Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

billy few mates

I can assure you the letters warning of protective notice received by the pilots were given the due consideration they fully deserved and many of them were happy to report they found them to be tough, strong and thoroughly absorbent but no substitute for their usual brand...

Comhrá

billy few mates wrote: »

I can assure you the letters warning of protective notice received by the pilots were given the due consideration they fully deserved and many of them were happy to report they found them to be tough, strong and thoroughly absorbent but no substitute for their usual brand...

Tenger

rivegauche wrote: »

............
Your claimed "knowledge" of the industry doesn't trump protective notice. The pilots dodged a bullet here. It was a very clear statement of intent which made the other party to the negotiations more amenable to compromise.

No-one will deny that the company announced they were issuing “protective notice” to their pilots.
However the practicality of this is being disputed. Looking back over the last 4-5 years Ryanair pilots effectively get laid off or get reduced hours over the Winter most years. They reduce the schedule by 30-40% and thus there is a similar reduction is need for flight crew. So any schedule reduction would be line with this annual shift. If/when FR lift the protective notice it will be interesting to hear how many routes/jobs are saved in Ireland.

My understanding is that the company issued protective notice and later agreed to a 3rd party intervention which was what the pilots had asked for at the start of the strikes. Looks to me like FR issued a threat (a bullet as you say) but that they didn’t budge so FR had to agree to their request/demand.
The party who issued the threat (statement of intent) looks like they are the ones who became more amenable to negotiation.

rivegauche

http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-piloten-italien/46540

Deutsche Piloten wollen noch nicht mit Ryanair verhandeln
translates as: German Pilots don't want to negotiate with Ryanair yet.

They are playing a dangerous game there.

I don't see Ryanair basing more than a bare minimum of pilots in high cost of employment nations.
Health Insurance in Germany, State pension contributions, social insurance is not cheap in Germany.

If Ryanair has to now do everything according to what the Unions want to consider "by the book" and they have 6 staff to employ on each flight and a base to maintain then Ryanair are going to be flying in planes from Spain, Ireland, Poland, Baltics and they will be serving German routes.
The numbers of German pilots are somewhere between 300 and 400.
VC will find themselves celebrating a pyrrhic victory for the handful of German based pilots who remain.

German labour costs are very high and free trade in goods and services is a cornerstone of the E.U.
Add to that more curfews at the airports they want to fly from and they'll be flying in as the curfew is lifted and out of those airports before curfew falls so as to get a hour or two more use out of an expensive airframe.

Bob24

Still no news about the balloting of Irish pilots btw. Is it usual for it to take this long?

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-piloten-italien/46540

Deutsche Piloten wollen noch nicht mit Ryanair verhandeln
translates as: German Pilots don't want to negotiate with Ryanair yet.

They are playing a dangerous game there.

I don't see Ryanair basing more than a bare minimum of pilots in high cost of employment nations.
Health Insurance in Germany, State pension contributions, social insurance is not cheap in Germany.

If Ryanair has to now do everything according to what the Unions want to consider "by the book" and they have 6 staff to employ on each flight and a base to maintain then Ryanair are going to be flying in planes from Spain, Ireland, Poland, Baltics and they will be serving German routes.
The numbers of German pilots are somewhere between 300 and 400.
VC will find themselves celebrating a pyrrhic victory for the handful of German based pilots who remain.

German labour costs are very high and free trade in goods and services is a cornerstone of the E.U.
Add to that more curfews at the airports they want to fly from and they'll be flying in as the curfew is lifted and out of those airports before curfew falls so as to get a hour or two more use out of an expensive airframe.

You're still struggling with basics of the business I see, I'm not going to try where others have failed to explain it to you but if were that much more cost effective to do it that way then rest assured Ryanair would already be doing it. As you rightly point out Germany is an expensive place to do business because it's an expensive place to live and work. Ryanair might need to accept that fact and mark it down as 'the cost of doing business' in that particular market or move on and find some other market to develop, but I don't think too many of the pilots would be too worried one way or the other. There are plenty of opportunities out there for both parties, nobody's forcing Ryanair to stay in Germany except maybe the fact that it's one of their top three growth markets. Germans have money and don't mind spending it to travel, there are plenty of airlines. Lufthansa are expanding and looking to employ an additional 8000 staff.

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Germans have money and don't mind spending it to travel

You don't know Germans obviously. Frugality is a national pastime.

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Bob24 wrote:

Still no news about the balloting of Irish pilots btw. Is it usual for it to take this long?

Ballot due to conclude on September 6th I think.

billie1b

View Profile wrote: »

Ballot due to conclude on September 6th I think.

Also Italian pilots and cabin crew due to announce strike dates in the next few days for September

billie1b

On the ECA website today

“We regret to inform you that Ryanair pilot Olav Leeman has been dismissed by the airline as of 23 Aug 2018. Olav is the Secretary of the RTPG (Ryanair Transnational Pilot Group) Master Executive Committee (MEC), a big promoter and driving force of its core goals.

He is protected and supported by the Vereinigung Cockpit legal team, ECA and the whole pilot community (#PilotUnity). We cannot give any more details at this time.”

rivegauche

According to media reports Italian Pilots have reached agreement with Ryanair last week.
https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanairs-italian-pilots-vote-in-favour-of-collective-labour-agreement-cla-for-italy/

German labour negotiations are not going well or at all.
Ryanair has dismissed a VC spokesman member pilot there on 23rd. You can see that https://twitter.com/eu_cockpit
Last month Kenny Jacobs said in a news report that German pilots want 40% increases and that puts then at near enough Lufthansa wages.
He stressed that they are a low cost carrier, not Lufthansa and that those type of salary increases are unrealistic.
Whatever about the actual exact figure it appears that the gap between VC and the employer is wider than for all the other European Unions.

basill

Leopard and spots?

ElNino

I just got a breaking news alert from RTE that Irish Ryanair pilots have voted unanimously to accept the proposed collective bargaining agreement.

Good news all around for the pilots and the company.

Bob24

ElNino wrote: »

I just got a breaking news alert from RTE that Irish Ryanair pilots have voted unanimously to accept the proposed collective bargaining agreement.

Good news all around for the pilots and the company.

I can’t see it on the RTÉ website for now. Are there any details on the content of the agreement?

ElNino

IALPA have a press release up on twitter now

https://twitter.com/IALPA/status/1037307822466314240

LuckyLloyd

Congratulations to the pilots on a successful action.

billy few mates

Great news, all's well that ends well...

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billy few mates wrote:

Great news, all's well that ends well...

I'd imagine there are a few more issues that need to be resolved before Ryanairs workforce are completely satisfied.

This is a good start though.

billy few mates

Basically what it means is that all of the misery and disruption could have been avoided if the management had done this at the very beginning instead of trying to spin their way out of it on social media and adopting a hard line in their attempt to "take on the union"....
It

CoisFharraige

billy few mates wrote: »

Basically what it means is that all of the misery and disruption could have been avoided if the management had done this at the very beginning instead of trying to spin their way out of it on social media and adopting a hard line in their attempt to "take on the union"....
It

Completely agree. Just like a child throwing a tantrum and wrecking the place and then calming down later and apologising, except a child would be able to run their twitter account better.

basill

Will be interesting to see if the perceived corporate culture allows sleeping dogs to lie.

Brendan Bendar

billy few mates wrote: »

Basically what it means is that all of the misery and disruption could have been avoided if the management had done this at the very beginning instead of trying to spin their way out of it on social media and adopting a hard line in their attempt to "take on the union"....
It

Are you suggesting the management should just capitulate to any demands from a Union?

Surely not!

rivegauche

http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-deutschland-praesenz-winter/46669
No press releases are needed for Ryanair to make it clear to the German Unions that the number of planes based in German depend on successful labour negotiations.

Ryanair verringert Deutschland-Präsenz im Winter
Ryanair reduce German presence in Winter.

The sidebar also has a link to another story where Ryanair aren't increasing their offer to German Cabin Crew(Flugbegleiter).

Management strategy is to still fight their corner.

I think the only real change to strategy over the last year is that the most pugnacious member of Management has been told to stay away from open microphones for his own benefit.

Bob24

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Are you suggesting the management should just capitulate to any demands from a Union?

Surely not!

Clearly they shouldn’t, but on the other hand the management shouldn’t want a company culture wheby employees/unions think the only way to see any of their requests addressed is to strike (hence a culture whereby industrial discussions become pointless if there is no active strike threat). It means that they should indeed sometimes say yes to demands from the union before things escalate to industrial action.

Tenger

View Profile wrote: »

I'd imagine there are a few more issues that need to be resolved before Ryanairs workforce are completely satisfied.

This is a good start though.

I too believe this is a positive outcome that perhaps could have reached without the disruption to the public. I do think that a transparent seniority agreement will benefit all FR pilots across their network.
And as noted above this is only the resolution of the IALPA action, others FR pilot bodies in other nations have their own issues.

Brendan Bendar

Bob24 wrote: »

Clearly they shouldn’t, but on the other hand the management shouldn’t want a company culture wheby employees/unions think the only way to see any of their requests addressed is to strike (hence a culture whereby industrial discussions become pointless if there is no active strike threat). It means that they should indeed sometimes say yes to demands from the union before things escalate to industrial action.

Yes, indeed your point is good, however as the wise man said “It takes two to tango” and industrial discussions are indeed pointless if there is no movement from either side, and demands are totally unrealistic,as sometimes happens when some ‘war horses’ on both sides get traction, and moderate views are ignored.

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Brendan Bendar wrote:

...... and demands are totally unrealistic,as sometimes happens when some ‘war horses’ on both sides get traction, and moderate views are ignored.

The beauty of the pilots' campaign is, what they are looking for is completely reasonable and the norm with the likes of easyJet/Norwegian/etc.

It's just in Ryanair's warped world where it's acceptable for staff to work for free, pay for water on the job, and have their duties routinely changed last minute with no regard for their personal lives.

Brendan Bendar

View Profile wrote: »

The beauty of the pilots' campaign is, what they are looking for is completely reasonable and the norm with the likes of easyJet/Norwegian/etc.

It's just in Ryanair's warped world where it's acceptable for staff to work for free, pay for water on the job, and have their duties routinely changed last minute with no regard for their personal lives.

Yes you have made valid points and I am not defending FR, but.....but ... there are warped worlds on the ‘other side ‘too, one must realize.

I am on the go long enough to realize that, and what I conclude is that the moderates in these disputes are basically sidelined and those who have the bile to,instead of trying to further everyone’s cause,are bent on destroying the company,to satisfy their own view of society.

We have to realize that, otherwise any discussion is useless.

There are two sides to every story.

That said, a lot of bile has to be washed out of the FR system.

Will take a year at least to achieve equilibrium, at least a year.

This stuff has to wash through...

LuckyLloyd

The pilots were apparently extremely satisfied with the mediation outcome and felt it gave them pretty much everything they asked for. Given that's the case it might indicate that their position was "moderate" to begin with.

Brendan Bendar

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The pilots were apparently extremely satisfied with the mediation outcome and felt it gave them pretty much everything they asked for. Given that's the case it might indicate that their position was "moderate" to begin with.

Indeed...