So who's going to see the Pope?

Taytoland

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

After watching Spotlight tonight you immediately recognise the similarities but you also sense that the American justice system dealt with the abuse and coverups quickly and thoroughly whereas we didn't and gave the church a handy deal and put it down to a few bad apples.

Because the Irish state was built upon the bedrock of Rome Rule.

Thomas_IV

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Well, that is what I meant, they commit crimes in the name of the ideology.

Apologies for being pedantic but I don't actually agree that the crimes they commit are always "in the name of ideology".  The RCC provided a safe environment for paedophiles to operate.  I don't think they did what they did to children "in the name of Christianity".  The same paedophile would be doing the same thing if he (mostly men) hadn't become a priest.  It's done for personal gratification/power etc.  

Some of the abuse, such as the Magdalene Laundries and Tuam babies etc do have a religious underpinning and thus can be labelled as having been done in the name of the ideology.  

Thomas_IV wrote: »

I never came across any site claiming that there exist 40k Christian Church organisations. This site must have added and put all in that even remotely have a Christian label.

We are used to the RCC and COI being the dominant christian denominations here but across the world, and certainly in the USA, there are literally thousands of independent christian denominations here a single minister tends to a local flock with his (or her) own slant on christianity.  Such denominations may have no more than 100 members but they are each an independent christian denomination.

Denomination - a recognised autonomous branch of the christian church.

Data on the number of denominations worldwide -
http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf

I have given you a thanks for the work you have done in writing your post. I wouldn't object the many passages in it, but as you have proved in your own post, one can turn a Religion onto an Ideology and this is what happened with Islam as well, cos Islamism is nothing else but turning a Religion into an Ideology. This should explain the meaning of my previous post regarding committing crimes in the name of an ideology further.

The Holocaust for example was committed on the Basis of a racistic ideology and that Basis included the for centuries ongoing anti-semitism provided and maintained by both Christian Churches. The Nazis used that for their own purpose and apart from some clerics who saved the lives of some Jews who could escape the Nazis, both Churches were rather seeking to come to arrangements with them and even the then Pope did not dare to speak out directly against the genocide which was already going on during WWII. Just a few brave Priests did publicly and either ended up themselves in concentration camps, where they have been murdered or somehow survived. That the RCC (the Vatican respectively) helped Nazi criminals to escape justice after WWII by providing them with new identities, passports and tickets for a ship to South America is another part of their work and involvement with those criminals. I bring up that example to show you that Religion and ideology are not always that apart from each one another as you like to assume. Not less clercs were themselves anti-semites, but a few were not anti-semites and the majority of them was following the directives given by the Vatican and their Bishops suit.

It is always stated and brought up that the core of Christianity is to help those in need, but how does that dogma justify the help for Nazi criminals to escape justice by the so called 'rat line' which the Vatican has helped to establish and to provide for them even at the time towards the end of WWII? I think that there are plenty of various aspects that come into that, but imo there is no way for justification of this complicity in helping Nazi criminals to escape their justice for what they have done. This is when Religion and ideology get mixed up together and create an save environment for people who didn't deserve mercy because they were murderers.

ELM327

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This post has been deleted.

You'd have to wonder about those who joined since the 90's as they were well aware of it by that point.

Thomas_IV

Taytoland wrote: »

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

After watching Spotlight tonight you immediately recognise the similarities but you also sense that the American justice system dealt with the abuse and coverups quickly and thoroughly whereas we didn't and gave the church a handy deal and put it down to a few bad apples.

Because the Irish state was built upon the bedrock of Rome Rule.

I was already thinking that I might detect some Unionist from Nordieland on this thread. Now with this line, you've certainly given me the proof for that.

P_1

Thomas_IV wrote: »

I was already thinking that I might detect some Unionist from Nordieland on this thread. Now with this line, you've certainly given me the proof for that.

To be fair we did essentially swap London rule for Rome rule. Well after the 1937 constitution was written we certainly did. No coincidence this happened the first time FF got into power

Thomas_IV

ELM327 wrote: »

Thomas_IV wrote: »

By no means does it outweigh the abuse committed by the church. What I am pointing to is that private charity organisations cannot work the same way on an equal scale like the church does or a social welfare state can. The latter is or would be to replace the charity work of the church and that is a political problem because others then social democratic of socialist minded parties, the ideas of how strong a social welfare state should be and how much it is to paid into that differ very much, more so in the eyes of the conservative parties to which I count FF and FG. The Shinners would make a difference by their own agenda, but in the end it would all have to be paid for by the tax payer.

FF are a leftist populist party.
This is not a politics thread.


To take your main point, it is ridiculous to have an organisation that tortured and raped our children, now in charge of schools and maternity hospitals.
Lets bin that, remove the tax free status and bill them for the compensation to rape victims.


Then - let them exist. They will die in a few years anyway.

Never had them down as such, but as you say, this is not a politics thread, so I try to keep on topic.

Interesting that you advocate for a somewhat or somehow dissolving of the RCC by natural cause but you don't seem to give a thought on what might replace the vacuum this might create. I wouldn't expect to have that in permanent vacancy.

ELM327

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Never had them down as such, but as you say, this is not a politics thread, so I try to keep on topic.

Interesting that you advocate for a somewhat or somehow dissolving of the RCC by natural cause but you don't seem to give a thought on what might replace the vacuum this might create. I wouldn't expect to have that in permanent vacancy.

We don't have to believe in magic. Didn't you see the wizard of oz? Substitute the pope for the wizard and there you go.


Society can exist (and will be a better society) when there's no one subjected to imaginary mind control.
One act of charity here and there doesn't outweigh the curse that the RCC and religion as a whole is on society.

ELM327

Thomas_IV wrote: »

I was already thinking that I might detect some Unionist from Nordieland on this thread. Now with this line, you've certainly given me the proof for that.

I'm a republican. Family shot at by the brits up north.
Don't use the chap's unionism as the reason just because he happens to be right !

P_1 wrote: »

To be fair we did essentially swap London rule for Rome rule. Well after the 1937 constitution was written we certainly did. No coincidence this happened the first time FF got into power

Yes indeed, dev's 37 constitution was much more religious than the one that preceded it from 1922.

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This post has been deleted.

Thomas_IV

ELM327 wrote: »

Thomas_IV wrote: »

I was already thinking that I might detect some Unionist from Nordieland on this thread. Now with this line, you've certainly given me the proof for that.

I'm a republican. Family shot at by the brits up north.
Don't use the chap's unionism as the reason just because he happens to be right !

P_1 wrote: »

To be fair we did essentially swap London rule for Rome rule. Well after the 1937 constitution was written we certainly did. No coincidence this happened the first time FF got into power

Yes indeed, dev's 37 constitution was much more religious than the one that preceded it from 1922.

First of all, I write how I see fit and what I see fit without asking you for any approval. I think that this should be a clear statement on my side in regards to you trying to comand me what I should write or use and what not. He used the phrasing which is common for Unionists and always have been. I am well aware of the strong influence Dev granted the RCC during his time as Taoiseach and later President of Ireland.

You appear to be a very fierce person and not that moderate as you try to come across, even a tad too radical for my taste and I won't ask you for what kind of a Republican you are as there are different sort of it, not just in Ireland.

ELM327

Thomas_IV wrote: »

First of all, I write how I see fit and what I see fit without asking you for any approval. I think that this should be a clear statement on my side in regards to you trying to comand me what I should write or use and what not. He used the phrasing which is common for Unionists and always have been. I am well aware of the strong influence Dev granted the RCC during his time as Taoiseach and later President of Ireland.

You appear to be a very fierce person and not that moderate as you try to come across, even a tad too radical for my taste and I won't ask you for what kind of a Republican you are as there are different sort of it, not just in Ireland.

What are you on about now.
Can you write a legible (non-bunkum) response which addresses any of the points made and I will happily discuss further. Otherwise please feel free to add me to your ignore list.


It was pretty clear from the post context what republican means. Antithesis of unionism, supporter of a united and free 32 county Ireland. We serve neither king nor kaiser but Ireland, et al.

Thomas_IV

ELM327 wrote: »

Thomas_IV wrote: »

First of all, I write how I see fit and what I see fit without asking you for any approval. I think that this should be a clear statement on my side in regards to you trying to comand me what I should write or use and what not. He used the phrasing which is common for Unionists and always have been. I am well aware of the strong influence Dev granted the RCC during his time as Taoiseach and later President of Ireland.

You appear to be a very fierce person and not that moderate as you try to come across, even a tad too radical for my taste and I won't ask you for what kind of a Republican you are as there are different sort of it, not just in Ireland.

What are you on about now.
Can you write a legible (non-bunkum) response which addresses any of the points made and I will happily discuss further. Otherwise please feel free to add me to your ignore list.


It was pretty clear from the post context what republican means. Antithesis of unionism, supporter of a united and free 32 county Ireland. We serve neither king nor kaiser but Ireland, et al.

I think that I pefer the ignore list. Thanks all the same.

Taytoland

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

After watching Spotlight tonight you immediately recognise the similarities but you also sense that the American justice system dealt with the abuse and coverups quickly and thoroughly whereas we didn't and gave the church a handy deal and put it down to a few bad apples.

Because the Irish state was built upon the bedrock of Rome Rule.

I was already thinking that I might detect some Unionist from Nordieland on this thread. Now with this line, you've certainly given me the proof for that.

So you are denying that Catholicism was built into the Irish state?

ELM327

Taytoland wrote: »

So you are denying that Catholicism was built into the Irish state?

Considering our constitution in the free state is still the same one written by Dev and the council of bishops, he would be a fool to argue otherwise.

Thankfully he's added me to his ignore list so I wont hear from him again

Sycamore Tree

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Interesting that you advocate for a somewhat or somehow dissolving of the RCC by natural cause but you don't seem to give a thought on what might replace the vacuum this might create. I wouldn't expect to have that in permanent vacancy.

Wow! :eek:

This tells me a lot about your beliefs.

Vacuum indeed

So many people must have these same beliefs i.e. we know it's all nonsense but it provides some level of social control so despite the evils, it's better the devil you know. Fascinating insight.

James Brown

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

She said ordinary catholics support the cover up and moving around of paedo priests by simply being members of the church.

Now if the 2 of you agree with this post then that's up to you but I don't know one catholic who supports paedos.

Everyone agrees what happened was wrong and has sympathy with the victims.

You sound like a Fianna Fail supporter. When does the time come to say, 'I/We deserve better' and cut ties with these institutions?
When the entire organisation from top to bottom covers up and/or enables activity that damages people, for their own benefit, not even the organisations ordinary members, when is enough enough?
You agree group X covered up wrong doing and enabled the criminality continue. But you stick with group X because you like what they pretend to be about?

James Brown

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Never had them down as such, but as you say, this is not a politics thread, so I try to keep on topic.

Interesting that you advocate for a somewhat or somehow dissolving of the RCC by natural cause but you don't seem to give a thought on what might replace the vacuum this might create. I wouldn't expect to have that in permanent vacancy.

Science, reality, thinking for yourself? Or is the belief religious people are idiots who'll fall into another cult?

James Brown

Taytoland wrote: »

Because the Irish state was built upon the bedrock of Rome Rule.

The dark suicide riddled, women locked up for being pregnant, selling babies Ireland we are trying to get over? MIGA? The church should give all it's holdings to the state. Apologise and get the f*** out. Anyone wanting to worship are free to do so, but should be put under a psychiatric watch. Religion is odd behaviour, however common.

Hotblack Desiato

Thomas_IV wrote: »

These are both very anti-church comments

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with being anti-church.

There are very many good reasons to be anti-church.

Being anti-church is not denying people's freedom of belief. But belief should not be put on a pedestal immune from critique either. The latter is what allowed the abuses to continue unchecked for so long.

So, this would apply for every Club, political Party, private organisation and NGOs.

If they systematically covered up and excused abuse and refused to reform (and still refuse to make financial recompense, despite having great riches) then yes, any decent person should have nothing to do with them.

54and56

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Everyone agrees what happened was wrong and has sympathy with the victims.

You have sympathy for something you can't do anything about e.g. the people caught up in the recent fires in Greece but when you are a member of the organisation which institutionally abused, continues to abuse and covers up same "sympathy" doesn't cut it. You need to take action to fundamentally change the organisations leadership and culture otherwise your continued membership overtly supports what is going on and you need to take personal responsibility for that.

Sympathy without action is nothing more than a meaningless platitude which adds to the suffering of the victims.

"Just because I was a card carrying member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party doesn't mean I am a Nazi responsible for what the leadership did."!!!

Sound familiar????

iguana

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Wow! :eek:

This tells me a lot about your beliefs.

Vacuum indeed

So many people must have these same beliefs i.e. we know it's all nonsense but it provides some level of social control so despite the evils, it's better the devil you know. Fascinating insight.

Perhaps he meant the growth of fundamentalist churches? In recent history, in western countries where the traditional church/churches have lost their power, there is often a rising of evangelical religious groups. Some people do desperately crave religious fellowship and there are organised religious groups on the sidelines waiting to use those people to swell their numbers. I live in Limerick where I know of 4-5 different evangelical christian churches that have set up in the last few years. They do free/cheap summer camps, lots of events for children, for some of which, the religious nature of the event is hidden and then the children are bribed with promises of X-boxes to stay for disturbing, violent shows. There is also a relatively new LDS temple in the suburbs. All this in a tiny city and funded by vast reserves of US dollars eager to gain followers as the RCC grip wanes. And that's nothing compared to the efforts of the Scientologists in Dublin.

I very much want to see separation of church and state, I want to see the RCC heavily penalised for the crimes they have committed here and I do believe anyone still supporting them is, to a degree, complicit in those crimes. But it's naive to think that the waning of the RCC doesn't leave a vacuum and that those waiting to fill that vacuum aren't currently better at exerting control over their flock and the political state of the countries they have footholds in.

54and56

iguana wrote: »

Perhaps he meant the growth of fundamentalist churches? In recent history, in western countries where the traditional church/churches have lost their power, there is often a rising of evangelical religious groups. Some people do desperately crave religious fellowship and there are organised religious groups on the sidelines waiting to use those people to swell their numbers. I live in Limerick where I know of 4-5 different evangelical christian churches that have set up in the last few years. They do free/cheap summer camps, lots of events for children, for some of which, the religious nature of the event is hidden and then the children are bribed with promises of X-boxes to stay for disturbing, violent shows. There is also a relatively new LDS temple in the suburbs. All this in a tiny city and funded by vast reserves of US dollars eager to gain followers as the RCC grip wanes. And that's nothing compared to the efforts of the Scientologists in Dublin.

I very much want to see separation of church and state, I want to see the RCC heavily penalised for the crimes they have committed here and I do believe anyone still supporting them is, to a degree, complicit in those crimes. But it's naive to think that the waning of the RCC doesn't leave a vacuum and that those waiting to fill that vacuum aren't currently better at exerting control over their flock and the political state of the countries they have footholds in.

The size of that vacuum is the inverse of how well we have educated our citizens to think critically and independently. Given the RCC (primarily) has had control of what is taught in schools for generations it's not surprising that a lot of people disillusioned with the RCC would seek comfort in another group promising the happy ever after etc.

The only mitigating factor in such a circumstance is that there will be a large number of fragmented churches/religions rather than one dominant one. That alone should ensure that no single church becomes dominant.

ELM327

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The dark suicide riddled, women locked up for being pregnant, selling babies Ireland we are trying to get over? MIGA? The church should give all it's holdings to the state. Apologise and get the f*** out. Anyone wanting to worship are free to do so, but should be put under a psychiatric watch. Religion is odd behaviour, however common.

I'm talking to my invisible friend = locked up in psych ward.

I'm talking to my invisible friend because of religion = allowed and encouraged by society
I'm talking to my invisible friend, but it's a new type of religion = questioned and derided.


Same scenario, three different outcomes.


Then there's the 4th. I'm bombing you because my invisible friend told you.

mach1982

Florence Harsh Iceberg wrote: »

LOL

(That means 'I don't give a sh*t for you or anyone's religious faith/s)

Typical attitude of today's society , no respect for anyone , but the minute some disrespect their morals values or what every they will be "offended" and everyone will bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Respect is earned not given

54and56

mach1982 wrote: »

Typical attitude of today's society , no respect for anyone , but the minute some disrespect their morals values or what every they will be "offended" and everyone will bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Respect is earned not given

Nice soliloquy.

I bet you don't even see the ironic double standard of your post do you?

You want a non religious (I'm guessing) poster to respect a church which hasn't earned his respect (quite the opposite in fact) yet you assert without any evidence whatsoever that the same poster requires everyone to respect his moral values or he will be offended and society will bend over backwards to "accommodate" him (whatever "accommodate" means in that context?) despite his not having earned such respect.

Did it cross your mind that religious organisations also have to earn respect and not be automatically entitled to it? It was such unquestioned deference over many generations which resulted in creating a safe environment where many of the abuses we now know about occurred.

vicwatson

Tickets delayed to the 10th as they have to sort out the traffic chaos it’s going to cause

ELM327

vicwatson wrote: »

Tickets delayed to the 10th as they have to sort out the traffic chaos it’s going to cause

It would be hilarious if they sort out a problem that doesnt exist.
We don't know how many tickets are "protest tickets".
Many people in the facebook protests block booked 3-5000 tickets. It's wholly possible that 50k or even 100k of the bookings are not actually going.

Hitman3000

Hope they don't forget to email my 50 tickets.

blacklilly

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You don't have to look too far. Family units are the biggest perpetrators of abuse both physically and sexually throughout the world

54and56

blacklilly wrote: »

You don't have to look too far. Family units are the biggest perpetrators of abuse both physically and sexually throughout the world

So in order to trump the RCC in the paedophilia and multiple abuse charts you'd have to group everyone on the planet (excluding orphans) into a single organisation.

Nice.