Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

beauf

cojomo2 wrote: »

https://news.escoot.ie/stopped-by-garda-on-my-m365/

Garda stops M365 and acknowledges its not an MPV after closer inspection.

Ah yeah one Garda says no, another Garda says yes. So which one is right. The one that gives the answer you want. Everyones happy. Until you meet the other Garda.

These scooters and skateboards have been out of a couple of years now. How on earth can it take so long to get some legislation around them.

It reminds of the legislation of cycle lanes being mandatory change, which almost soon as it was enacted it was removed. Because it was stupid. But it took about 3yrs of bithering around.

beauf

His latest argument seems to be that if you can't tax and insure it, its not a MPV.

https://news.escoot.ie/seems-city-council-forcing-garda-to-get-rid-of-escooters-and-other-erides/

Maybe I should try that with a death chariot. Ah I can't tax or insure it, so it must be legal without it.

cojomo2

beauf wrote: »

Ah yeah one Garda says no, another Garda says yes. So which one is right. The one that gives the answer you want. Everyones happy. Until you meet the other Garda.

These scooters and skateboards have been out of a couple of years now. How on earth can it take so long to get some legislation around them.

It reminds of the legislation of cycle lanes being mandatory change, which almost soon as it was enacted it was removed. Because it was stupid. But it took about 3yrs of bithering around.

Yes but it backs up the point I made that the law isn't clear..and even if that guy had his scooter taken, he could always go to court and argue that the guidance on MPVs is lacking and likely would win hia case.

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

You mean the way a car need you to push the accelerator to get a car moving, or put it into gear using a clutch. It won't move on its own. So its not a MPV either. The engine will stop if it has stop start. Same with electric cars. Same with petrol powered bicycles or non Pedelac eBikes.

Only scooters are different. Makes perfect sense....not.

Are you seriously comparing the two? Talk about apples and cucumbers.

Unless you are driving this there is no comparison.

beauf

...Ghost... wrote: »

...

Are you seriously comparing the two? Talk about apples and cucumbers.

....there is no comparison.

The fantasy rule you made up was that the vehicle won't move off without human intervention.

Don't blame me when its nonsense.

beauf

Anyway it's stupid to have one Garda doing one thing and another doing the opposite.

I suspect is running into the pro car lobby that hates anything that makes cars look bad. It's the same crowd that are anti cycling.

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

The fantasy rule you made up was that the vehicle won't move off without human intervention.

Don't blame me when its nonsense.

If you're going to be oppositional for the sake of it, you're really adding nothing to the conversation. You know very well what I was saying Fred.

Johnboy1951

...Ghost... wrote: »

No.

Cars can also be started with a push, but unless there is a mechanical fault, the engine keeps running and the car can move off again under the power of the engine alone. This is not the case with the majority of e-scooters. Once you come to a stop, you need to manually push off before the motor will engage. If you were able to get moving again after coming to a stop, it would be an mpv under the current definition.

Is that really made clear in the legislation?
I realise that is your opinion of the situation, but is it clear in legislation?
I believe not ....... in which case legislative change is needed to clarify it, if that is the desired result.

All vehicles that required manual intervention to move off would have to be excluded.
EDIT:
The amount of manual intervention would also need to be defined.
Such as intervention not required during normal operation of the vehicle when moving (would eliminate accel & brake use for instance).

...Ghost...

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Is that really made clear in the legislation?
I realise that is your opinion of the situation, but is it clear in legislation?
I believe not ....... in which case legislative change is needed to clarify it, if that is the desired result.

All vehicles that required manual intervention to move off would have to be excluded.
EDIT:
The amount of manual intervention would also need to be defined.
Such as intervention not required during normal operation of the vehicle when moving (would eliminate accel & brake use for instance).

Without clarity, we can only make our own interpretations of the regulations. Lets all hope we get clarity soon.

grogi

There is a very simple test: can you get up a hill with an elevation of 20m without burning any callories? Yes - it's an MPV. No - it's not.

beauf

My interpretation is it allows a death chariot. I have to use a finger to start it. Then it runs for 100k at 50kph. But its ok because it won't start on it own.

cojomo2

beauf wrote: »

My interpretation is it allows a death chariot. I have to use a finger to start it. Then it runs for 100k at 50kph. But its ok because it won't start on it own.

Do you have to physically propel this death chariot yourself ( by cycling/scooting/pushing it) for some distance before the motor can be engaged?

ED E

How many times does this need to be said.


THE

ASSISTED

CLAUSE

APPLIES

ONLY

TO

BICYCLES


For all other types of vehicle it doesnt matter what it does once it has a motor its an MPV. This push to start discussion is utter bullsh1t.

‘ pedal cycle ’ means—

(i) a bicycle or tricycle which is intended or adapted for propulsion solely by the physical exertions of a person or persons seated thereon, or

(ii) a pedelec,

but does not include a moped or a scooter;

‘ pedelec ’ means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling;

beauf

cojomo2 wrote: »

...
Do you have to physically propel this death chariot yourself ( by cycling/scooting/pushing it) for some distance before the motor can be engaged?

How far do I have to push to qualify. 1cm or 50m.

beauf

cojomo2 wrote: »

...
Do you have to physically propel this death chariot yourself ( by cycling/scooting/pushing it) for some distance before the motor can be engaged?

How far do I have to push to qualify. 1cm or 50m.

beauf

ED E wrote: »

How many times does this need to be said....

They aren't listening anyway.

beauf

Maybe the EU will come up a law and we'll just copy it.

I've noticed that most of the Scooters I've seen are always being overtaken by cyclists. They seems to be because the slow down a lot on hills gradients and the they can't handle a poor surface as well as a bicycle.

I assume at some point well start to see improved scooters that might have better tyres and more torque. Interesting the new m365 model they have made it harder to remove the limiter. Which I assume it's a means of helping legislation to define them. Thus gain mass acceptance.

Despite all my messing I think they are great. Can't wait to see how they develop.

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

Maybe the EU will come up a law and we'll just copy it.

I've noticed that most of the Scooters I've seen are always being overtaken by cyclists. They seems to be because the slow down a lot on hills gradients and the they can't handle a poor surface as well as a bicycle.

I assume at some point well start to see improved scooters that might have better tyres and more torque. Interesting the new m365 model they have made it harder to remove the limiter. Which I assume it's a means of helping legislation to define them. Thus gain mass acceptance.

Despite all my messing I think they are great. Can't wait to see how they develop.

We usually copy UK laws, but here's hoping something logical is adopted no matter where it comes from. I would have a speed limited preference, because power is needed to climb inclines.

The 365 handles relatively well because of the pneumatic tyres and the radius is bigger than a few models I have seen around the town.

Removing the speed limiter on the first version of the 365 only adds 4 or 5kmph to the speed, so you won't get any whiplash from that improvement. I would get the firmware upgrade if I was sure it would give extra torque on hills, but there is no evidence I have seen to prove it does.

I think seizures will become more common in the short term and not just because there are more of the scooters on the road, but because there are some strange looking ones too. Yesterday I spotted one that had a sort of X frame, a seat and a large front wheel. I doubt it was a kick-off type and it was more like a small e-bike.

Markcheese

beauf wrote: »

How far do I have to push to qualify. 1cm or 50m.

Well the pedelec bikes can't have a throttle, you stop pedaling, they stop powering,
Whereas a electric scooter is just push off to start, then the motor does all the work...
Having said that, they're convenient, portable and aren't taking up loads of space in city centre, the sooner they're regularised the better...

antodeco

Recently I went out for lunch from work and went on my scooter. Got the restaurant and there were no bike racks nearby. Several bikes chained to lampposts, poles, etc, blocking paths and very close to parked cars. I folded my scooter up and tucked it under the table I was sitting at. Far safer for a pedestrian as no paths were being partially blocked by bikes.

There are pro's and cons for scooters over bikes. The problem is how specific legislation is, that it doesn't account for eScooters. They should start off with basics such as, front and rear lights required at all times. Helmet required. No allowance on paths etc. I know bikes should have this, and a lot don't, but it's easier to confiscate a scooter if grey in legislation if those above basics aren't met.

beauf

Be interesting to see how the US deals with them. They have loads of scooter sharing schemes and are having some issues.

rubadub

beauf wrote: »

Thats 12-14 mph (20-22 kmh) Which is slower than someone on a regular bicycle. On a electric bicycle you will be faster. Even allowing for traffic, and lights etc.

I am slower commuting on my ebike than my old hybrid, which was a clapped out bike only working on one gear with heavy and relatively wide heavy puncture proof tyres. It also had commuter suspension which zaps power out. My ebike has the more powerful Bosch performance motor which when I got it was only on a handful of the more expensive bikes.

cojomo2 wrote: »

https://news.escoot.ie/stopped-by-garda-on-my-m365/

Garda stops M365 and acknowledges its not an MPV after closer inspection.

people have come across gardai who think helmets are legally required for cyclists. Random gardai on the street are little better than "blokes in the pub".

If they were legal surely people would be modifying very high power motorbikes to exploit this apparent loophole in the law.

cojomo2

ED E wrote: »

How many times does this need to be said.


THE

ASSISTED

CLAUSE

APPLIES

ONLY

TO

BICYCLES


For all other types of vehicle it doesnt matter what it does once it has a motor its an MPV. This push to start discussion is utter bullsh1t.

From RSA
What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

Battery powered scooters are regarded as a "type of bike" going by above.

ED E

The RSA are frequently wrong, and this is another example. They're applying an exemption for bicycles and tricycles to scooters.

Note the document does not give references to legislation. Its the legislation you should be reading.

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

Be interesting to see how the US deals with them. They have loads of scooter sharing schemes and are having some issues.

The problems are more-so with users discarding them all over the place when finished with them. They should have dedicated spots to leave them when finished, similar to bicycle rentals.

grogi

cojomo2 wrote: »

From RSA

It has been shown numerous times that the RSA website should be taken with big caveats.

rubadub

cojomo2 wrote: »

From RSA
What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

Battery powered scooters are regarded as a "type of bike" going by above.

My take on this was that, yes, the scooters could be considered similar to ebikes, BUT that would mean that power would only kick in and assist you when somebody scoots, i.e. it would have to have a sensor in it like the pedelecs to recognise that somebody is pushing it with their foot and give assistance, and instantly stop afterwards -just like an ebike does.

I was theorising that the scooter could be fitted with some sort of foot pedal that you would actively have to press down, like a bike pedal, to be actively applying power.

Otherwise people could get an ebike with a throttle and once going needs not pedalling, but which requires a push to start, and then if questioned they could claim it is a scooter.

beauf

...Ghost... wrote: »

The problems are more-so with users discarding them all over the place when finished with them. They should have dedicated spots to leave them when finished, similar to bicycle rentals.

Theres a bit more to it than that.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/04/health/scooter-injury-cdc-investigation-partner/index.html

beauf

rubadub wrote: »

My take on this was that, yes, the scooters could be considered similar to ebikes, BUT that would mean that power would only kick in and assist you when somebody scoots, i.e. it would have to have a sensor in it like the pedelecs to recognise that somebody is pushing it with their foot and give assistance, and instantly stop afterwards -just like an ebike does.

I was theorising that the scooter could be fitted with some sort of foot pedal that you would actively have to press down, like a bike pedal, to be actively applying power.

Otherwise people could get an ebike with a throttle and once going needs not pedalling, but which requires a push to start, and then if questioned they could claim it is a scooter.

I think it would be easier just allow them limited. Limited to certain speeds and in certain areas like cycle paths and certain roads. Same as a Bicycle. No reason you should have to fake human assistance.

Mickeroo

...Ghost... wrote: »

The problems are more-so with users discarding them all over the place when finished with them. They should have dedicated spots to leave them when finished, similar to bicycle rentals.

The scooter issues in the US featured a fair bit in the last season of south park.