They're trying to hobble the LCCs who are gaining traction in the German market.
http://www.airliners.de/grosse-billigflieger-prozent/46683

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

What's the language of aviation?

How is it relevant?

These pilots are employed in Germany. The language of Germany is German. The employment legislation they are covered by is in German. Their employment contracts are in German.

I actually don’t think this a a problem for Ryanair and I would imagine they know and accept these talks will require to speak German.

billy few mates

Germany is an expensive place to live and work and many outside companies find it prohibitively expensive to do business there for this reason. Even large German companies have moved some parts of their business abroad because of this (Lufthansa Technic for example).
Just because the ultra low cost base business model works in other countries doesn’t mean they can shoehorn it in there. Maybe Ryanair will have to decide their business model doesn’t work in Germany and move and find another market to develop somewhere else, either that or submit to the demands of the union and mark it down as the cost of doing business in that country. The last thing anybody needs is another strike or the threat of industrial unrest.

rivegauche

Bob24 wrote: »

How is it relevant?

These pilots are employed in Germany. The language of Germany is German. The employment legislation they are covered by is in German. Their employment contracts are in German.

I actually don’t think this a a problem for Ryanair and I would imagine they know and accept these talks will require to speak German.

My employment contract is available in German and English.
A sizable proportion of the pilots would not be German.
The only people this suits are VC and once they wrest control of the pilots it will allow them to control the German labour market for Pilots; if that results in net Job destruction then so be it.
A supposedly unreasonable Ryanair was able to come to agreement with Irish and Italian pilots but not the German Union

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

My employment contract is available in German and English.

Are you employed in Germany? If yes which version will have legal value shall you have a conflict with your employer? If you are in Germany presumably the English one is just an non-binding translation of the real thing provided for the convenience of people who don’t speak the language but which holds no legal value.

Thinking this type of legal and formal things can be dealt with in English in a country like Germany is unreasonable (if you reverse the situation, even here where unions are not as strong as over there can you think of any Irish union which would accept to discuss terms of employement of Ireland based employees in German regardless of which industry they are in?). I worked for an American multinational company in France before and sure a lot of the staff there was not French and/or could speak English, company ressources were available in English, many business discussions and discussions with my management were in English, etc. But anything formal/legal was in French and unions were definitly discussion with the company in French.

Based on your posts it looks like you don’t like that union at all and that’s fair enough, but arguing that they would be unreasonable for refusing to negotiate in a different language than the one of the country where their members are employed and in which all the relevant legal documents are written doesn’t make a strong case for explaining why they are that bad in your mind.

And besides the language barrier, as the former head of the WRC Kieran Mulvey is obviously a recognised expert in Irish employment legislation and our culture of industrial relations which gave him strong legitimacy to lead talks in Ireland. But I am sure both himself and Ryanair are reasonable and fully conscient that he wouldn’t be the same great fit for German talks as a lot of his knowledge/experience/legitimacy is country specific and wouldn’t be as useful in a German context.

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rivegauche wrote:

A supposedly unreasonable Ryanair was able to come to agreement with Irish and Italian pilots but not the German Union

Remind me again how many Irish strikes it took before "reasonable" Ryanair came to the negotiating table??

rivegauche

The Works Council has been completely sidelined by Union actions in Ryanair's German activities. The Works Council is a fundamental element of the Industrial Relations Machinery in Germany which is funded and empowered to protect the interests of the employee.
It is very jarring to hear a trade-unionist by profession who doesn't work in a Firm subject to Industrial Action speaking for the staff of that Firm. A representative of the Council usually speaks, not Union heads.
The Union heads are usually only speaking on things related to Collective bargaining actions Industry wide e.g. cleaners or pre-school care or retirement home workers.

Following the dogma of the trade union movement will lead to job destruction for employees of Ryanair in Germany.

Verdi cabin crew will also strike on Wednesday;
http://www.airliners.de/deutsche-crews-mittwoch-ryanair/46737
you can try to translate that online but it won't translate well.
"Verdi-Kurs verwundert Beobachter" translates as Independent Observers are confused by Verdi's direction
They can't see the sense in the cabin crew strike on that day.

rivegauche

View Profile wrote: »

Remind me again how many Irish strikes it took before "reasonable" Ryanair came to the negotiating table??

I'd contend that Ryanair had moved considerably but that it is vital for the Union movement to characterize them as intransigent to convince the workers that the Unions won ALL the concessions that were made rather than the concessions being willingly made.

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https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-shareholders-urged-to-oust-o-leary-at-agm-1.3626023

Could we be seeing the end of O'Learys reign?!

billie1b

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https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-shareholders-urged-to-oust-o-leary-at-agm-1.3626023

Could we be seeing the end of O'Learys reign?!

Why do you think the media etc are banned?, he knows he’s going to get his arse handed to him, whether they oust him or not is another thing but he’s in for a major grilling!

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billie1b wrote: »

Why do you think the media etc are banned?, he knows he’s going to get his arse handed to him, whether they oust him or not is another thing but he’s in for a major grilling!

Some rumours say he'll step down as CEO but take up Bondermans position. Bonderman will get the boot and Bellew will take the CEO position.

Either way management needs a massive restructure as they've being making a balls of everything.

billie1b

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Some rumours say he'll step down as CEO but take up Bondermans position. Bonderman will get the boot and Bellew will take the CEO position.

Either way management needs a massive restructure as they've being making a balls of everything.

I’ve been hearing the same rumours to be honest

Bob24

View Profile wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-shareholders-urged-to-oust-o-leary-at-agm-1.3626023

Could we be seeing the end of O'Learys reign?!

Good question. I’d say at the very least he will lose quite a bit of they leeway and freedom he used to have to manage the business (he’s actually probably lost some of it already).

The next question i would ask if he goes: besides his very personal communication style as a CEO, would there be any major change in the way the company is run or would it mostly be seen by shareholders as addressing a problem with a specific individual rather that the company strategy?

billy few mates

I think the current management team have taken the company as far as they can and the time is right for them to ride off into the sunset with their richly deserved farewell bonuses.
They've done a fantastic job bringing Ryanair from a small upstart Irish company to a world leading airline but I personally don't think they have the skillset to lead the company in its current guise. The recent strikes were allowed to become far too personal and it times it seemed more about not wanting to lose face at the expense of losing customer confidence.
Those recent strikes could definitely have been avoided if they'd made the right decisions a lot sooner, instead they tried to battle their way out of it and found themselves totally out of their depth.
Thank them for their contributions to date, top up their pension pots and let them walk away. A total overhaul is what's required if they want to win back the loyalty of the customers, and more importantly the staff.

rivegauche

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ryanair-calls-for-change-to-irish-law-in-hope-of-app-451844/?utm_source=dlvr.it

Ryanair calls for change to Irish law in hope of appeasing unions