Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

rubadub

beauf wrote: »

No reason you should have to fake human assistance.

I have wondered why the pedelecs require this human assistance. I thought it might be a safety issue.

If they did legalise these scooters for road use I wonder if they would accept throttled ebikes.

beauf

The only reason I can see is to limit average speeds and top speeds.

It also easier to police, as you can see some one pedalling. It also has health benefits.

rubadub

beauf wrote: »

The only reason I can see is to limit average speeds and top speeds.

If that was the case the scooters may need a lower top speed.

beauf wrote: »

It also easier to police, as you can see some one pedalling.

I don't follow this thought, if throttled ebikes were allowed people would be just using them and not pedalling, so no policing would be needed.

With the way the laws are not it just makes it easier to spot people on non-road legal ebikes, as they are not pedalling. At the moment this does make it easier to spot ones which are more likely to have limits above 25km/h

beauf wrote: »

It also has health benefits.

This could be a reason they do exempt them, and why they would not want to exempt something with no health benefits.

I think the pedelec definition on irishstatutebook is only listed in reference to the cycle to work scheme, which I think was partly brought about to promote health benefits. If fully throttled ebikes were road legal they might still be excluded from the scheme.

beauf

Throttled ebikes are not pedelecs. As such they fall under MPV, same eScooters. You have similar problems trying to tax and insure them.

I'm not sure what you don't follow about seeing someone not cycling is easy to spot.

rubadub

beauf wrote: »

Throttled ebikes are not pedelecs. As such they fall under MPV, same eScooters.

yep I realise this. I was wondering why are throttled ebikes with limited speed and power not road legal in the first place when pedelecs are -simply because your legs are moving and could be providing very little additional force.

Just wondered if there was something I was missing which would make me thing "aha, well there is no way those scooters should get away with not having to continuously be putting effort in"

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

Theres a bit more to it than that.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/04/health/scooter-injury-cdc-investigation-partner/index.html

Nothing in that article was any different to the dangers of a bicycle. I already mentioned the problem being how riders leave the scooters laying about.

Personally, I would rather fall off, or be struck by a rider of an e-scooter than a bicycle, as there is less chance of serious injury and more chance of avoiding injury completely.

beauf

...Ghost... wrote: »

Nothing in that article was any different to the dangers of a bicycle. I already mentioned the problem being how riders leave the scooters laying about.

Personally, I would rather fall off, or be struck by a rider of an e-scooter than a bicycle, as there is less chance of serious injury and more chance of avoiding injury completely.

Its debatable in a number of area. A bicycle is arguably more stable. So less likely to come off. Weights are similar.
The damage is done by the mass of the rider+bicycle/scooter hitting you. or falling off it. Which is more or less the same damage wise.

Anyway the point is the danger isn't mainly about tripping over them. There's more to it.

Also you are trying to imply that bicycles are more dangerous for some reason, while also arguing its similar. Which is contradictory.

Anyway there are some early stats on it

The research, published Jan. 25 in JAMA Network Open, is the first published study on injuries caused by electric scooters. It reports that the most common mechanisms of injury among scooter riders were falls (80 percent), collisions with objects (11 percent), or being struck by a moving vehicle such as a car, bicycle or other scooter (9 percent).

Among the other findings:

About 92 percent (228) of the injured people were riders, and 8 percent (21) were non-riders, including pedestrians who were struck by scooter riders or who stumbled over a discarded scooter.

There is another article that claims scooters are more dangerous than cycling. But its behind a paywall. If I had to guess I'd say is easier to fall of a scooter than a bike. But that just a guess on my part.

beauf

rubadub wrote: »

... pedelecs are -simply because your legs are moving and could be providing very little additional force....

You still have to put in a decent effort.
You are limited by the effort you can put it.
You can't pretend to cycle.

cojomo2

beauf wrote: »

You still have to put in a decent effort.
You are limited by the effort you can put it.
You can't pretend to cycle.

Not true. I had an ebike...put it in the lowest gear and barely moved the crank get full power.

SteM

Different bikes have different torques.

cojomo2

SteM wrote: »

Different bikes have different torques.

Some ebikes use a torque sensor, the motor gives a proportionate amount of power depending on how hard the user cycles.

Other have a crank sensor, as long as the crank is turning (no matter how slow), the motor releases full power.

beauf

Not all eBike are pedelecs and some places would consider such a design an illegal modification designed to circumvent the legislation. As it would require a throttle.

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

Its debatable in a number of area. A bicycle is arguably more stable. So less likely to come off. Weights are similar.
The damage is done by the mass of the rider+bicycle/scooter hitting you. or falling off it. Which is more or less the same damage wise.

Anyway the point is the danger isn't mainly about tripping over them. There's more to it.

Also you are trying to imply that bicycles are more dangerous for some reason, while also arguing its similar. Which is contradictory.

Anyway there are some early stats on it



There is another article that claims scooters are more dangerous than cycling. But its behind a paywall. If I had to guess I'd say is easier to fall of a scooter than a bike. But that just a guess on my part.

I have to say that I have found more stability on an e-scooter. I am not saying one is safer than the other, I am giving my own "personal" preference, so there is no contradiction there.

For a direct impact, my thinking is if a scooter rider hits me, the impact will be similar to someone jogging, or running into me. The rider has a better chance of stepping off and controlling the impact which will be a leg, hip, or torso impact. A cyclist at similar speed would end up rugby tackling me to the ground, possibly flying over the handle-bars.

Falling from the scooter, you might be able to compose yourself, or you might fall flat on your face. It's not likely you will fly over the handle-bar, but it's a painful possibility I hope I never experience. When falling from a bicycle, you have less control, as you can't just put your feet down and going over the top is always a big possibility.

I feel safer on a scooter. I'm sure others feel safer on bicycles. It's not a competition, just a preference.

beauf

The stats and physics don't agree with you. But you are entitled to your opinion.

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

The stats and physics don't agree with you. But you are entitled to your opinion.

If you want to talk physics, you need more than the radius of a wheel to back up your assertion.

A link to credible comparable stats would help your disagreement trump my opinion. So far, stats I have seen have thrown e-scooters of all speeds into the one boat, alongside e-boards, e-hoverboards and pretty much every mode of micro mobility device. That's like throwing every moped, motorcycle and three wheeler into the mix for bicycle stats.

beauf

Considering there will be far less scooter riders than pedestrians and cyclists...

..standing electric scooters have been associated with 249 emergency room visits ...Over the same 12-month period, researchers measured only 195 visits for bicycle injuries and 181 for pedestrian injuries ...

Also by a huge margin the vast majority of scooter accidents are people falling off them. I'm not saying they are dangerous. People fall even when walking.
But you implied they are safer than bicycles. The numbers don't support your assertion. Perhaps you mean you personally feel safer which is fair enough.

That's even before you get into the wheel size. Even between different eScooters, wheel size and if solid or air has a big effect.
https://scooterpartner.com/everything-about-electric-scooter-tires/

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

Considering there will be far less scooter riders than pedestrians and cyclists...



Also by a huge margin the vast majority of scooter accidents are people falling off them. I'm not saying they are dangerous. People fall even when walking.
But you implied they are safer than bicycles. The numbers don't support your assertion. Perhaps you mean you personally feel safer which is fair enough.

That's even before you get into the wheel size. Even between different eScooters, wheel size and if solid or air has a big effect.
https://scooterpartner.com/everything-about-electric-scooter-tires/

The very same article you quote says:

Data on scooter-related injuries are collected by the Consumer Product Safety Commission's National Electronic Injury Surveillance System (NEISS), but the category also includes skateboards and hoverboards, which account for the bulk of the injuries in the most recent data

The article does not clarify the types of e-scooters the accidents relate to, but lets say that most of them are BIRD, LIME or other rental scooters. I would ask how many of those injured people had used an e-scooter before, or had worn a helmet. If someone had never ridden a bicycle and hopped on a DCC rental bike and took to the road, how likely will they be to cause an injury? We don't have real statistics, only a few biased articles with massaged figures from both sides.

I haven't implied e-scooters are safer, or by extension, that bicycles are more dangerous. I have said that I "personally" would prefer to be struck by, or fall off an e-scooter. I clarified this in a later post responding to you and I gave reasons why I hold this preference.

When I talk about e-scooters, I am talking about the push start ones, (M365, Kugoo etc) which are not fast and most cyclists outpace them. It's a whole different ball game when we start lumping them into the same category as mopeds, which is what lots of the more powerful e-scooters are.

I would never cycle a bicycle with a solid rubber tyre, so I wouldn't ride a scooter with one either. Bigger wheels are preferable, but then I also prefer being upright rather than sitting if I am to best prevent an injury. Pros and Cons to both.

beauf

Bicycle accidents stats when reported, (for commuting etc) include people and children who fell off trying to do a stunt in their garden, MTB or racing. Get used to it.

But I like the way you dragged mopeds into a conversation that had nothing to do with them. Its bit like how they drag motorcycle accidents stats into cycling stats.

...Ghost... wrote: »

...Bigger wheels are preferable....

...Ghost... wrote: »

If you want to talk physics, you need more than the radius of a wheel to back up your assertion. ...

Anyway tripping over them isn't only cause of accidents.

quarryman

The same article also points out that a lot of the injuries would have been limited if helmets had been worn. Which a lot of people on scooters don't.

If anything, that article indicates scooters are safer.

I've done enough miles on a bike and on a scooter to know that I feel safer on the scooter.

grogi

quarryman wrote: »

The same article also points out that a lot of the injuries would have been limited if helmets had been worn. Which a lot of people on scooters don't.

If anything, that article indicates scooters are safer.

I've done enough miles on a bike and on a scooter to know that I feel safer on the scooter.

And I feel immortal. I even can back it up with my ~40 years of experience... Does it make it true?

beauf

quarryman wrote: »

The same article also points out that a lot of the injuries would have been limited if helmets had been worn. Which a lot of people on scooters don't....

I see a few years back Casey Neistat started wearing a full face helmet on his boosted board. Save on dentist bills anyway.

quarryman

grogi wrote: »

And I feel immortal. I even can back it up with my ~40 years of experience... Does it make it true?

If you are immortal then you can use a scooter or a bike.

gfog

https://fora.ie/readme/e-scooters-ireland-law-4567914-Apr2019/


https://fora.ie/e-scooters-ban-dublin-4571100-Apr2019/

rubadub

beauf wrote: »

You still have to put in a decent effort.
You are limited by the effort you can put it.
You can't pretend to cycle.

I have a bosch system on my bike. I can tip along with little effort, quite slowly though, certainly not as fast as guys I see on unicycle things going 30kmh. That is what I was suggesting about some sort of pedal having to be fitted to a scooter, I did not just mean some superficial thing doing nothing, it would need some force and supply additional power to the scooter. I wondered if this would put them in a similar class as a pedelec.

I have not seen the law describing them, only the finance law relating to bikes available on the bike to work scheme -which was a copy and paste job from EU regs.

But I am still wondering why they decided a throttled bike needs tax, insurance etc, but the pedelec doesn't. If they feel the limitations of a pedelec are needed then I wonder would they consider a scooter or throttled bike with some sort of limitation. Like a lower top speed, shorter range.

Just seems odd to exempt due to having to put some effort in.

CH3OH

Prime Time on RTE1 have a segment on electric scooters . Programme starts soon.

ON now

beauf

Nothing new maybe but at least it's getting media attention.

cojomo2

Has anyone here decided to leave the scooter at home until the law is clarified/updated?

...Ghost...

cojomo2 wrote: »

Has anyone here decided to leave the scooter at home until the law is clarified/updated?

If people started doing that, we would be left waiting for legislation for a very, very long time. People need to keep doing what they are doing and show it's not just a fad.

Garibaldi?

it would be nice to hire a scooter to find out if you'd like using one before buying. But they're 100 euros a night. Pity you couldn't hire one for a couple of hours for about 30 quid!

cojomo2

...Ghost... wrote: »

If people started doing that, we would be left waiting for legislation for a very, very long time. People need to keep doing what they are doing and show it's not just a fad.

Agree but the risk of being done for no insurance and all the associated pain is putting me off.