Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

ED E

beauf wrote: »

What different does push to start one and push to start every time make.

What is the point (objective) of requiring human assistance.

It doesnt, Ghost is totally wrong. Push to start is not assist and assist only applies to bicycles.

rubadub

...Ghost... wrote: »

The difference is how people interpret what is and what is not an MPV. One person will say that the requirement to push off from a stand-still makes an e-scooter an assisted device. Another person will argue that non-continuous human effort makes the same e-scooter an MPV.

I think the real question is why on earth would they have left such a stupid loophole/exploit open, and the fact that motorbikes are not currently exploiting this supposed loophole makes me think there is no loophole.

Or are there other things needed, like speed limits etc. Even still plenty of people would like to have a moped even with limited speed as it would be fine for some people commuting.

beauf

...Ghost... wrote: »

The difference is how people interpret what is and what is not an MPV. ...

Thats not my question.

My question why the requirement for human assistance. Why the distinction between pedelecs and s-pedelecs. Why are they classified differently.

ED E

The line had to be drawn somewhere Beauf.



This is electric, we need something in law to stop this being used as a pedal cycle.

beauf

ED E wrote: »

The line had to be drawn somewhere Beauf.



This is electric, we need something in law to stop this being used as a pedal cycle.

Why? Preferable answered by Ghost. You and I know why.

There seems no really thought as to why its important.

...Ghost...

ED E wrote: »

It doesnt, Ghost is totally wrong. Push to start is not assist and assist only applies to bicycles.

You are entitled to your opinion and your interpretation of the law and legislation. I am entitled to mine which is in contrast to yours. Push start is an assist and assist does not only apply to bicycles. If it was so clear cut, we would not be having a discussion about it.

beauf wrote: »

Thats not my question.

My question why the requirement for human assistance. Why the distinction between pedelecs and s-pedelecs. Why are they classified differently.

Your question was not clear. I'm not a legislator, or lawyer, so I can't answer your questions with anymore clarity than I already have.

beauf wrote: »

Why? Preferable answered by Ghost. You and I know why.

There seems no really thought as to why its important.

Is there a reason you want me specifically to answer your question? I have made it clear that I have my opinion and interpretation on the legislation around kick to start e-scooters. I have also given my opinion on speed limits, so the e-bike above would quite clearly fall outside of what I would consider to be exempt from the requirement for a license, tax and insurance.

beauf

...Ghost... wrote: »

Y...Is there a reason you want me specifically to answer your question? I have made it clear that I have my opinion and interpretation on the legislation around kick to start e-scooters. I have also given my opinion on speed limits, so the e-bike above would quite clearly fall outside of what I would consider to be exempt from the requirement for a license, tax and insurance.

You seem to just pick arbitrary criteria. With no consideration of the why?

Why speed limits. No speed limit for a bicycle, or someone walking, or running.

ED E

Ghost is bordering on a Freeman argument at this point.

You are entitled to your opinion and your interpretation

Finance 2 08

‘ pedelec ’ means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with...

But I don't expect plain english to get through your legal concept of my dreams are reality.

beauf

ED E wrote: »

...a Freeman argument...

Had to look that up

...Ghost...

beauf wrote: »

You seem to just pick arbitrary criteria. With no consideration of the why?

Why speed limits. No speed limit for a bicycle, or someone walking, or running.

That is because this is a discussion forum where we can discuss what we think. I suggest speed limits for e-scooters because I don't think it's responsible to exempt them if they can zip down the cycle lane at 100km/h.

I don't mention speed limits for bicycles, because I am not talking about bicycles and I am not talking about how fast a person can run. They have already banned children from running in most primary schools, so it wouldn't be a huge surprise if they tried to limit the speed people can run

ED E wrote: »

Ghost is bordering on a Freeman argument at this point.


Finance 2 08


But I don't expect plain english to get through your legal concept of my dreams are reality.

Swat down a reasonable post with freeman sh1te and petty condescension. Well done. You must be feeling very smart. Carry on.

rubadub

ED E wrote: »

Finance 2 08

The finance act is about the cycle to work scheme. I was saying before they seemed to do a cut & paste job from an eu regulation. I don't think pedelec appears in any other law.

https://irishcycle.com/2017/05/27/gardai-warn-bikes-with-petrol-engines-attached-are-low-powered-motorcycles/

Sergeant Frawley said: “The key to whether or not a vehicle is a mechanically propelled vehicle for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act 1961 lies with its means of propulsion. Each vehicle has to be looked at on its own merits. Thus if a vehicle is or can be propelled other than manually, it is a mechanically propelled vehicle for the purposes of the 1961 Act. E.g. a motor bike is propelled by a petrol engine not by pedalling; or a motorised scooter as it can be totally propelled by its engine.”

“If a vehicle has a source of power which only aids a vehicle’s manual propulsion and cannot propel the vehicle on its own, then the vehicle is not an mpv for the purposes of the 1961 Act. Into this category would fall an electrically-assisted bicycle. This is because the vehicle stops when the pedalling stops,” said Sergeant Frawley.

He added: “In relation to the electric units, electrically assisted pedal cycles are commonly referred to as ‘pedelecs’ to describe bicycles with electric motors or batteries too small to drive them without pedalling. Their speed is limited to 25km per hour and the motor cuts out if pedalling ceases. In contrast, mopeds can move without assistance of pedals. For guidance, if an electric bike can be operated without pedalling, it is a moped, ie a low-powered motorcycle and is subject to motor tax.”

In 2002, The Irish Times reported that the Department of Environment “declared that electrically-assisted bicycles were not liable for motor tax following a review of the status of the machines within the terms of Ireland’s road traffic laws.”

A department spokesman is quoted as stating: “This is because the electric power of a ‘pedelec’ only assists the pedalling effort and is not a source of propulsion in its own right. On this basis, pedelecs are not subject to the legal requirements relating to compulsory insurance and road tax.”

If that is correct I would presume a pedelec which can only be started by cycling, but continues supplying power thereafter, would be a MPV, just like I believe these scooters are.

It just make no sense why other vehicle manufacturers would not be exploiting the law which some people think exists.

beauf

rubadub wrote: »

T...If that is correct I would presume a pedelec which can only be started by cycling, but continues supplying power thereafter, would be a MPV,...

They are generally know as S-pedelec in europe.

beauf

rubadub wrote: »

...It just make no sense why other vehicle manufacturers would not be exploiting the law which some people think exists.

Most things look too much like mopeds or Vesta's or motoerbikes etc, or didn't have enough of an advantage over something else

https://www.greenfinder.de/news/show/duesenspeed-die-schweizer-e-bike-rennmaschinen/?cHash=38fbf273c6ebc61c1ef730b56a9ce6aa&utm_source=CleverReach&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=10-03-2017%20KW%2010&utm_content=Mailing_11167998

They've also stuck to countries who have got their laws sorted out.

Garibaldi?

Electric bikes are legal because when you stop pedalling the motor runs down and would stop entirely if you did not start pedalling again."Pedal-assist" The scooter obviously has no pedals and once started it keeps on going. It was discussed on Ray Darcy today.

beauf

Not all electric bikes work the same.

rubadub

beauf wrote: »

They are generally know as S-pedelec in europe.

my understanding was that s-pedelecs (speed pedelecs) were higher power and up to 45km/h, not that they did not require pedaling for the motor to work. Maybe some are like that but searching there I find many sites and none suggest it, most saying assist stops when it reaches 45km/h

I also believed the s-pedelec, as I described it, would not be road legal without the required insurance etc.

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Electric bikes are legal because when you stop pedalling the motor runs down and would stop entirely if you did not start pedalling again."Pedal-assist" The scooter obviously has no pedals and once started it keeps on going. It was discussed on Ray Darcy today.

was anything else said on the show, were they suggesting the push start scooters were road legal or not?

ED E

rubadub wrote: »

The finance act is about the cycle to work scheme. I was saying before they seemed to do a cut & paste job from an eu regulation. I don't think pedelec appears in any other law.

Not just that. It adds a definition to the primary act (Road Traffic Act) for what Pedelecs are. So then the road traffic act no longer makes pedelecs an MPV which before 2008 they were.

prinzeugen

Is this still being discussed? As I have been saying for months and as the Garda said in the quote a few posts back, electric scooters are MPVs!

There is no loophole about push starting them. It does not exist. If the motor can move you without physical effort they are a MPV. They don't have pedals so are not cycles.

Under current domestic law, they need the user to have a Cat M licence (minimum), they must be road registered, taxed and insured.

Garibaldi?

rubadub wrote: »

my understanding was that s-pedelecs (speed pedelecs) were higher power and up to 45km/h, not that they did not require pedaling for the motor to work. Maybe some are like that but searching there I find many sites and none suggest it, most saying assist stops when it reaches 45km/h

I also believed the s-pedelec, as I described it, would not be road legal without the required insurance etc.


was anything else said on the show, were they suggesting the push start scooters were road legal or not?[/QUOTE The general gist of the discussion was that the scooters were not legal, but that a blind eye was being turned to this fact. Also, that there would be a definite decision made about them in the near future. The advantages in making them legal were mentioned ie the reduction in traffic and the fact that they were eco-friendly.

machiavellianme

prinzeugen wrote: »

Is this still being discussed? As I have been saying for months and as the Garda said in the quote a few posts back, electric scooters are MPVs!

There is no loophole about push starting them. It does not exist. If the motor can move you without physical effort they are a MPV. They don't have pedals so are not cycles.

Under current domestic law, they need the user to have a Cat M licence (minimum), they must be road registered, taxed and insured.

Surely they also need lights?
I'm sick of stumbling upon these in the dark, chugging along and their rider dressed entirely in black with no illumination.

...Ghost...

prinzeugen wrote: »

Is this still being discussed? As I have been saying for months and as the Garda said in the quote a few posts back, electric scooters are MPVs!

There is no loophole about push starting them. It does not exist. If the motor can move you without physical effort they are a MPV. They don't have pedals so are not cycles.

Under current domestic law, they need the user to have a Cat M licence (minimum), they must be road registered, taxed and insured.

For the push start ones, like the popular M365, physical effort is required from the user to get them moving.

A Garda, or strangers on the internet don't have definitive answers on this, so we need to wait for clear legislation and not a wooly line on the Garda website we are all polarised about.

machiavellianme wrote: »

Surely they also need lights?
I'm sick of stumbling upon these in the dark, chugging along and their rider dressed entirely in black with no illumination.

Most of them have good front lights....though the rear lights could certainly do with an improvement.

creedp

...Ghost... wrote: »

Most of them have good front lights....though the rear lights could certainly do with an improvement.

Could be describing most modern cars with daylight running lights here!

beauf

creedp wrote: »

Could be describing most modern cars with daylight running lights here!

Not with you?

Grassey

beauf wrote:

Not with you?

Front leds only. No illumination. No rear lights.

prinzeugen

...Ghost... wrote: »

For the push start ones, like the popular M365, physical effort is required from the user to get them moving.

A Garda, or strangers on the internet don't have definitive answers on this, so we need to wait for clear legislation and not a wooly line on the Garda website we are all polarised about.
.

Sorry it is 100% crystal clear. For the one millionth time! Myself and others plus the Garda have made it clear.

If the motor can propel you AT ANY POINT without physical effort it is a MPV. That is the law in Ireland and repeatedly saying "its a grey area" or "there is no definitive answer" is bollox sorry!

In simple terms - Its not about how you get them moving. Its about how they move you.

They are illegal under current road traffic laws. End of story!

paruss100

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sorry it is 100% crystal clear. For the one millionth time! Myself and others plus the Garda have made it clear.

If the motor can propel you AT ANY POINT without physical effort it is a MPV. That is the law in Ireland and repeatedly saying "its a grey area" or "there is no definitive answer" is bollox sorry!

In simple terms - Its not about how you get them moving. Its about how they move you.

They are illegal under current road traffic laws. End of story!

Where in the law does it use the words "at any point".

Passed an electric bike today on my way to work and it momentarily was powered without any effort from the cyclist, suppose they are MPV's now too?

beauf

paruss100 wrote: »

Where in the law does it use the words "at any point".

Passed an electric bike today on my way to work and it momentarily was powered without any effort from the cyclist, suppose they are MPV's now too?

Some of them are yes.

Tazium

Enjoying the conversation and the debates. Really looking forward to having some certainty and closure and moving on with the evolution of personal transport options.

Just to add more fuel, Garda don't make the law. They, interpret it and uphold it to the best of their ability and would be well placed for knowing it better than a lay person. That said, it will need a case judgement to set or expand some precedent in law and some kind of legislation to get away from the uncertainty. The 'law' predates these personal transport options by decades and needs to be modernized in line with practice. Pretty standard stuff really.

rubadub

paruss100 wrote: »

Passed an electric bike today on my way to work and it momentarily was powered without any effort from the cyclist, suppose they are MPV's now too?

What speed were they doing? some bikes have a walk function which can power the motor without pedalling but only to a slow walking pace. If it was being powered without pedalling at a normal cycling speed then yes, it is likely a MPV.

paruss100

rubadub wrote: »

What speed were they doing? some bikes have a walk function which can power the motor without pedalling but only to a slow walking pace. If it was being powered without pedalling at a normal cycling speed then yes, it is likely a MPV.

It was going from a stop and the cyclist briefly pedaled then stopped and I heard the motor keep whirring for a couple of seconds.

But anyway as a previous poster said, these laws are outdated and need to change. Was a story a few months ago about Noel Rock trying to get something through the Oireachtas but havnt heard anything since.