Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

rubadub

Garibaldi? wrote: »

it would be nice to hire a scooter to find out if you'd like using one before buying. But they're 100 euros a night. Pity you couldn't hire one for a couple of hours for about 30 quid!

at that price you'd be better off buying a used one and selling it the next day again, should sell for the same price.

Halfords do a free 48hour trial of electric bikes. I imagine some scooter place might be doing it cheaper, or even free.

https://www.halfords.ie/cycling/bikes/electric-bikes/free-48-hour-electric-bike-trial

antodeco

Would an AM licence cover you for one of these?

grogi

antodeco wrote: »

Would an AM licence cover you for one of these?

If it is an MPV - you don't have insurance, which is much bigger deal.
If it isn't an MPV - you don't need to have any licence.

antodeco

grogi wrote: »

If it is an MPV - you don't have insurance, which is much bigger deal.
If it isn't an MPV - you don't need to have any licence.

You can get insurance for one of these elsewhere in Europe, and any insurance offered in Europe is fully valid here. So i can sort that out if needed. If I knew the licence also covered it, then that's another bit that's "legal". Would just be the tax.

...Ghost...

antodeco wrote: »

You can get insurance for one of these elsewhere in Europe, and any insurance offered in Europe is fully valid here. So i can sort that out if needed. If I knew the licence also covered it, then that's another bit that's "legal". Would just be the tax.

If they were to be covered under any existing license, it would be a moped license, or a B license from before 2006.

antodeco

...Ghost... wrote: »

If they were to be covered under any existing license, it would be a moped license, or a B license from before 2006.

Weirdly, my licence is pre 2006 and I only have the AM and tractor (W?) on my licence. I always thought the moped licence (A?) was included

...Ghost...

antodeco wrote: »

Weirdly, my licence is pre 2006 and I only have the AM and tractor (W?) on my licence. I always thought the moped licence (A?) was included

It is. A pre summer 2006 B Licence automatically covers a moped.

antodeco

...Ghost... wrote: »

It is. A pre summer 2006 B Licence automatically covers a moped.

Apologies, we may be talking about the take thing. Is that the AM category? That's the only "A" category included on my licence.

Or do you mean that the "B" actually includes it?

dilallio

Garibaldi? wrote: »

it would be nice to hire a scooter to find out if you'd like using one before buying. But they're 100 euros a night. Pity you couldn't hire one for a couple of hours for about 30 quid!

100euros per day rental is a crazy price. And according to his website, the customer assumes full responsibility for any accidents or loss/damage to the scooter up to 700 euros.
My reading of his terms and conditions is that you could spend 100 euro for the rental, and if the gardai seized it, you will also be liable for the scooter at his hugely inflated price of 700 or 800 euros.

...Ghost...

antodeco wrote: »

Apologies, we may be talking about the take thing. Is that the AM category? That's the only "A" category included on my licence.

Or do you mean that the "B" actually includes it?

The AM category is a moped, or anything under 50cc. It's separate to what I am talking about. I have an AM category on my full B license because I got my full B in time. Anyone with 2007+ Full B license needs a separately achieve an license for a moped (AM).

antodeco

...Ghost... wrote: »

The AM category is a moped, or anything under 50cc. It's separate to what I am talking about. I have an AM category on my full B license because I got my full B in time. Anyone with 2007+ Full B license needs a separately achieve an license for a moped (AM).

Yes perfect. We are both discussing the same thing!

ED E

An escooter doesnt meet the requirements of a moped or motorbike. They'd need to be type rated to use one legally as such and they won't make that standard.

EG:
Stop lamps 6.4.3.2. Height: minimum 250 mm, maximum 1 500 mm above ground.
Rear lamps 6.6.3.2. Height: minimum 250 mm, maximum 1 500 mm above the ground.

There are hundreds of lines of requirements, among lighting alone the documents are long. These have taken over from old Irish legislation that did the same thing.

You can't get a number plate
You cannot use an MPV in Ireland without a plate
You cannot use it outside your garden.

Its that simple. If you dont like that email your TD.

antodeco

...so the answer to my question is no, an AM category doesn't cover an eScooter....

That probably would've been easier, and less agressive, to type, rather than the above.

beauf

This thread is 72 pages long and 12 months.

Mainly because eScooters have no official status or category and most aren't willing to accept that.

In that context you got a quick answer.

beauf

I had a lot of hassle with my licence renewals over the years. They removed a lot of categories from it. It took about 6 months of fighting just to get the date of my original license on it.

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

This thread is 72 pages long and 12 months.

Mainly because eScooters have no official status or category and most aren't willing to accept that.

In that context you got a quick answer.

The number of pages depends on a what version you are viewing. The desktop version I am viewing is 58 pages as of your last post

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

I had a lot of hassle with my licence renewals over the years. They removed a lot of categories from it. It took about 6 months of fighting just to get the date of my original license on it.

Lazy admin work I assume. I will keep that in mind when mine is due for renewal.

Johnboy1951

beauf wrote: »

I had a lot of hassle with my licence renewals over the years. They removed a lot of categories from it. It took about 6 months of fighting just to get the date of my original license on it.

They did that to mine also many years ago when the licence changed format.

I never did get around to reinstating the lost categories

As it turned out I never needed any of them ..... included motorbike and heavy truck IIRC.

This has caused me to ponder .... I had a licence for those categories, so am I still licenced for them although they have been omitted from my present licence?

It might make an interesting case if stopped for not having a suitable current licence showing the category.

...Ghost...

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

They did that to mine also many years ago when the licence changed format.

I never did get around to reinstating the lost categories

As it turned out I never needed any of them ..... included motorbike and heavy truck IIRC.

This has caused me to ponder .... I had a licence for those categories, so am I still licenced for them although they have been omitted from my present licence?

It might make an interesting case if stopped for not having a suitable current licence showing the category.

If the category is not on your license, then you don't have a license for that category. I would get that sorted. The onus is on you to have a current valid license in the category of the vehicle you are operating.

beauf

That would a lot easier if they didn't take them off.

rubadub

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

you mentioned that electric wheelchairs get dispensation even though they are fully powered all the time and not just providing assistance. Have you come across any specification for what constitutes an electric wheelchair?

When used on the road is it stated, rather than implied, that the wheelchair must be occupied by a person with a 'disability which necessitates the use of' such a vehicle?

In other words, what is the legal situation if a commuter uses an electric wheelchair instead of walking?

I was looking this up and saw nothing about having to be disabled, I expect that would introduced all sorts of needless red tape.

I cannot find anything on irishstatutebook but on UK & Irish sites they seem to all say a max speed of 4mph on footpaths and 8mph on roads.

RSA mention no speed limits
http://rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Special_Purpose_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20Motorised%20Wheelchairs%20and%20Mobility%20Scooters.pdf

this UK site has more (of course the law may be different here)
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-users-of-powered-wheelchairs-and-mobility-scooters-36-to-46

Johnboy1951

rubadub wrote: »

I was looking this up and saw nothing about having to be disabled, I expect that would introduced all sorts of needless red tape.

I cannot find anything on irishstatutebook but on UK & Irish sites they seem to all say a max speed of 4mph on footpaths and 8mph on roads.

RSA mention no speed limits
http://rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Special_Purpose_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20Motorised%20Wheelchairs%20and%20Mobility%20Scooters.pdf

this UK site has more (of course the law may be different here)
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-users-of-powered-wheelchairs-and-mobility-scooters-36-to-46

Thanks for checking.
I have had similar lack of solid information.
Lots of opinion but no specific links to the aspects I wondered about.

From the two links you provided one says

Wheelchair users (which includes those using powered wheelchairs or mobility scooters) should face oncoming traffic in the same manner as if they were being pushed by an adult, they should also use a footpath or hard shoulder where possible at all times and cross the road at pedestrian crossings,
traffic lights or at a location that gives them the best view of any approaching traffic.

When on the road, Class 3 vehicles should travel in the direction of the traffic. Class 2 users should always use the pavement when it is available. When there is no pavement, you should use caution when on the road. Class 2 users should, where possible, travel in the direction of the traffic. If you are travelling at night when lights MUST be used, you should travel in the direction of the traffic to avoid confusing other road users.

There is a clear contradiction here if I am reading it properly.
It seems in Ireland you should go against traffic, while in UK you should go with traffic! :eek:

How that would work out in Irish traffic or even on rural roads boggles the mind!

I recall many years ago being at a 'road show' where I had the opportunity to try a standard manual wheelchair with an adaptation that provided electric drive through one front wheel and handlebars to control it. It could be 'snapped' on to the front frame of most standard manual chairs apparently, essentially converting one to a three-wheeler with the front wheel powered and the existing front wheels raised off the ground.
I think it reached speeds of about 12 Kmph (not certain I remember that correctly). It most definitely felt fast to use, and was quite uncomfortable on the standard wheels of the chair (solid rubber narrow tyres). I expect with more suitable wheels/tyres it would be a good solution for some. I have no idea if such things are still available.

It was something similar to this I recall trying

https://batec-mobility.com/en/blog/handbikes/857-turn-your-manual-wheelchair-into-an-electric-chair-in-seconds

beauf

This is what you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA9k-dz7Bqw

Johnboy1951

beauf wrote: »

This is what you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA9k-dz7Bqw

hehehehehehehe

hadn't seen that previously

ED E

FWIW you're using the wrong term

"invalid carriage" means a mechanically propelled vehicle the weight unladen of which does not exceed 6 cwt. and which is specially designed and constructed for the use of persons suffering from a physical defect or disability and which is used solely by such persons;

In 1963 a Gard would tell an abled bodied person to fvck off if spotted on one perhaps, nowadays they'd never risk the discrimination lawsuit.

The terminology changed in '12

(g) In this sub-article, ‘pedestrians’ includes any person using a wheelchair, mechanically propelled, or otherwise.”,

They can drive in cycle lanes, act like pedestrians. Definition looks to be changed in the ROTR but not the SIs so the requirements are just that it be less than 272KG and for disabled persons.



I think it would be legal to be 90% blind and to drive one of these. Another instance of the RTAs being horribly messy and outdated.

Johnboy1951

ED E wrote: »

FWIW you're using the wrong term



In 1963 a Gard would tell an abled bodied person to fvck off if spotted on one perhaps, nowadays they'd never risk the discrimination lawsuit.

The terminology changed in '12



They can drive in cycle lanes, act like pedestrians. Definition looks to be changed in the ROTR but not the SIs so the requirements are just that it be less than 272KG and for disabled persons.



I think it would be legal to be 90% blind and to drive one of these. Another instance of the RTAs being horribly messy and outdated.

I guess it just goes to show that there are severe inconsistencies across the board when it comes to motorised personal transport.

BTW, I honestly thought that the term "invalid carriage" had been long since wiped from all regulations.

in-valid is not a term that sits well with most people when referring to mobility impairment and its solutions.

RHJ

This might be of interest to someone Xiaomi a releasing a new electric bike; I'd say this is more legal than the scooter.

https://electrek.co/2019/04/08/xiaomi-himo-c20-electric-bike/amp/

ewj1978

posted in another thread. Garda is quite clear in his explaination of the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G12b3kgDwRA

ewj1978

posted in another thread. Garda is quite clear on the law.

cojomo2

ewj1978 wrote: »

posted in another thread. Garda is quite clear on the law.

That's not an escooter he's seizing though, it's one of those electric unicycle things. The second person he pulls is on an e scooter but its a throttled one that doesn't require a push start, so in both cases they are clear cut MPVs so no surprises here.