Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

IngazZagni

rivegauche wrote: »

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ryanair-calls-for-change-to-irish-law-in-hope-of-app-451844/?utm_source=dlvr.it

I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. Ryanair can right now offer local contracts and satisfy union demands. Norwegian for example have Irish registered aircraft based in Spain and the crew have Spanish contracts. Most low cost airlines operate like this. The idea that because Ryanairs aircraft are Irish registered so therefore crew need to be on Irish contracts is bogus but something Ryanair is continuing to try and claim. It must be made very clear to the politicians what exactly Ryanair is trying to do.

Personally I think this could set a dangerous precedent. What's next? Irish contract with Romanian employment conditions? Lunacy.

It just shows that Ryanair are still not serious about changing the culture inside the company.

Edit: I just remembered something. In the UK the pilots pay income tax locally. Why is that? Oh that's right because they are on a local UK contract! Yet Ryanair said it's not possible. If only I had a cent for every lie..

View Profile

Hopefully the culture of bull**** and lies will cease with O'Learys departure.

rivegauche

"65
Ryanair crew with the exception of those based in the UK operate on Irish contracts of employment. That model has been challenged in the past by individuals and may continue to be challenged by trade unions who often favour local employment contracts. If local contracts were imposed it could impact on costs, productivity and complexity of the business. Any subsequent decision to switch capacity to lower cost locations could result in redundancies and a consequent deterioration in labour relations. Following the European Court of Justice (the “ECJ”) decision in the “Mons” case in September 2017, the case has been referred to the Belgian Labour Court in Mons, and with a hearing date set for November 2018 and a decision expected in early 2019. An unfavourable decision could mean the introduction of local Belgian contracts however, this decision may be appealed to the Supreme Court. Ryanair could face legal challenge from trade unions arising from unrealistic demands and expectations that do not align with the Company’s high productivity business model."

https://investor.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ryanair-FY-2018-Annual-Report.pdf

billy few mates

“Speaking at a media briefing in London today, Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary said that at present the budget carrier could only offer its employees Irish contracts because the aircraft they work on were registered in the country, and its management based there”

What piece of legislation or regulation was he referring to here...?

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

"65
Ryanair crew with the exception of those based in the UK operate on Irish contracts of employment. That model has been challenged in the past by individuals and may continue to be challenged by trade unions who often favour local employment contracts. If local contracts were imposed it could impact on costs, productivity and complexity of the business. Any subsequent decision to switch capacity to lower cost locations could result in redundancies and a consequent deterioration in labour relations. Following the European Court of Justice (the “ECJ”) decision in the “Mons” case in September 2017, the case has been referred to the Belgian Labour Court in Mons, and with a hearing date set for November 2018 and a decision expected in early 2019. An unfavourable decision could mean the introduction of local Belgian contracts however, this decision may be appealed to the Supreme Court. Ryanair could face legal challenge from trade unions arising from unrealistic demands and expectations that do not align with the Company’s high productivity business model."

https://investor.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ryanair-FY-2018-Annual-Report.pdf

Why are Ryanair supposedly calling for legislation to be changed to allow for local employment contracts while at the same time legally challenging any attempt to introduce them...?

It’s worth noting they see the introduction of local employment contracts as a risk to the business but so also is over capacity...

donkey balls

How FR have managed to get away with Irish issued contracts for employees working and living in other EU countries is beyond me, Does the likes of some of the pharma & tech companies that have operations here give employees US/Swiss contracts ?

Bob24

billy few mates wrote: »

“Speaking at a media briefing in London today, Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary said that at present the budget carrier could only offer its employees Irish contracts because the aircraft they work on were registered in the country, and its management based there”

What piece of legislation or regulation was he referring to here...?

Good question which Ryanair likely won’t answer. If they did it would likely transpire that no legislation is preventing them from offering local contracts to workers as such, but that the issue is more that some legislation is preventing them form doing it in the terms they would like (and I strongly suspect what’s involved is legislation related to tax evasion and/or minimum employment standards).

A bit like me publicly saying “the law must be changed because it is preventing me from using me car”. And what I really mean but I am not saying is that the only use I have for my car is to drunk drive home from the pub and the law won’t allow me to do that.

rivegauche

Of course the Unions are behaving honourably in their engagement with the Company.

28th August pilots vote in favour of collective labour agreement
https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanairs-italian-pilots-vote-in-favour-of-collective-labour-agreement-cla-for-italy/
2 weeks later pilots are striking.
https://kfgo.com/news/articles/2018/sep/13/pilots-in-italy-to-join-ryanair-cabin-crew-strike-unions/

That is nothing short of sh1theadery from a Union that is intent on ruining the travelling plans of thousands of members of the public. There is no way Ryanair could be blamed; the group nominated to collectively negotiate with Ryanair has decided after just two weeks to go on strike instead of sitting down to negotiate. Charming.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Of course the Unions are behaving honourably in their engagement with the Company.

28th August pilots vote in favour of collective labour agreement
https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanairs-italian-pilots-vote-in-favour-of-collective-labour-agreement-cla-for-italy/
2 weeks later pilots are striking.
https://kfgo.com/news/articles/2018/sep/13/pilots-in-italy-to-join-ryanair-cabin-crew-strike-unions/

That is nothing short of sh1theadery from a Union that is intent on ruining the travelling plans of thousands of members of the public. There is no way Ryanair could be blamed; the group nominated to collectively negotiate with Ryanair has decided after just two weeks to go on strike instead of sitting down to negotiate. Charming.

Sounds more like the action of a union that's trying to improve the working conditions of its' members to me...

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Sounds more like the action of a union that's trying to improve the working conditions of its' members to me...

Collateral damage means nothing to you then and you'll try to blame the company for the actions of the Employees.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Collateral damage means nothing to you then and you'll try to blame the company for the actions of the Employees.

You don't think the company can avoid this...?

rivegauche

Ultimatum issues today with one week deadline; No.
Any reasonable person can see this is unreasonable behaviour.

billie1b

rivegauche wrote: »

Collateral damage means nothing to you then and you'll try to blame the company for the actions of the Employees.

I mentioned at the start of the month that the Italian pilots and crew would be announcing strike action for this month but you shot me down saying that the pilots had made agreements, your problem there was that you are listening to Ryanair press releases that rarely have any truth to them, you need to be listening to people with insider knowledge or people in the business to know whats happening.

rivegauche

The decision to cancel flights and disappoint thousands of passengers is not made on the basis of rumours.
This is a premeditated act by the Union where they don't give the Customers or Airline adequate notice of their intention to strike.
A huge proportion of those flights would have been filled in the last few weeks between when the Pilots decided they'd strike and when they gave their Airline notice of their intention to strike.
Contemptible behaviour.

Your post here is 29th August. Today is 13th September.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107935976&postcount=913
you said "next few days"
They intentionally withheld notice to cause maximum hardship to members of the public.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

The decision to cancel flights and disappoint thousands of passengers is not made on the basis of rumours.
This is a premeditated act by the Union where they don't give the Customers or Airline adequate notice of their intention to strike.
A huge proportion of those flights would have been filled in the last few weeks between when the Pilots decided they'd strike and when they gave their Airline notice of their intention to strike.
Contemptible behaviour.

Your post here is 29th August. Today is 13th September.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107935976&postcount=913
you said "next few days"
They intentionally withheld notice to cause maximum hardship to members of the public.

I'm pretty sure the decision to cancel flights is made by the company not the union(s)....
As with the Dublin strikes, industrial action is completely avoidable...

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

The decision to cancel flights and disappoint thousands of passengers is not made on the basis of rumours.
This is a premeditated act by the Union where they don't give the Customers or Airline adequate notice of their intention to strike.
A huge proportion of those flights would have been filled in the last few weeks between when the Pilots decided they'd strike and when they gave their Airline notice of their intention to strike.
Contemptible behaviour.

Your post here is 29th August. Today is 13th September.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107935976&postcount=913
you said "next few days"
They intentionally withheld notice to cause maximum hardship to members of the public.

Did the unions give less notice than they're legally obliged to..?

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

As with the Dublin strikes, industrial action is completely avoidable...

by complete capitulation to an unreasonable opponent. No thanks.

rivegauche

billie1b wrote: »

I mentioned at the start of the month that the Italian pilots and crew would be announcing strike action for this month but you shot me down saying that the pilots had made agreements, your problem there was that you are listening to Ryanair press releases that rarely have any truth to them, you need to be listening to people with insider knowledge or people in the business to know whats happening.

If Ryanair acted upon rumours and cancelled the flight on 28th, re-imbursed all passengers then the Union would not call a strike on 28th and instead call a strike on 29th or 30th.
Or if there was a rumour that the pilots were going on a 5 day consecutive strike should the airline cancel flights on all 5 days on the basis of an unsubstantiated rumour.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

by complete capitulation to an unreasonable opponent. No thanks.

Fair enough, they obviously didn't learn the lessons from the Dublin dispute.
Let me know how it works out for them this time round...

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

by complete capitulation to an unreasonable opponent. No thanks.

Out of interest, what are the "unreasonable" demands the unions are making..?

rivegauche

The unreasonable demand is to insist upon a near immediate response relating to a major fundamental aspect of how they conduct their business. No Employer could comply. You know this damn well but you prefer to be obtuse.

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Fair enough, they obviously didn't learn the lessons from the Dublin dispute.
Let me know how it works out for them this time round...

Irish based pilots weren't looking for Irish contracts as they already had Irish contracts. What lesson was to be learned there? This is not ground that would have been covered during those negotiations.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

The unreasonable demand is to insist upon a near immediate response relating to a major fundamental aspect of how they conduct their business. No Employer could comply. You know this damn well but you prefer to be obtuse.

I’ve been saying that a few times already, but with their behaviour of the past couple of months Ryanair has entrenched in the mind of all its staff that the only way to change things is to strike and that discussions which are not happening under active strike threats will never lead to any change.

The action of the union is a consequence of that and Ryanair only have themselves to blame. Leaving unions aside this is a direct consequence of the way the company has been ignoring staff requests for years and decided to go for a confrontational approach as things stated to heat up in the past few months, before accepting a number of reasonable demands only after strikes happened and not before.

NH2013

rivegauche wrote: »

The unreasonable demand is to insist upon a near immediate response relating to a major fundamental aspect of how they conduct their business. No Employer could comply. You know this damn well but you prefer to be obtuse.

Exactly, it’s not as if Ryanair have know about these demands for the last 5+ years, or even the last 12 months, how could they possibly have come up with acceptable solutions in only 2 weeks? Oh, wait... :rolleyes:

rivegauche

Not engaging in negotiation by the employees will lead to change but it might not be change which is directed by them in a direction which has beneficial outcomes for them.
Anyhow, it is drawing to a close in coming two months. Management will be given approval or not for the strategy to pursue and one or two court cases will be decided.

incentsitive

I have heard of so many people who are out of pocket due to Ryanair this summer. Refusing to cover alternative flights, huge delays in compensation for hotels, etc.
They have lost a significant customer base after this summer I suspect, no matter how they try dress it up.
Thank god I didn't fly anywhere this summer.

rivegauche

NH2013 wrote: »

Exactly, it’s not as if Ryanair have know about these demands for the last 5+ years, or even the last 12 months, how could they possibly have come up with acceptable solutions in only 2 weeks? Oh, wait... :rolleyes:

Which demands made by which party. The negotiating party which is supposedly representative and speaks for the pilots was only appointed two weeks ago.
All the demands that were made before that were of questionable value as the people making those demands had no mandate. Remember that tax office crackdowns in recent years across Europe were made predominantly against employees, not employer. It suited employees very well in some cases not to be employed by Ryanair directly and that was the basis on which they offered the services to their employer. Imagine if Ryanair HR based on sniffing the mood decided to offer direct contracts; that would have angered a lot of those pilots who were providing services to Ryanair and they may have just withdrawn instead and indeed that might still happen for a proportion who might in future have direct contracts imposed upon them against their own will. They existed quite happily in a grey area of the employment market.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Not engaging in negotiation by the employees will lead to change but it might not be change which is directed by them in a direction which has beneficial outcomes for them.
Anyhow, it is drawing to a close in coming two months. Management will be given approval or not for the strategy to pursue and one or two court cases will be decided.

'The floggings will continue until morale improves'.
My understanding from what I've read is that these disputes have only come to a head because of the exasperation of the unions and their members at the lack of progress in the discussions and negotiations.
I could be wrong though.

Still waiting for you to tell me what their unreasonable demands are..?

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

Still waiting for you to tell me what their unreasonable demands are..?

You'll find that I did.

rivegauche

For a company that people here depict as being unwilling to engage ,Ryanair appear to be doing a hell of a lot of engagement.

http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-gewerkschaften/46798

More Unions recognised in Italy and contract agreements made.

Translation is along the lines of this:
Italian flight attendants form collective agreement. Content of the agreement whose duration last three years are unknown.
Another Union has called on flight attendants to strike.(???)