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So who's going to see the Pope?
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Well I'm sorry to hear that.
I think – with respect, that this is why you're able to talk like this. In reality – it's much more complex. I don't disagree with everything you say – just the way you're saying it.
My grandmother was a simple woman. She just wanted to get to "heaven" so she could "see" her dead parents and sadly – her dead infant children. That's why she was religious, that's why she "supported" the church. It's sad – but true. I think it's unfair to suggest that she – or anyone like her, is complicit in the abhorrent crimes of the priests/bishops/popes/other.0 -
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Ive no idea. One dead long before I was born and one dead shortly after I was born.
Dont remember being told either were religious. In fact, one definitely wasnt. In any case, the cover ups of the churches crimes in Ireland and abroad was not common knowledge then. So even if they had supported the church, they would have been ignorant of its crimes. Of course if they had supported it knowing what we know now - then yes, of course they would have supported the cover up of child abuse.
What is baffling is that today, in 2018, we KNOW about the crimes of the church, absolute solid evidence, and people still support them.[/quote]
These are both very anti-church comments and it appears to me that the aim would be - in some ways - to put more people off from the church because of their wrong doings in the past (as well as probably still in the present). If one would be consequent in holding up this angle, one would had to state that nobody should ever again support any organistation or insititution for their record of either committed crimes, abuse, corruption and the cover up of that and also denying it ever happened. So, this would apply for every Club, political Party, private organisation and NGOs. Following up that way, there would be left no institution or organisation worthy to support because when digging deep enough, one can find faults in any of them.
I am not defending the RCC, far from it, I just like to point out that there is a lack of differenciated view on the insitution and the people who still support it. Like the RCC, the other insititutions and organisations are made by humans, carried by humans and also related to the committed crimes and abuses done by humans.
There are still people out there who still vote for FF, the very party which got the most bashing on internet boards in Ireland than any other, just next to them are the SFers and the Unionists in NI.
There are still people in Ireland who support Communism without even acknowledging the crimes committed by that ideology, either ignoring these crimes or downplaying it, twisting the truth in a way to make it appear as if that has got nothing to do with the ideology itself. Then there are still people who fancy the Nazis and the Fascists with the same way of handling it like those who support Communism. They both apparently have learned nothing from history. On can continue with a list of all criminal and corrupt insitutions, organisations and parties. It all ends with them being built up and led by humans.
That means, in a general condemning of the whole institutions one condemns all the humans that are and have been part of it.0 -
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J. Smith wrote:My grandmother was a simple woman. She just wanted to get to "heaven" so she could "see" her dead parents and sadly – her dead infant children. That's why she was religious, that's why she "supported" the church. It's sad – but true. I think it's unfair to suggest that she – or anyone like her, is complicit in the abhorrent crimes of the priests/bishops/popes/other.
If she remained a church goer after the abuse public knowledge, it follows she supported the behaviour. Did she believe only Catholics could get into heaven?0 -
These are both very anti-church comments and it appears to me that the aim would be - in some ways - to put more people off from the church because of their wrong doings in the past (as well as probably still in the present). If one would be consequent in holding up this angle, one would had to state that nobody should ever again support any organistation or insititution for their record of either committed crimes, abuse, corruption and the cover up of that and also denying it ever happened. So, this would apply for every Club, political Party, private organisation and NGOs. Following up that way, there would be left no institution or organisation worthy to support because when digging deep enough, one can find faults in any of them.
I am not defending the RCC, far from it, I just like to point out that there is a lack of differenciated view on the insitution and the people who still support it. Like the RCC, the other insititutions and organisations are made by humans, carried by humans and also related to the committed crimes and abuses done by humans.
There are still people out there who still vote for FF, the very party which got the most bashing on internet boards in Ireland than any other, just next to them are the SFers and the Unionists in NI.
There are still people in Ireland who support Communism without even acknowledging the crimes committed by that ideology, either ignoring these crimes or downplaying it, twisting the truth in a way to make it appear as if that has got nothing to do with the ideology itself. Then there are still people who fancy the Nazis and the Fascists with the same way of handling it like those who support Communism. They both apparently have learned nothing from history. On can continue with a list of all criminal and corrupt insitutions, organisations and parties. It all ends with them being built up and led by humans.
That means, in a general condemning of the whole institutions one condemns all the humans that are and have been part of it.
Ideology's don't commit crimes. Groups of people who adopt an ideology commit crimes and if the membership of those groups don't quickly and decisively act to stop the commitment and/or cover-up of crimes those members who remain are complicit in same.
The RCC is guilty of paedophilia and other sexual and non sexual abuse on an industrial scale globally. It has been happening for decades and the membership has not succeeded in stopping it or preventing the continuous cover-up of these crimes as to do so would require a complete culling of the the organisations incumbent leadership and that hasn't happened.
Thus if having been aware of all of this you continue to support the organisation you are, by your actions (of making financial contributions and demonstrating your support of its leadership by attending the popes visit etc) and your in-action (not forcing total change of leadership) complicit in facilitating the continuity of it's abusive activity.0 -
Hitman3000 wrote: »If she remained a church goer after the abuse public knowledge, it follows she supported the behaviour. Did she believe only Catholics could get into heaven?
I've given you enough of my soul! – You're not having any more of it!!0 -
J. Smith wrote:I've given you enough of my soul! – You're not having any more of it!!
I prefer tangible stuff tbh.0 -
Je_suis_Jean wrote: »These are both very anti-church comments and it appears to me that the aim would be - in some ways - to put more people off from the church because of their wrong doings in the past (as well as probably still in the present). If one would be consequent in holding up this angle, one would had to state that nobody should ever again support any organistation or insititution for their record of either committed crimes, abuse, corruption and the cover up of that and also denying it ever happened. So, this would apply for every Club, political Party, private organisation and NGOs. Following up that way, there would be left no institution or organisation worthy to support because when digging deep enough, one can find faults in any of them.
I am not defending the RCC, far from it, I just like to point out that there is a lack of differenciated view on the insitution and the people who still support it. Like the RCC, the other insititutions and organisations are made by humans, carried by humans and also related to the committed crimes and abuses done by humans.
There are still people out there who still vote for FF, the very party which got the most bashing on internet boards in Ireland than any other, just next to them are the SFers and the Unionists in NI.
There are still people in Ireland who support Communism without even acknowledging the crimes committed by that ideology, either ignoring these crimes or downplaying it, twisting the truth in a way to make it appear as if that has got nothing to do with the ideology itself. Then there are still people who fancy the Nazis and the Fascists with the same way of handling it like those who support Communism. They both apparently have learned nothing from history. On can continue with a list of all criminal and corrupt insitutions, organisations and parties. It all ends with them being built up and led by humans.
That means, in a general condemning of the whole institutions one condemns all the humans that are and have been part of it.
Ideology's don't commit crimes. Groups of people who adopt an ideology commit crimes and if the membership of those groups don't quickly and decisively act to stop the commitment and/or cover-up of crimes those members who remain are complicit in same.
The RCC is guilty of paedophilia and other sexual and non sexual abuse on an industrial scale globally. It has been happening for decades and the membership has not succeeded in stopping it or preventing the continuous cover-up of these crimes as to do so would require a complete culling of the the organisations incumbent leadership and that hasn't happened.
Thus if having been aware of all of this you continue to support the organisation you are, by your actions (of making financial contributions and demonstrating your support of its leadership by attending the popes visit etc) and your in-action (not forcing total change of leadership) complicit in facilitating the continuity of it's abusive activity.
Replace 'ideology' with 'religion' and you have the same result. That is what I was pointing out by examples. Millions of people were killed in the name of ideologies and very few of the members of that ideology ever tried to change the leadership which was responsible for the crimes committed in its name. Same goes for the RCC, the Protestant Church, Islam and whatever else religion has blood on its hands by being abused by its leading people to justify the 'cause'.0 -
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I'm very anti church.These are both very anti-church comments and it appears to me that the aim would be - in some ways - to put more people off from the church because of their wrong doings in the past (as well as probably still in the present). If one would be consequent in holding up this angle, one would had to state that nobody should ever again support any organistation or insititution for their record of either committed crimes, abuse, corruption and the cover up of that and also denying it ever happened. So, this would apply for every Club, political Party, private organisation and NGOs. Following up that way, there would be left no institution or organisation worthy to support because when digging deep enough, one can find faults in any of them.
I am not defending the RCC, far from it, I just like to point out that there is a lack of differenciated view on the insitution and the people who still support it. Like the RCC, the other insititutions and organisations are made by humans, carried by humans and also related to the committed crimes and abuses done by humans.
There are still people out there who still vote for FF, the very party which got the most bashing on internet boards in Ireland than any other, just next to them are the SFers and the Unionists in NI.
There are still people in Ireland who support Communism without even acknowledging the crimes committed by that ideology, either ignoring these crimes or downplaying it, twisting the truth in a way to make it appear as if that has got nothing to do with the ideology itself. Then there are still people who fancy the Nazis and the Fascists with the same way of handling it like those who support Communism. They both apparently have learned nothing from history. On can continue with a list of all criminal and corrupt insitutions, organisations and parties. It all ends with them being built up and led by humans.
That means, in a general condemning of the whole institutions one condemns all the humans that are and have been part of it.
The "caring" organisation that raped our children, raped little girls then imprisoned them for getting pregnant, worked them like dogs for their own gain.
Then they cover up by moving paedophile priests around, giving them access to different children. Raping girls, raping and sodomising boys, controlling our society. The last laundry closed in 1996. And for laundry read slave laundry.
They are a very powerful organisation. Or , were, at one point.
Now thankfully people are getting more intelligent and don't fall for the cloak and dagger stuff. I firmly believe that in one (or at most 2) more generations the church will die off as will its congregation.
The church (organisation) derives its power from the church (congregation). It is intertwined in our lives because of the legacy of control. It runs schools. It runs hospitals. But this too will change. And I expect that in 15-30 years there will be no religious schools.
The church - the supposed caring organisation - was publicly against:
divorce
contraception
same sex marriage
abortion
female reproductive rights
womens rights
and more
They even made the st vincent de paul (a real charity and a real caring organisation) move a collection box from a church because they weren't vocal on the NO side in the recent referendum
The church is more out of touch now than ever.
No more shall altar boys dread the sunday with the priest, no more pregnant housekeepers, no more dead babies buried in sewers.
All of this perpetuated by the irish populace at large granting legitimacy in numbers and cash to the church.
If the sheep weren't continuing to be part of the flock (using the religious terminology) the shephard would no longer exert such dominance and control and abuse.0 -
Hitman3000 wrote: »I prefer tangible stuff tbh.
Everybody has a soul brah! – I'm not talking religious. You do too – it's the light behind your eyes, your personality – the things you find funny, the things you hold dear. It's YOUR smile, YOUR life – YOUR individuality. The fact that YOU are YOU – and there's no one else like you. It's YOUR DNA – YOUR thoughts, YOUR hopes and YOUR dreams...
Sure, it's not tangible! – But what of it?
The non-tangible stuff – is the BEST stuff.
LIFE is NOT tangible...0 -
J. Smith wrote:Everybody has a soul brah! – I'm not talking religious. You do too – it's the light behind your eyes, your personality – the things you find funny, the things you hold dear. It's YOUR smile, YOUR life – YOUR individuality. The fact that YOU are YOU – and there's no one else like you. It's YOUR DNA – YOUR thoughts, YOUR hopes and YOUR dreams...
But 'soul' is a religious concept.0 -
Replace 'ideology' with 'religion' and you have the same result. That is what I was pointing out by examples. Millions of people were killed in the name of ideologies and very few of the members of that ideology ever tried to change the leadership which was responsible for the crimes committed in its name. Same goes for the RCC, the Protestant Church, Islam and whatever else religion has blood on its hands by being abused by its leading people to justify the 'cause'.
I'm afraid you don't Thomas.
Christianity is a religion. Islam is a religion. Communism is a political ideology.
Groups of people with a common view or slant on these religions/ideology's are formed to progress their particular point of view and it is these man made organisations which in some cases commit crimes and it is the individual organisation, not the religion or ideology, which must be held to account for the crimes it facilitates.
You can't blame all christian churches for the crimes committed by the RCC!!
According to this site (which I cannot pretend to vouch for) there are "about 40,000 christian church organisations" worldwide ONE OF WHICH is the RCC.
Man made organisations commit crimes, not ideologies.0 -
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Hitman3000 wrote: »But 'soul' is a religious concept.
Not to me it's not.
To me – it's the culmination of billions of years of hardship and evolution.
We are here brah! – WE MADE IT!!!!!!!!!0 -
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Je_suis_Jean wrote: »Replace 'ideology' with 'religion' and you have the same result. That is what I was pointing out by examples. Millions of people were killed in the name of ideologies and very few of the members of that ideology ever tried to change the leadership which was responsible for the crimes committed in its name. Same goes for the RCC, the Protestant Church, Islam and whatever else religion has blood on its hands by being abused by its leading people to justify the 'cause'.
I'm afraid you don't Thomas.
Christianity is a religion. Islam is a religion. Communism is a political ideology.
Groups of people with a common view or slant on these religions/ideology's are formed to progress their particular point of view and it is these man made organisations which in some cases commit crimes and it is the individual organisation, not the religion or ideology, which must be held to account for the crimes it facilitates.
You can't blame all christian churches for the crimes committed by the RCC!!
According to this site (which I cannot pretend to vouch for) there are "about 40,000 christian church organisations" worldwide ONE OF WHICH is the RCC.
Man made organisations commit crimes, not ideologies.
Well, that is what I meant, they commit crimes in the name of the ideology. An ideology without man cannot exist. Same goes for religion.
I never came across any site claiming that there exist 40k Christian Church organisations. This site must have added and put all in that even remotely have a Christian label.0 -
Hitman3000 wrote: »That's nice, but it is still a religious concept.
I can see we are not going to agree. We have a difference in opinions. And that's ok.0 -
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Actually I have explicitly stated that if my granny didnt know about the abuses then she was not supporting child abuse. It is people who continue to support the church in light of what we now know that are complicit in supporting child abuse.
The church is continuing to cover abuse to this very day. Just last week another clergy member in south america had to step down because his abuses had been uncovered.
Every other organisation that has been caught out committing child abuse is just as bad.
I think you would find it difficult to find another organisation on the scale of the catholic church and the systemic abuses that were taking place with it.[/quote]
I have read your post and know what you're talking about. Apart from your Family connection, society in Ireland and elsewhere has changed in a way that to say nothing despite having the notion or even the knowledge about Church abuse is no longer tolerated. That wasn't so in the many decades of the 20th Century. Victims who were ashamed and didn't dare to speak about the abuse they suffered, are coming forward with their story after decades have passed. It takes much for such people to overcome the traumata on which they still suffer and go public as society has developed that far that their voices are heard and not suppressed like in the past. That means that it was a tabu then to speak of it and if one dared to do in spite of that society standing, the person had to face harsh consequences to what he or she already suffered back then. It is good that such things are no longer to be that easily hidden from the public and that victims speak up and that perpetrators are to be held to account and get punished for their deeds. That is justice, but justice has to be done by the state courts, not by the church ones, otherwise the perpetrator will maybe get away with it, if it all happened long ago.0 -
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I'm very anti church.These are both very anti-church comments and it appears to me that the aim would be - in some ways - to put more people off from the church because of their wrong doings in the past (as well as probably still in the present). If one would be consequent in holding up this angle, one would had to state that nobody should ever again support any organistation or insititution for their record of either committed crimes, abuse, corruption and the cover up of that and also denying it ever happened. So, this would apply for every Club, political Party, private organisation and NGOs. Following up that way, there would be left no institution or organisation worthy to support because when digging deep enough, one can find faults in any of them.
I am not defending the RCC, far from it, I just like to point out that there is a lack of differenciated view on the insitution and the people who still support it. Like the RCC, the other insititutions and organisations are made by humans, carried by humans and also related to the committed crimes and abuses done by humans.
There are still people out there who still vote for FF, the very party which got the most bashing on internet boards in Ireland than any other, just next to them are the SFers and the Unionists in NI.
There are still people in Ireland who support Communism without even acknowledging the crimes committed by that ideology, either ignoring these crimes or downplaying it, twisting the truth in a way to make it appear as if that has got nothing to do with the ideology itself. Then there are still people who fancy the Nazis and the Fascists with the same way of handling it like those who support Communism. They both apparently have learned nothing from history. On can continue with a list of all criminal and corrupt insitutions, organisations and parties. It all ends with them being built up and led by humans.
That means, in a general condemning of the whole institutions one condemns all the humans that are and have been part of it.
The "caring" organisation that raped our children, raped little girls then imprisoned them for getting pregnant, worked them like dogs for their own gain.
Then they cover up by moving paedophile priests around, giving them access to different children. Raping girls, raping and sodomising boys, controlling our society. The last laundry closed in 1996. And for laundry read slave laundry.
They are a very powerful organisation. Or , were, at one point.
Now thankfully people are getting more intelligent and don't fall for the cloak and dagger stuff. I firmly believe that in one (or at most 2) more generations the church will die off as will its congregation.
The church (organisation) derives its power from the church (congregation). It is intertwined in our lives because of the legacy of control. It runs schools. It runs hospitals. But this too will change. And I expect that in 15-30 years there will be no religious schools.
The church - the supposed caring organisation - was publicly against:
divorce
contraception
same sex marriage
abortion
female reproductive rights
womens rights
and more
They even made the st vincent de paul (a real charity and a real caring organisation) move a collection box from a church because they weren't vocal on the NO side in the recent referendum
The church is more out of touch now than ever.
No more shall altar boys dread the sunday with the priest, no more pregnant housekeepers, no more dead babies buried in sewers.
All of this perpetuated by the irish populace at large granting legitimacy in numbers and cash to the church.
If the sheep weren't continuing to be part of the flock (using the religious terminology) the shephard would no longer exert such dominance and control and abuse.
I am also anti-Church in the way that I don't want to have anything to do with them anymore. I still try to keep a differenciated view and accept that, even in this Institution which I despise because of my own experiences (they weren't that worse like what happened in Ireland but enough for me to quit Membership a short time after I reached the age for being able to declare my resignation from membership on my own decision), there are still individuals working there for serving the less fortunate and keep that going following their social angle.
You know yourself well enough that when the Church doesn't continues with the charity work they perform, either the state has to take over or there is no such organised charity on a likewise scale like that of the church. Private charity organisation have to struggle for donations from the public themselves and I doubt that they get rich by it, given that there is no corruption at work within the organisation itself.0 -
So does some charity outweigh all the rape of children and abuse of women?I am also anti-Church in the way that I don't want to have anything to do with them anymore. I still try to keep a differenciated view and accept that, even in this Institution which I despise because of my own experiences (they weren't that worse like what happened in Ireland but enough for me to quit Membership a short time after I reached the age for being able to declare my resignation from membership on my own decision), there are still individuals working there for serving the less fortunate and keep that going following their social angle.
You know yourself well enough that when the Church doesn't continues with the charity work they perform, either the state has to take over or there is no such organised charity on a likewise scale like that of the church. Private charity organisation have to struggle for donations from the public themselves and I doubt that they get rich by it, given that there is no corruption at work within the organisation itself.
Good people will always find a way to be good.
They dont need a church to do so.0 -
So does some charity outweigh all the rape of children and abuse of women?I am also anti-Church in the way that I don't want to have anything to do with them anymore. I still try to keep a differenciated view and accept that, even in this Institution which I despise because of my own experiences (they weren't that worse like what happened in Ireland but enough for me to quit Membership a short time after I reached the age for being able to declare my resignation from membership on my own decision), there are still individuals working there for serving the less fortunate and keep that going following their social angle.
You know yourself well enough that when the Church doesn't continues with the charity work they perform, either the state has to take over or there is no such organised charity on a likewise scale like that of the church. Private charity organisation have to struggle for donations from the public themselves and I doubt that they get rich by it, given that there is no corruption at work within the organisation itself.
Good people will always find a way to be good.
They dont need a church to do so.
By no means does it outweigh the abuse committed by the church. What I am pointing to is that private charity organisations cannot work the same way on an equal scale like the church does or a social welfare state can. The latter is or would be to replace the charity work of the church and that is a political problem because others then social democratic of socialist minded parties, the ideas of how strong a social welfare state should be and how much it is to paid into that differ very much, more so in the eyes of the conservative parties to which I count FF and FG. The Shinners would make a difference by their own agenda, but in the end it would all have to be paid for by the tax payer.0 -
The charity work done under the banner of the church is done voluntarily by individuals associated with the church. It's not work the church has decided to do and then assigned people to the task.
There is no reason to believe that these same people wouldn't be as charitable without a figurehead church behind them.
Church-based charities are almost exclusively private/independent organisations anyway which receive no support or funding from the Roman Catholic Church.
To replicate the position of the church in regards charity, charities would simply all need to join an association of charities.0 -
Well, that is what I meant, they commit crimes in the name of the ideology.
Apologies for being pedantic but I don't actually agree that the crimes they commit are always "in the name of ideology". The RCC provided a safe environment for paedophiles to operate. I don't think they did what they did to children "in the name of Christianity". The same paedophile would be doing the same thing if he (mostly men) hadn't become a priest. It's done for personal gratification/power etc.
Some of the abuse, such as the Magdalene Laundries and Tuam babies etc do have a religious underpinning and thus can be labelled as having been done in the name of the ideology.I never came across any site claiming that there exist 40k Christian Church organisations. This site must have added and put all in that even remotely have a Christian label.
We are used to the RCC and COI being the dominant christian denominations here but across the world, and certainly in the USA, there are literally thousands of independent christian denominations here a single minister tends to a local flock with his (or her) own slant on christianity. Such denominations may have no more than 100 members but they are each an independent christian denomination.
Denomination - a recognised autonomous branch of the christian church.
Data on the number of denominations worldwide -
http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf0 -
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FF are a leftist populist party.By no means does it outweigh the abuse committed by the church. What I am pointing to is that private charity organisations cannot work the same way on an equal scale like the church does or a social welfare state can. The latter is or would be to replace the charity work of the church and that is a political problem because others then social democratic of socialist minded parties, the ideas of how strong a social welfare state should be and how much it is to paid into that differ very much, more so in the eyes of the conservative parties to which I count FF and FG. The Shinners would make a difference by their own agenda, but in the end it would all have to be paid for by the tax payer.
This is not a politics thread.
To take your main point, it is ridiculous to have an organisation that tortured and raped our children, now in charge of schools and maternity hospitals.
Lets bin that, remove the tax free status and bill them for the compensation to rape victims.
Then - let them exist. They will die in a few years anyway.0 -
The charity work done under the banner of the church is done voluntarily by individuals associated with the church. It's not work the church has decided to do and then assigned people to the task.
There is no reason to believe that these same people wouldn't be as charitable without a figurehead church behind them.
Church-based charities are almost exclusively private/independent organisations anyway which receive no support or funding from the Roman Catholic Church.
To replicate the position of the church in regards charity, charities would simply all need to join an association of charities.
That is a bit different in other countries regarding the financial support, but mainly you're certainly right. Your last line appears to be the way forward for them in the future.0 -
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Loads of corruption within charitable organisations. Didnt we have a series of scandals regarding the salaries of the top brass in numerous charities a few years ago?
Also what seems to be coming clear recently is the endemic abuse within NGOs working in third world countries.
One of the problems with the church (and non church charities) is that the very nature of "doing good" means exposure to vulnerable people. So nefarious individuals will join in an attempt to get at such people, whether they be vulnerable by dint of poverty, age, physical or mental capacity.
Where the church excels and stands out, is not only being the single largest organisation to preside over various abuses to date, but the extensive cover ups that it has participated in (that have also been exposed). Cover ups that have gone on over decades.[/quote]
I don't trust or even support the NGOs, in fact I neither support any organisation because in my view, sooner or later it turns out that they all have some crooks within their ranks. So, the abuse discovered among the NGOs working in the third world didn't came as a shock or surprise to me, just as another despicable reality report about the do-gooders and their two faces. As often is the case and this is why I don't support but despise them.0
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