Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Garyp88

If hogan gives the referee no choice then he can only blame himself and to be honest the biggest game of the year was over as a contest after 35 minutes. Its a sad occasion when fans pay €90 a ticket for 35 minutes. Up until the incident it had all the makings of a classic. The standards of decisions this year have been poor just take the tipp v wexford semi final of the gaa are charging excessive amounts for tickets then please invest so games won't be decided over a decision

Ceist_Beag

Pigeon Chaser wrote: »

About big screen / camerawork in general. I didn't like the continuous close ups of Hogan following the sending off. In what was possibly the lads most upsetting moments in his life it didn't sit easy with me. They did the same with John McGrath V Wexford.

Fully agree, no need for it and it's not right.

laoisfan

Garyp88 wrote: »

If hogan gives the referee no choice then he can only blame himself and to be honest the biggest game of the year was over as a contest after 35 minutes. Its a sad occasion when fans pay €90 a ticket for 35 minutes. Up until the incident it had all the makings of a classic. The standards of decisions this year have been poor just take the tipp v wexford semi final of the gaa are charging excessive amounts for tickets then please invest so games won't be decided over a decision

Agreed - I always say it's not just the opposition you're playing against but the officials themselves. Never put the officials in a position where they have to think...whether you meant it or not. The fact they have to think...well....some officials get it spot on (like yesterday)...others just make a balls of it.

munsterlegend

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Fully agree, no need for it and it's not right.

I agree as well. Uncalled for.

gmurphy70

laoisfan wrote: »

Agreed - I always say it's not just the opposition you're playing against but the officials themselves. Never put the officials in a position where they have to think...whether you meant it or not. The fact they have to think...well....some officials get it spot on (like yesterday)...others just make a balls of it.

But if you mention it from the losing side it is sour grapes, I do have sympathy for Hogan as a Wexford man, simply because there is zero consistency, it was a sending off, so was Barry Heffernans punch in the semi final resulting in a fractured rib. Wexford couldn't buy a free in the last 20 mins for some reason??Better team won in the conditions of 15/14 Tipp mastered the extra man while we struggled in the semi final

galwaylad14

tibruit wrote: »

I think as a Galway fella, you`d be far better off concerning yourself with where your own prodigious talents keep disappearing to between minor and senior level. We`ll worry about our own house here thanks very much. Anyone who says that Tipp were the better team yesterday fundamentally fail to understand the game in my opinion. It was common knowledge that we needed to cut the supply to Tipps inside forwards and we had been doing that really well up to the sending off.

Once we went a man down there was only going to be one result. It`s a pity the ref didn`t spend more time with his linesman and whoever was in his ear upstairs examining the earlier Barrett tackle on Hogan. A high pull with the hurl, no intent to play the ball resulting in an actual facial injury. If there was any consistency Barrett should have walked for that challenge. As someone who spent a lot of money on tickets for the kids etc and have been doing so all year, I felt mugged by the refs decision yesterday.

I hope when the dust settles, Ritchie gives it another year. Barring injury and with his skill levels, I`d say he`s that kind of player that could play intercounty into his mid thirties. Either way he owes us nothing and is a true KK legend.

Since you’re using the price of tickets for your kids as some bizarre form of emotional blackmail against the refs decision surely you have to also feel “mugged” by the man who made the head high, late and dangerous tackle that forced the referee into applying the rules?

The Barrett one should have been yellow but never a red.

robbiezero

me89 wrote: »

Huw Lawlor was very good, he really stood up in the second half. We have fullback sorted for years to come.

Thought he was very good too today. Won some amount of ball that came in there lots of it that wouldn't have favoured him.
Certainly has nailed down that position.

JohnCougar

I am finished with the season tickets after the treatment of where we were put yesterday and with the disgraceful increase in the programme. It really is the grab all association. They really treat the ordinary supporters badly and they don't care.

kilkennyboy

Picking over the bones this morning couple of things bothered me beforehand .firstly to win a all Ireland things have to be right
Adrian sickness was a big worry beforehand
Richie Hogan heavily strapped knee
And was cillian right or were we taking a chance on him.

Tipp opted to play against the wind and were holding kilkenny pretty well. I felt we could have been maybe 1.9
To 4 up early on.but we were not clinical in front of goal and left scores behind.
Our backs were copeing fairly well with the tipp threat
And our forwards were forcing poor delivery which is so important.
Goal was a massive score and brought tipp right back but we were creating chances as well.

Trying to be as fair as one can be about hogans challenge .their was a similar incident in front of the hogan stand when barrett stepped inside richie out at the sideline as richie came to put him over the line.
And got his clearance away.couple that with his own bloody nose and another chance to nail him and it was definitely going to be a strong challenge.
The key for me is did he lift the elbow towards his head as he knew he missed the shoulder.
And their is no contact with the point of the elbow contact and their is contact is with richie's upper arm.

For me and its marginal it's a miss timed shoulder and it's a yellow and a strong chat.

The sending off changed the dynamics of the whole game .
It came just before half time and tipp could organise things at half time.
The key to kilkennys game plan is all about putting the delivery of ball under pressure from the other end of the field forcing at least 50/50balls coming from distance.
And with the extra man we couldn't close that space it allowed for delivery of ball into space that just wasn't their in the first half.
Thought our backs coped well under the circumstances
But it felt inevitable from when tipp scored the 2nd goal.
Wanted richie Leahy on earlier for legs instead of Buckley but didn't improve things when he did come in .
Was sure Browne would pick up noel McGrath from the start but bizarrely he didn't after the job he did in lynch.

Few of our lads didn't do themselves justice but just felt with the conditions and the fact we were going in a point down having had the elements in our favour. We were going to struggle richie's sending off changed the margin of victory and left a bad taste.

But overall better team won.

cantwbr1

galwaylad14 wrote: »

The Barrett one should have been yellow but never a red.

I have a little issue with this view of the earlier Barrett incident. He struck Hogan in the head with his Hurley with sufficient force to draw blood. Does that not fall into the same category as the sending off?

Does the response of the fouled player feed into the punishment given to the transgressor

Ceist_Beag

JohnCougar wrote: »

I am finished with the season tickets after the treatment of where we were put yesterday and with the disgraceful increase in the programme. It really is the grab all association. They really treat the ordinary supporters badly and they don't care.

Saw one couple in yesterday where the mother had a baby strapped to her chest (baby must have been no more than a few months old). They had to buy a ticket for the baby! :eek:
I have previously praised the GAA for the pricing up to the final* but Jesus they really need to remember who they represent and what they stand for. €7 for the programme is mad as well. Just keep on scalping lads and one day you'll find there aren't many queuing up to be scalped any more.

* €5 for children for an AI semi final is fantastic value although the cynic in me is starting to think they would dump that in a heartbeat if they thought they could fill Croker without having to get in families.

JohnCougar

We were beaten by the better team on the day.

The sending off was a red all day and it ruined the whole game after that.

Lads are saying here that Tipp had half time to sort out how they play against 14 and they did it to a tee with their passing game but what did we do at half time?? Nothing.

A few questions:

(1) Why was Bill Sheehan not in the 26 as he looked fine in the warm up yesterday?
(2) Richie Hogan had a ligament injury in his knee?? Was he 100%
(3) Mullan was sick during the week. Was he 100%
(4) What is the position on Cillian Buckley?? If he is not injured, he is not match fit,
(4) What has Liam Blanchfield done wrong this year??
(5) Is Colin Fennelly match fit? He looks to be struggling and looks very tired in games
(6) Why was TJ put in full forward as he was out of the game? We needed him out in the half forward line?
(7) Wally is doing less and less in big games? Is he fully fit also?? He looks tired and cumbersome??
(8) Why have we no plan B, C or D? Surely teams plan for a sending off on either team??


In connection with the minor team

Yesterday was our 9th game and Galways' 4th, yet they looked like a team with a game plan.
We had no game plan and our players looked like strangers.

That's two years in a row now that we were out played by Galway. They were bigger, stronger and better hurlers.

Where are all our good natural hurlers gone??

There needs to be a review of all development squads and also of the people over the whole set up.

The_Ghost

Lots of talking points after watching the game back today. First of all fair play to Tipp overall they deserved to win. Thanks to our lads for the effort this year we over achieved and who knows what would have happened it hogan didn’t go. Thought we started very well and our set up was great and made them panic and put bad balls in. We had 4/5/6 half goal chances and it just wouldn’t break. First 25 mins I thought Colin was on top but after that Ronan Maher came very good. During our good spell they stuck around, during there’s they got goals and we couldn’t stick around. To say tipp definitely would have won 15 vs 15 is foolish the game was tight coming into half time and momentum is always changing in games.

Same ref didn’t send off Galway player for closeline tackle on Colin in 2015 which was much worse. Buckley had a worse tackle and saw yellow in the semis. Hogan was going to nail him no doubt but he was trying to send em over the line. After that the game was done. The long ball tactic wasn’t going to work but thought tj did great to win and even break a lot of ball. Don’t think Barrett’s was a red either, a yellow. All we want in consistency.

Thought lawor was immense, won about 80% of the ball coming into him. A 5 min spell where he did no wrong. Thought Joey was foolish leaving bubbles in so much space but the game was prob done. And as mentioned the backs were terrific tipp didn’t over score at all they’ve been hitting that mark all year. John Donnelly terrific through out what a hurler also thought billy done well last 3 games. Walter should be in the corner I think but had a great chance to shoot for goal off his left but refused. Tj and Colin battled their best but it wasn’t to be. Richie hogan owes us nothing and he was heavily involved in the game before the red. Hopefully we’ve a good club championship and lads stay injury free.

We have the young hurler of the year. We have a great young full back. Two young forwards after stepping up. Conor Delaney looked good when he was on, we’ve him and Darren Mullen to get a good chance. Still waiting for Leahy to really hit the scene. Hopefully we’ve no retirements.

MfMan

tibruit wrote: »

I think as a Galway fella, you`d be far better off concerning yourself with where your own prodigious talents keep disappearing to between minor and senior level. We`ll worry about our own house here thanks very much. Anyone who says that Tipp were the better team yesterday fundamentally fail to understand the game in my opinion. It was common knowledge that we needed to cut the supply to Tipps inside forwards and we had been doing that really well up to the sending off.

Relax, I wasn't here to gloat. Simply raising as a point of debate the disconnect between KK's dominance at colleges level and relative paucity at Minor. One should complement the other you would think.

flasher0030

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

I don't think the rules specify intent. Maybe we need a video review and appeal system in place for these incidents. Hogan should have been allowed to raise the tackle on him. He was bleeding after all.

The rules cannot revolve around intent. A ref is not going to be able to read a players mind - if the challenge was an accident or was intentional. The intent point is not relevant at all. I can't understand how anybody can use as a defense.
When players take to the field, they give 100% to win. However, just as importantly, they have a duty of care to not injure an opposition player. That's what many of the rules are there for. A player cannot just go out and do what he wants and then claim it was accidental. That doesn't make any sense at all.

I agree that in some situations, refs can use a bit of common sense e.g. in situations of providing advantage, tackles in slippery conditions. But if a player doesn't abide by the rules and "accidentally" has his elbow up so that it can injure an opposing player, then red card is deserved all day long. There is no excusing it. Read some comments that it ruined the game. Again, that's not relevant at all. Tipperary couldn't care less if it went down as one of the most boring finals ever. Or Kilkenny wouldn't if the roles were reversed. The teams just want to win. The main objective for the teams is not the provision of entertainment.

The growler

cantwbr1 wrote: »

I have a little issue with this view of the earlier Barrett incident. He struck Hogan in the head with his Hurley with sufficient force to draw blood. Does that not fall into the same category as the sending off?

Does the response of the fouled player feed into the punishment given to the transgressor

Yes I would reckon how your head moves after being elbowed played a part in the ref's decision....

Hogan ain't a dirty player but that's beside the point. Red card all day long. No point in moaning about it. It definitely changed the game of course. I think Tipp had gotten on top anyway and had the wind in the second half but of course nobody can ever say Tipp would definitely have won.

Hard luck with the defeat, no point making it worse by moaning about a decision that I firmly believe was 100% the correct call.

kilkennyboy

MfMan wrote: »

Relax, I wasn't here to gloat. Simply raising as a point of debate the disconnect between KK's dominance at colleges level and relative paucity at Minor. One should complement the other you would think.

Minor is u17
College hurling is under 18.5
I think 10 or 12 of the kierians team are playing senior club hurling.
Looking at the u17 they are just to young it should never have been changed

pissedasanewt

gmurphy70 wrote: »

But if you mention it from the losing side it is sour grapes, I do have sympathy for Hogan as a Wexford man, simply because there is zero consistency, it was a sending off, so was Barry Heffernans punch in the semi final resulting in a fractured rib. Wexford couldn't buy a free in the last 20 mins for some reason??Better team won in the conditions of 15/14 Tipp mastered the extra man while we struggled in the semi final

Wexford took their foot off the pedal, but the ref in that game decided to let it flow, in otherwords, ignore any persistent fouling. I would have liked to have seen a Wexford v Limerick final.. KK got their on guts this year, but they need to add a bit of guile and ruthlessness over the next 2-3 years.

Village87

After 2 heavy defeats yesterday my question is where are our wristy clever hurlers gone. They are nearly extinct in Kilkenny, the second half was depressing. The only chance we had was running the ball out of the backs and playing it through the lines , but instead we went route one playing it into there hands, turning over possession very easily and letting Tipp counter attack us. The backs defended well but there distribution was awful. Conor Fogarty got cleaned for the first goal and is very poor in the air, too many balls went through him and offers very little to the Kilkenny team. Compare this to the Tipp backs who were clever on the ball, strong in the air and were able to run and work it out of the backs.

We were cleaned out of it Midfield, Buckley and Browne skill levels are very basic, Buckley struggles to strike the ball properly and Browne had a good first 15 but got outplayed after. Leahy and Maher really should have started or at least one of them.

Forwards are getting a lot of slack but the ball going into them was terrible, Wally had a strong opening 20 mins and was nullified by Padraic Maher after that, TJ worked hard and won plenty of ball and John Donnelly had a great game but the only possession he was getting was by winning hard ball. Full Forward line was cleaned and had little chance with 14 men.

Kilkeny were very slow on the line and got the 15 starting wrong, and the Plan B after the sending off did not work.

Last Stop

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Since you’re using the price of tickets for your kids as some bizarre form of emotional blackmail against the refs decision surely you have to also feel “mugged” by the man who made the head high, late and dangerous tackle that forced the referee into applying the rules?

The Barrett one should have been yellow but never a red.

So if you’re applying the rules however is Barrett’s never a red? He hit the man across the head with his hurl. By the letter of the rules that’s a red card?

tibruit

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Since you’re using the price of tickets for your kids as some bizarre form of emotional blackmail against the refs decision surely you have to also feel “mugged” by the man who made the head high, late and dangerous tackle that forced the referee into applying the rules?

The Barrett one should have been yellow but never a red.

Barretts tackle on Hogan was head high, dangerous, with no attempt to play the ball and resulted in a visible facial injury. Once the ref let that go, he should have let the later one go as well as there was minimal contact and no injury, just a lot of theatrics that created an initial impression that the tackle was far worse than it actually was.

Faugheen

tibruit wrote: »

Barretts tackle on Hogan was head high, dangerous, with no attempt to play the ball and resulted in a visible facial injury. Once the ref let that go, he should have let the later one go as well as there was minimal contact and no injury, just a lot of theatrics that created an initial impression that the tackle was far worse than it actually was.

Barret was clearly trying to play the ball.

Honestly, what game were you watching?

There's no comparison between Barrett and Richie. Barrett tried to play the ball, Richie tried to play the man.

kilkennyboy

tibruit wrote: »

Barretts tackle on Hogan was head high, dangerous, with no attempt to play the ball and resulted in a visible facial injury. Once the ref let that go, he should have let the later one go as well as there was minimal contact and no injury, just a lot of theatrics that created an initial impression that the tackle was far worse than it actually was.

To be fair and that is the all we can be in a depressed state.look at the barrett tackle on richie he is very close to making contact with the ball and the follow through does the harm.it was a yellow but if he makes contact with the ball probably not even a free.

tibruit

Faugheen wrote: »

Barret was clearly trying to play the ball.

Honestly, what game were you watching?

There's no comparison between Barrett and Richie. Barrett tried to play the ball, Richie tried to play the man.

He hadn`t a clue where the ball was because he was behind Hogan. The swing wasn`t within two feet of it. It was a reckless.

Last Stop

Faugheen wrote: »

Barret was clearly trying to play the ball.

Honestly, what game were you watching?

There's no comparison between Barrett and Richie. Barrett tried to play the ball, Richie tried to play the man.

Ahhh I missed the footnote in the rule book that you’re allowed to pull across someone’s head if you’re trying to play the ball.
Honestly I don’t think anyone would have complained if both were given yellows and the game went down to the wire. Not exactly by the rules but if you don’t apply the rules consistently like the above shows then common sense needs to come in.

Faugheen

tibruit wrote: »

He hadn`t a clue where the ball was because he was behind Hogan. The swing wasn`t within two feet of it. It was a reckless.

You're chatting ****e there mate. A yellow card at most. He can see the ball, tries to play it and just misses it. What happened in the aftermath is unfortunate but it's a clear attempt to play the ball and fine margins got in the way of that.

Richie went to do him, Barrett checked his run and Richie threw out the elbow. It was a stupid, stupid challenge and honestly, I think most Kilkenny fans have accepted that at this stage.

Doctors room ghost

JohnCougar wrote: »

I am finished with the season tickets after the treatment of where we were put yesterday and with the disgraceful increase in the programme. It really is the grab all association. They really treat the ordinary supporters badly and they don't care.

What price was the programme

kilkennyboy

tibruit wrote: »

He hadn`t a clue where the ball was because he was behind Hogan. The swing wasn`t within two feet of it. It was a reckless.

Leave it be.honest enough effort to flick the ball

Last Stop

Faugheen wrote: »

You're chatting ****e there mate. A yellow card at most. He can see the ball, tries to play it and just misses it. What happened in the aftermath is unfortunate but it's a clear attempt to play the ball and fine margins got in the way of that.

Richie went to do him, Barrett checked his run and Richie threw out the elbow. It was a stupid, stupid challenge and honestly, I think most Kilkenny fans have accepted that at this stage.

I’ll ask again...if you’re applying the rules however is Barrett’s A yellow? He hit the man across the head with his hurl. By the letter of the rules that’s a red card.

holyhead

Sending off ruined the game as a spectacle. Barrett’s wild swing understandably infuriated Hogan. Hogan best riposte would have been scores but it’s easy be wise when not in the heat of the battle.