Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

hurler on de ditch

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Motivator wrote: »

Nonoperational wrote: »

Cork have scored 4 points more in 2 games than Waterford have in 3. The lack of forwards is absolutely killing ye. Has for many years.

7 players have started in the full forward line in our three games. Their return? 0-5 from play. We’ve also had only one shot in three games, no opposition goalkeeper has had to make a save.

Starting in the full forward line but playing as extra midfielders.
Having said that we have had chances. Stephen Bennett should have had goals against both Clare and Limerick and Patrick Curran against tipp. Tactics are a big part of what's making our forwards look so poor.

Stopitwillya

Ian OB

I suppose the team will be announced tomorrow evening so

Spatters

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Starting in the full forward line but playing as extra midfielders.
Having said that we have had chances. Stephen Bennett should have had goals against both Clare and Limerick and Patrick Curran against tipp. Tactics are a big part of what's making our forwards look so poor.

Lack of workrate is what is making our forwards so poor.
Lack of intensity and pride in the jersey.
I agree with you about the goals, Bennett’s ‘not doing the basics right’ i.e. catch the ball & put the ball in the net has nothing to do tactics or mgmt. players responsibility is key here.
I’ve never seen it as bad and if the players think they’re showing up the mgmt , they are sadly mistaken they are putting themselves under pressure, dishonoring the jersey and shortening their own careers.
Apologies for the rant but I can’t believe its come to this. Hopefully we’ll put in a performance on Sat worthy of that jersey.
#don’tstopbelieving

Giveitfong

The result of last Sunday’s game against Limerick, and the manner of it, has generated an unprecedented response on this thread, made up mainly of a combination of consternation, anger, condemnation (of players, manager and the county board) and fatalism. There was nothing like the same response to the corresponding game last year which was very similar in terms of both performance and result. Waterford eventually lost by 13 points (2-26 to 1-16), but it could well have been as big as last Sunday’s 20 point margin. Limerick had the same 13-point lead at half-time (2-14 to 0-7), but eased off in the second half, giving five substitutes a run, with the game in the bag, from the 50th minute on.

My analysis of that game, posted here, could be reproduced, in large measure, as an analysis of last Sunday’s debacle. Last year I began by suggesting that Waterford had been able to achieve a good level of success, despite Derek McGrath’s tactical ineptitude, due to the team’s high level of skill and commitment. However, on those occasions where the required level of player commitment had not been forthcoming, Waterford had been whipped by teams which combine application with good skills and game plans. This is what happened against Limerick last year and last Sunday.

Regarding last year’s game I wrote that there was no evidence of any preparation on Waterford’s part for the kind of game Limerick play. Limerick were “much better organised and coached. Add in their much higher level of alertness and work rate and Waterford never had a chance. At times it looked as though Limerick had 18 players on the pitch. Every time a Waterford player got the ball he was immediately surrounded by three Limerick players. By contrast, every time a Limerick player got the ball he always had at least two loose players available to take a pass.”

We saw a carbon copy of this last Sunday. And, like last year, Waterford’s only tactic was to rain long balls down on the Limerick defence where they were normally returned with interest. Of 17 first half puckouts last Sunday, 12 were hit long and Waterford won just three of these. In the 20th and 26th minutes Stephen O’Keeffe sent long balls into the Limerick goal area. On both occasions Maurice Shanahan and Tommy Ryan were the only Waterford players in the dropping zone. Also on both occasions no less than five Limerick players converged on the dropping zone. Not surprisingly, Limerick gained possession and immediately started the passing movements which ripped Waterford to shreds, just the same as happened last year.

As was the case last Sunday, Waterford went into last year’s game needing a result to stay in the competition. And like last Sunday, last year the Waterford team was flat while Limerick were highly motivated, worked like demons, gang tackled Waterford players in possession and turned over possession repeatedly. Their highly structured passing movements then put them into position to send quality ball into the full forwards.

There was no outrage last year at what was a similar display with a similar result. There may have been some sympathy with Waterford then because of the injuries that had blitzed them in the Clare game and the umpiring error which had denied them a win following a good display against Tipperary the previous week. Yet the fact is that Waterford failed to raise a gallop in what was their most important game of the year, just as was the case last Sunday.

I was fearful before the game that Waterford might be in for a hammering. This has been threatening for some time, as Waterford have struggled against teams of good skill, commitment and organisation. Dublin played them off the pitch in the first half and would have been out of sight by half time were it not for the fact that Waterford managed three goals, one a gift from Dublin. Dublin continued to dominate, despite playing against the wind, in the third quarter but, to their credit, Waterford lifted their game and could have stolen a win were it not for Stephen Bennett’s missed last-minute penalty.

In the following game against Galway in Walsh Park, Waterford played their best hurling of the year. My report on that game oozed with enthusiasm, based on the highly constructive game Waterford played, using stick passes to move the ball through the lines and then send good ball into the inside line. Unfortunately it proved to be a false dawn, as for some reason we never saw this approach subsequently. Incidentally, for those who have been rushing to write Kevin Moran off, he was outstanding in this game.

The game against Clare doesn’t count as Clare, knowing they would be returning to Walsh Park for the championship, made no real effort and Waterford won as they pleased. The first real signs of malaise came in the league semi-final, when Galway’s hard running and combined play constantly put the Waterford defence under severe pressure, whereas Waterford were playing very poorly. Then Galway imploded (as they did against Wexford more recently), hitting a series of terrible wides while Waterford, upping their game, snatched a very unlikely victory.

In the league final Waterford came up against opposition brimming with confidence and playing a brand of hurling of a different plane from Waterford’s. Again, against Clare, Waterford struggled against a better-organised team but still showed great fighting spirit to almost snatch a win at the end. In this game, and the games against Galway, Waterford did display a willingness to fight to the end, while their strong finishes in these three games tends to contradict those who are now saying that the team lacks fitness.

In the Tipperary game, Waterford again showed great fighting spirit in attempting to salvage the game, against the odds, in the third quarter but the goal which put a stop to their fightback seemed to knock the stuffing out of them. It seemed to dawn on them that, no matter what they did, given their own stone-age game plan, they hadn’t a hope against a team playing with great confidence and a far superior game plan. It seems to me that, given their previous two experiences against Limerick, they knew they were in for a hiding going into last Sunday’s game. You could see their lack of self-belief in their poor touch and sluggishness while Limerick, apart from their highly-effective style of play, were all fired up after their poor showing against Cork.

Writing on Thursday in the Irish Examiner, Ed Coughlan focused on the need for teams at this level to have at least a Plan B if their initial game plan is not working. You could hardly even call Waterford’s bombing of pointless ball down on the two-man full forward line a plan, but once it became apparent that it wasn’t working, they clearly had no fallback option. To quote from Coughlan’s article:

“No team can be naive enough to go into any game, even as hot favourites, without having a series of plays to go to in the event that things don’t go their way. The if/then-coaching conundrum is an often-ignored tool in a coach’s arsenal. The players will gain security and peace of mind going into a game if they feel they have many options to go to and many gears to go through. The opposite is a far more painful reality, when a player feels they have no answer to the problem the opposition have put in front of them, and worse still, no play to go to buy them some time to figure things out.”

It is easy to be critical of the Waterford players’ apparent lack of effort last Sunday, but I have sympathy for a set of players of high inherent quality who realise that, no matter how hard they try, they are going to be in trouble against highly-committed opposition composed of high-quality players who are way ahead in terms of structure and organisation.

Road-Hog

Excellent post above as usual....one question I would have though is between 2015 and 2018 what fundamentally changed with limerick. Prior to last year and this year we had never received such a hammering from them in my memory in any case. 2007 was a horrible experience in the semi but nothing like the beatings in the last two seasons. Is it purely down to commitment and organization which we have totally lost or did we in fact ever have it.

KevIRL

The Examiner reporting this morning that the CB are pressing ahead with Walsh Park redevelopment plans. A clear the air session was held at Fanning's request on Tuesday with the squad. Fanning is expected to stay on for the 2020 season

Fred C Dobbs

Giveitfong wrote: »

The result of last Sunday’s game against Limerick, and the manner of it, has generated an unprecedented response on this thread, made up mainly of a combination of consternation, anger, condemnation (of players, manager and the county board) and fatalism. There was nothing like the same response to the corresponding game last year which was very similar in terms of both performance and result. Waterford eventually lost by 13 points (2-26 to 1-16), but it could well have been as big as last Sunday’s 20 point margin. Limerick had the same 13-point lead at half-time (2-14 to 0-7), but eased off in the second half, giving five substitutes a run, with the game in the bag, from the 50th minute on.

As you said, Waterford had a spate of injuries last year in the corresponding fixture. But last year came on the back of a fighting performance the previous week (when robbed by that umpire). This time around, there were no injury concerns but the preceding performance against Tipp was woeful, even allowing for the sending off. Fair enough, management might be clueless but there was no excuse for the players downing tools after 15 minutes and not executing the basics of hurling (and for the indiscipline).

Fred C Dobbs

KevIRL wrote: »

The Examiner reporting this morning that the CB are pressing ahead with Walsh Park redevelopment plans. A clear the air session was held at Fanning's request on Tuesday with the squad. Fanning is expected to stay on for the 2020 season

How many 'clear the air sessions' are needed ....

KevIRL

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

How many 'clear the air sessions' are needed ....

By all accounts a 'clear the head' session was probably needed on Tuesday.

bruschi

Looking in from the outside, I dont understand the longing for McGrath to come back in as has often been rumoured and he isnt exactly shying away from it himself. Fanning took over a team who were deeply ingrained in McGraths philosophy and it was always going to take time to train to a new plan. But more importantly, how did Waterford fare last year? 4 championship losses and relegated from the Div 1 league. And this was in his 5th year in charge. Thats a horrendous return. Statistically, it is worse than this year, yet people are calling for Fanning to go and would welcome McGrath back? In your 5th year in charge, after making an AI final, you really should be pushing on to be right back up there, not hitting rock bottom and being one of the worst ranked teams in the competitions.

Again, from the outside, this makes zero sense to me. And this years fortunes say an awful lot more about the players than the management. It was a no win situation for Fanning, taking over players who longed for their previous mentor is always a hard one for managers, but the players have done nothing to help their cause. At least if they put in the effort and commitment, they could point to the poor management or coaching or whatever. But now, with their utter abject showings, they have no one to blame other than themselves.

And to be honest, this all started with the initial farcical set up of appointing the manager after McGrath left. I'm sure many predicted this sort of outcome after that.

blueflame

Have to agree on tactics and game plan - every time a pass was played into the middle of the field Limerick had guys bursting a gut to break out past the receiver looking to take an off load and moving forward like a wave. We on the other hand in that position were constantly isolated and had to turn ball in hand, most of the time into hard hitting traffic, and getting hammered constantly loosing the ball in dangerous positions.

To be honest this is not a very complicated game plan, it is based on the simple philosophy of pass and move, not giving opposition time to make contact, and is very hard to counteract. While it is a game plan based on relative simplicity, it involves extreme amounts of hard work, combined with totally commitment to unselfish running and unselfish passing. It does carry its own level of risk in that if the guy in receipt of the ball initially, does not release it to the runners or makes a mess of the off load, lads are out of position and can be opened up, (bit like an intercept in rugby) It is based on endeavour, trust and execution.

Now the questions arise:

- what kind of a game plan have we being working on in our training camps?
- are our players willing to be so unselfish in their work rate and running?
- Are they unselfish enough to repeatedly off-load or pass the ball to the guy in the better position?
- Are they willing to sacrifice personal glory for the benefit of the team?
- Are our management strong and brave enough to implement this type tactic.

In fairness to McGrath when he first introduced his game plan we did something similar, breaking out at pace with quick passing and getting receivers into position. Unfortunately we were never brave enough to implement it any where near to the level of Limerick. When the opposition sussed our game plan they pushed up on us and forced us to play quicker ball and work harder. Instead of increasing our work rate and moving the ball faster, our answer was to bring back more and more numbers, and all this achieved was to bring the game totally into our half of the field with no outlet or threat to the opposition defence. If you watch Limerick they invariably kept a constant threat inside with forwards always moving into space looking for the ball, pegging our defender back and creating space in front of our full back line allowing them to go long when it suited. For me McGrath was never positive or brave enough to take his game plan to the next level and this was his biggest failing.

Once final point and it relates to the drama on WLR this morning that we are going to push ahead with redeveloping Walsh Park - talk about sensationalism!!! If we as a county are even contemplating for one second not redeveloping Walsh Park because of these results and performances we should disband the County Board now. Walsh Park is a shining example of what needs to be done, we need to get our heads out of our A..ses and move forward, think bigger and work harder -

TCM

Manager for the high jump after next sunday

TheScoringGoal

For me the interesting line is that they will go ahead with the development if the funding that was promised comes through. What I had heard last weekend is that some of that funding was now in doubt.

liogairmhordain

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

Giveitfong wrote: »

The result of last Sunday’s game against Limerick, and the manner of it, has generated an unprecedented response on this thread, made up mainly of a combination of consternation, anger, condemnation (of players, manager and the county board) and fatalism. There was nothing like the same response to the corresponding game last year which was very similar in terms of both performance and result. Waterford eventually lost by 13 points (2-26 to 1-16), but it could well have been as big as last Sunday’s 20 point margin. Limerick had the same 13-point lead at half-time (2-14 to 0-7), but eased off in the second half, giving five substitutes a run, with the game in the bag, from the 50th minute on.

As you said, Waterford had a spate of injuries last year in the corresponding fixture. But last year came on the back of a fighting performance the previous week (when robbed by that umpire). This time around, there were no injury concerns but the preceding performance against Tipp was woeful, even allowing for the sending off. Fair enough, management might be clueless but there was no excuse for the players downing tools after 15 minutes and not executing the basics of hurling (and for the indiscipline).

I'd noticed the lack of emphasis on last year's game as well. Even when people have been listing off the hammerings we've taken in recent years, that game has hardly been mentioned. My theory is that it hasn't lingered in people's minds to the same extent because it wasn't live on telly and there were very very few waterford people at it. Last Sunday's game was in our own backyard and live on telly.

liogairmhordain

Giveitfong wrote: »

Again, against Clare, Waterford struggled against a better-organised team but still showed great fighting spirit to almost snatch a win at the end. In this game, and the games against Galway, Waterford did display a willingness to fight to the end, while their strong finishes in these three games tends to contradict those who are now saying that the team lacks fitness.

In the last 20 minutes of the Tipp game we were outscored 2-10 to 0-1.
In the last 20 minutes of the Limerick game we were outscored 0-10 to 0-0 and didn't even have a shot at the posts after the 52nd minute.
There was no willingness to fight to the end in these matches.

liogairmhordain

blueflame wrote: »

Stephen Bennett and Tommy Ryan looked dangerous when they received decent ball, but this was a major problem.

I don't think Bennett got the ball into his hand between the 1st minute and the 66th or 67th minute.

friendlyfun

Brace myself for tomorrow. Would be incredible if they beat Cork after three consecutive losses.

Padre Pio do your thing.

liogairmhordain

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

Giveitfong wrote: »

This time around, there were no injury concerns

Philip Mahony broke his leg against Tipperary

liogairmhordain

bruschi wrote: »

But more importantly, how did Waterford fare last year? 4 championship losses and relegated from the Div 1 league.

3 championship losses and one draw.
I don't know how many times I've heard this week that Waterford have lost every match since the new structure came in.

bruschi

liogairmhordain wrote: »

3 championship losses and one draw.
I don't know how many times I've heard this week that Waterford have lost every match since the new structure came in.

spot on, forget that myself. Everyone saying how they havent won since the AI semi final in 17, forgot that draw last year. Either way, overall point is the same.

hardybuck

liogairmhordain wrote: »

3 championship losses and one draw.
I don't know how many times I've heard this week that Waterford have lost every match since the new structure came in.

I think the point has been driven home pretty well that we haven't won a championship game since August 2017, and our Munster record during McGrath's era was also extremely poor.

mountgomery burns

hardybuck wrote: »

I think the point has been driven home pretty well that we haven't won a championship game since August 2017, and our Munster record during McGrath's era was also extremely poor.

Statistics without context though should never be used as a measure to gauge anything.

In McGraths First 4 years in charge, the record for Munster teams was:

Tipperary: 5W 0D 2L
Waterford: 2W 1D 4L
Limerick: 2W 0D 4L
Clare: 1W 0D 4L
Cork: 6W 1D 2L

So their record was only worse than Tipps and Corks. They were beaten by the eventual winners each year, twice in Munster finals. They were never drawn in a quarter final, if they say had drawn Clare and Limerick along with Cork and 2015 or Cork and Limerick along with Clare in 2016 when they were strong they'd likely have another couple of wins.

The format change skews everything, they'll have more games in Munster this year and last than they had in the previous 4 years and they are struggling. And last year there were plenty of mitigating circumstances last year, you'd wonder could they potentially have beaten Cork if they knew going into it that they still could qualify.

I'm not saying bringing McGrath back is the answer but there's a misleading picture being presented I think to defend Fanning really it seems. The reality is the hurling league and championship are now completely different competitions to what they were two years and drawing a comparison across the range of both is a bit ridiculous.

We were within a puck of a ball of winning an all Ireland under McGrath, and while obviously that doesn't entitle him to the keys of the city and to manage Waterford whenever he feels like it...it should not be forgotten lightly, being that it was only the 4th occasion in a 135* year history that we could say the same.

Jjjjjjjjbarry

Does anyone have stats on scoring in recent years? Eg. Mullane used to score about 3.5 points per game or something like that over his career. (guessing what his average was as I can't remember)

Mastermcgrath

bruschi wrote: »

It was a no win situation for Fannin.

No wins for sure

Rasputin11

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Does anyone have stats on scoring in recent years? Eg. Mullane used to score about 3.5 points per game or something like that over his career. (guessing what his average was as I can't remember)

An article in The Times had him down at about 3.65 a game.

hardybuck

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Statistics without context though should never be used as a measure to gauge anything.

In McGraths First 4 years in charge, the record for Munster teams was:

Tipperary: 5W 0D 2L
Waterford: 2W 1D 4L
Limerick: 2W 0D 4L
Clare: 1W 0D 4L
Cork: 6W 1D 2L

So their record was only worse than Tipps and Corks. They were beaten by the eventual winners each year, twice in Munster finals. They were never drawn in a quarter final, if they say had drawn Clare and Limerick along with Cork and 2015 or Cork and Limerick along with Clare in 2016 when they were strong they'd likely have another couple of wins.

The format change skews everything, they'll have more games in Munster this year and last than they had in the previous 4 years and they are struggling. And last year there were plenty of mitigating circumstances last year, you'd wonder could they potentially have beaten Cork if they knew going into it that they still could qualify.

I'm not saying bringing McGrath back is the answer but there's a misleading picture being presented I think to defend Fanning really it seems. The reality is the hurling league and championship are now completely different competitions to what they were two years and drawing a comparison across the range of both is a bit ridiculous.

We were within a puck of a ball of winning an all Ireland under McGrath, and while obviously that doesn't entitle him to the keys of the city and to manage Waterford whenever he feels like it...it should not be forgotten lightly, being that it was only the 4th occasion in a 135* year history that we could say the same.

To add further context, Clare won an All Ireland in the year preceding that window you've looked at, and Limerick won an All Ireland in 2018.

In the two finals you've mentioned, Waterford were beaten by 21 points in one and five in the other. These came in the lull after Clare won an All Ireland and before Limerick won one.

I can't believe you'd suggest bringing McGrath back. Whatever about changing manager at the end of the season, definitely don't go back - he had 5 years as manager so can't feel hard done by.

Mastermcgrath

I can’t beleive that people are still alluding to Derek McGrath as the reason the team isn’t performing. Crazy stuff. The buck stops with Fanning completely. Stop dressing it up this is an absolute shambles and he needs to go straight away. If he doesn’t resign after the weekend he needs to be removed. Otherwise There is no coming back from this **** show

Cornerstoner

I have thought long and hard about going to the match on Saturday. Initially I said no way after what I witnessed on Sunday in Walsh Park. "If they are not bothered to put in the effort then why should I". I then thought more about it during the week including the performances from Prunty and Lyons in particular who both fought to the bitter end. As one poster mentioned here, Lyons looked visibly upset when coming off the pitch Sunday it meant that much to him. Those two players are the reason I'm going tomorrow evening. I know they will give it their all and I want to support that

KevIRL

Good few changes to the team for Sunday apparently. Billy Nolan, Darragh Lyons, Shane McNulty, Brian halloran, Peter Hogan starting from what I heard and no starts for Moran, Connors or Austin gleeson

mountgomery burns

hardybuck wrote: »

To add further context, Clare won an All Ireland in the year preceding that window you've looked at, and Limerick won an All Ireland in 2018.

In the two finals you've mentioned, Waterford were beaten by 21 points in one and five in the other. These came in the lull after Clare won an All Ireland and before Limerick won one.

I can't believe you'd suggest bringing McGrath back. Whatever about changing manager at the end of the season, definitely don't go back - he had 5 years as manager so can't feel hard done by.

Where did I suggest bringing him back? Just want to say I didn't deliberately exclude 2013 and 2018 to make Clare/Limericks record look worse, I was looking at McGraths tenure prior to the format change. Just to highlight the statistic of a poor record in Munster (while yes it is true of course) is skewed and not a great measure of his tenure and most pertinently not a means to exonerate the current management team.