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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

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    #272
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,427 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Theres a good article here on electric scooters ride share and London

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electric-scooters-london-san-francisco-lime-bird-spin


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    #273
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    eamondunphy wrote: »
    as the xiaomi scooters need a couple of leg pushes to get going, does that mean they are legal without a licence and insurance?


    That article in the independent gives that impression. But no.


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    #274
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Ok let's play law abiding citizen..

    Where can you insure your electric push start scooter?
    How do you tax and get a licence plate?


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    #275
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    @drunkmonkey (and others of course :) )

    As you appear to have delved into the legal aspect of this, maybe you could comment .....

    you mentioned that electric wheelchairs get dispensation even though they are fully powered all the time and not just providing assistance. Have you come across any specification for what constitutes an electric wheelchair?

    When used on the road is it stated, rather than implied, that the wheelchair must be occupied by a person with a 'disability which necessitates the use of' such a vehicle?

    In other words, what is the legal situation if a commuter uses an electric wheelchair instead of walking?

    OK, it is a bit far-fetched, but stranger things have been known to happen. :D


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    #276
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    There was a case of a disabled guy a few weeks ago done for drink driving in his wheelchair in the UK (he was using it on the roads). I'm not a copper or a solicitor so wouldn't go on my advice bit the RSA seem pretty clear, if it can move itself it's mechanically propelled. So scooting is fine but once your start running that electric motor it's now classed as a vehicle.

    This Irish website has a different take on it, I'd like to see what law their referencing though https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/


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    #277
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    According to An Garda website all scooters 'capable' of (not necessarity used in that manner) self propulsion have to be licenced, taxed, insured etc.
    What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters?
    The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.
    https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853

    Yet, apparently it is impossible to register such a scooter because there is no Cert. of Conformity produced for each individual scooter, like there is for a car. Neither is it possible to get insurance if what I have read is correct.

    That would appear to invoke the Garda position that they "should only be used on private property".

    The only question is that if it requires a push to start does that negate the Garda position?

    So the official Garda position would appear to be that they are illegal for use except on private property.


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    #278
    quarryman
    Registered Users Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭quarryman


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    According to An Garda website all scooters 'capable' of (not necessarity used in that manner) self propulsion have to be licenced, taxed, insured etc.


    https://www.garda.ie/en/FAQs/?id=4853

    Yet, apparently it is impossible to register such a scooter because there is no Cert. of Conformity produced for each individual scooter, like there is for a car. Neither is it possible to get insurance if what I have read is correct.

    That would appear to invoke the Garda position that they "should only be used on private property".

    The only question is that if it requires a push to start does that negate the Garda position?

    So the official Garda position would appear to be that they are illegal for use except on private property.

    Regarding a Certificate of Conformity, I found this via google.

    https://download.appmifile.com/142_updatepdf_in/30/05/2018/07f21e02-371c-4ec6-b698-ac93b5de8587.pdf


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    #279
    IBrows89
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭IBrows89


    I'm not sure if this was mentioned previously, I take it this is the exact same then for the electric skateboards.

    It would be very difficult to get caught on one of these as you could just start push/kicking if you spotted a Garda.

    I think these are a good means of transport if you live in a city centre and there should be some way to use these legally. At the moment the only reason I could see these not coming in is because they they take money away from the public transport services.


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    #280
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    IBrows89 wrote: »

    It would be very difficult to get caught on one of these as you could just start push/kicking if you spotted a Garda.

    Yes but it'll cost you the price of a solicitor to challenge the Garda on that point in court. Depending on the Garda he could confiscate it and hit you with a load of fixed charge penalties.


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    #281
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    quarryman wrote: »
    Regarding a Certificate of Conformity, I found this via google.

    https://download.appmifile.com/142_updatepdf_in/30/05/2018/07f21e02-371c-4ec6-b698-ac93b5de8587.pdf

    That seems to be a different document than required for road vehicles.

    My understanding is that each individual vehicle needs a CoC which would have (usually) chassis number and engine number etc etc so the vehicle can be specifically identified.
    I am unsure if a general CoC would conform to the needs of the Irish system.


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    #282
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    IBrows89 wrote: »
    I'm not sure if this was mentioned previously, I take it this is the exact same then for the electric skateboards.

    It would be very difficult to get caught on one of these as you could just start push/kicking if you spotted a Garda.

    I think these are a good means of transport if you live in a city centre and there should be some way to use these legally. At the moment the only reason I could see these not coming in is because they they take money away from the public transport services.

    A very brief examination of the scooter would reveal it has an 'accelerator', which according to the Garda webpage, makes it illegal on the road unless it conforms to the motor vehicle regs.


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    #283
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters?
    The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.



    Reading this statement it is clear the M365 does not meet this requirement. It will not start without you having to push off....so it does require scooting for propulsion.....


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    #284
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,127 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    It does have an accelerator though...


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    #285
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    It does have an accelerator though...




    so does this, I haven't seen the Garda pull over my 3 year old yet:P

    Has a gear box as well....2 forward/1 reverse...not sure if that counts.....



    shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDbf8oXNAbmxSIMvysKdDDVH59-4VzuJOiiXc2qtrtBwMfIKDY_tYdXza_0LU4VNp7TAKfGBJjOtQ&usqp=CAc


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    #286
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters?
    The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.



    Reading this statement it is clear the M365 does not meet this requirement. It will not start without you having to push off....so it does require scooting for propulsion.....

    Pushing off isn't scooting.

    Otherwise you could just push start a car.


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    #287
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    beauf wrote: »
    Pushing off isn't scooting.

    Otherwise you could just push start a car.


    and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion

    Just to highlight the part again


    The M365 does require scooting for propulsion


    I do expect 3-4 pages of people now arguing over this so off you go...I have better thing to do with my life :p.


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    #288
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion

    Just to highlight the part again


    The M365 does require scooting for propulsion


    I do expect 3-4 pages of people now arguing over this so off you go...I have better thing to do with my life :p.

    You could try arguing that with the beak, but I doubt it would be accepted.
    It CAN be driven without use of pedal or push, just not started like that.

    How about disabling the electric start on your car and see how you would fare?


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    #289
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    You could try arguing that with the beak, but I doubt it would be accepted.
    It CAN be driven without use of pedal or push, just not started like that.

    How about disabling the electric start on your car and see how you would fare?




    What is a beak?



    As above, based on your information my 3 year old now requires a license, insurance and tax



    His car doesn't even push start, you just floor it and go......


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    #290
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion

    Just to highlight the part again

    The M365 does require scooting for propulsion

    I do expect 3-4 pages of people now arguing over this so off you go...I have better thing to do with my life :p.

    That you won't argue your point, means you don't believe in it either.


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    #291
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    ...
    His car doesn't even push start, you just floor it and go......

    You should test your theory, use it to get to work some day.


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    #292
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    beauf wrote: »
    That you won't argue your point, means you don't believe in it either.


    Why do I need to argue when I am right? :confused:



    Other people agree with me:

    https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/chinas-xiaomi-enters-irish-market-with-three-scooter-and-phones-sales-tieup-37479634.html
    The launch represents a stepping up of electric scooter sales in Ireland, despite legal and regulatory challenges. Under Irish law, many electric scooters are regarded in a similar category as motorbikes, meaning that they must be taxed and insured, with a driver's licence required.
    However, Xiaomi's Mi Electric Scooter requires a manual push start like an electric bicycle. Ebikes are not required to be taxed and insured, nor do they require a driver's licence


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    #293
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    What is a beak?



    As above, based on your information my 3 year old now requires a license, insurance and tax



    His car doesn't even push start, you just floor it and go......

    Are you arguing that it would be legal for him to drive on the road?
    If he cannot get a licence, road tax, insurance and a cert of roadworthiness then he cannot be legal regardless.


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    #294
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Why do I need to argue when I am right? :confused:

    Other people agree with me:

    https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/chinas-xiaomi-enters-irish-market-with-three-scooter-and-phones-sales-tieup-37479634.html
    The launch represents a stepping up of electric scooter sales in Ireland, despite legal and regulatory challenges. Under Irish law, many electric scooters are regarded in a similar category as motorbikes, meaning that they must be taxed and insured, with a driver's licence required.
    However, Xiaomi's Mi Electric Scooter requires a manual push start like an electric bicycle. Ebikes are not required to be taxed and insured, nor do they require a driver's licence

    Correction, you're agreeing with the indo, and you don't even know if what they wrote is correct.

    They called it a push start. Which isn't scooting.
    Though scooting doesn't mean what you're implying. You could say I'm scooting down to the shops in the car.
    You don't push start an electric bicycle. Those bicycles with petrol motors do actually need a push start. They are not legal.
    Electric bicycle is a not a useful description, as there are different classes of bicycles. Some legal and some not legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle.

    I hope they do put some rules in to make eScooters legal. They are have eScooter Sharing schemes in some US cities like BleeperBikes do here.
    Probably a bigger issue is the poor surface and interface between roads and paths here. Some are too bad for bicycles. Never mind a tiny scooter wheel.
    Great device. Very hard to securely lock them though.


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    #295
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Are you arguing that it would be legal for him to drive on the road?
    If he cannot get a licence, road tax, insurance and a cert of roadworthiness then he cannot be legal regardless.


    I am not arguing anything....


    This reminds me of thread on motors forum, I asked about putting a tank of diesel up....at the end someone had convinced himself that I would require planning for a jungle gym in my garden :eek::eek::eek:

    Sorry correction

    Both you and Beauf seem to think you know what you are talking about.....carry on

    But might be idea to open a new thread, I dont think people need to see 5-6 pages of this


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    #296
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    It was all discussed in the first 3 pages of this thread.

    The conclusion then is the same as now. Don't be an idiot and likely a blind eye will be turned. Unless you get a cop having a bad day or are unlucky and cause someone an injury.

    Just a pity they don't clarify it. But then it took them years to sort out mandatory use of cycle lane. So I wouldn't hold your breath.

    Be nice if we had some long term report of people experiences who have been using scooters. There's some on the web but I've not seen anything from Ireland other then the short comments on this thread. In other places they have become a viable transport alternative for people. Bit like the boosted boards and similar.


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    #297
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    I suspect that when such devices become more popular the Garda will have a serious job ignoring them, and they will receive instructions on what they should do, rather than relying, as seems to be the case presently, on what some colleague says is their interpretation of the law.

    A few complaints from other road users is all it will take I reckon .....


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    #298
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,427 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters?
    The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.



    Reading this statement it is clear the M365 does not meet this requirement. It will not start without you having to push off....so it does require scooting for propulsion.....
    Nonsense it has to assist not keep going


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    #299
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,427 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Why do I need to argue when I am right? :confused:



    Other people agree with me:

    https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/chinas-xiaomi-enters-irish-market-with-three-scooter-and-phones-sales-tieup-37479634.html
    The launch represents a stepping up of electric scooter sales in Ireland, despite legal and regulatory challenges. Under Irish law, many electric scooters are regarded in a similar category as motorbikes, meaning that they must be taxed and insured, with a driver's licence required.
    However, Xiaomi's Mi Electric Scooter requires a manual push start like an electric bicycle. Ebikes are not required to be taxed and insured, nor do they require a driver's licence

    The engine in electric bikes only works while peddling. If you stop peddling the engine by law cuts out.


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    #300
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    This came up years ago and a mate thats in the Traffic Corps said that "if the motor or engine is capable of propelling the vehicle at any point without physical effort by the user at the same time it is a MPV".

    Interestingly, you can strap a model jet engine on the back of a push bike and it would be legal in theory as there is no direct drive to the wheels.


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    #301
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    ...Interestingly, you can strap a model jet engine on the back of a push bike and it would be legal in theory as there is no direct drive to the wheels.

    Can you link or quote the statute that makes that legal. What do you mean by legal.


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