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Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

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    #722
    sarcasticus magnificus
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭sarcasticus magnificus


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Reading some of the comments here you'd be forgiven for thinking that the palesinians are all in Gaza and that Hamas is the governing majority group. And that palestinians are the aggressors.



    I rest my case.

    I was speaking specifically about Gaza, not the west bank, and specifically about this current round of violence in Gaza. Hamas is the governing group in Gaza.
    In this case, the Palestinians are the aggressors. Did Israel invade Gaza or did Gaza try to breach the fence and invade Israel?


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    #723
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,863 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Oh, I'm familiar with the history. I won't be dragged to a never ending argument about who was there first, who did what to whom, who owned the land 2000 years ago and all that, especially since you'll probably claim that in 1948 the newly created Israel violently and murderously went out and attacked every Arab in the neighbourhood plus 6 Arab countries...
    Keep living in the past and you will have no future and unfortunately the Palestinians are living in the past. Israel won't go anywhere and they need to start understanding that and accepting it.

    So the Palestinians need to accept their land being stolen and accept the ongoing Israeli violence against them?

    Wow.


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    #724
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Its always bizarre to me, that people expect Palestinians to get over what happened in 1948, as if it was a one off event and that Israel hasn't been stealing Palestinian land since 1948. You can't get over something that is still happening to you.

    Also, Israel's entire land claims is a biblical one, so I don't think pro-Israel people are in a position to talk about Palestinians needing to forget ancient history.


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    #725
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    wes wrote: »
    Its always bizarre to me, that people expect Palestinians to get over what happened in 1948, as if it was a one off event and that Israel hasn't been stealing Palestinian land since 1948. You can't get over something that is still happening to you.

    Also, Israel's entire land claims is a biblical one, so I don't think pro-Israel people are in a position to talk about Palestinians needing to forget ancient history.

    Plus there's the fact that the majority of the west bank is under israeli control. To simply move from city to city is a nightmare. Unless you're israeli and you use the flyover roads.

    Just after 3;30 on this video they start illustrate the settlement building, and the zones of control for Palestinians/Israelis, using a map.



    The settlements aren't in israel but they are all under israeli jurisdiction. Can you imagine that happening in any other country? If a large group of English people decided to start taking land around Dublin, started building "settlements" which were walled off, controlled the majority of Ireland via military occupation and fought tooth and nail against Ireland and the Irish to be recognised as a nation.


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    #726
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    When all else fails........

    Predictable.

    Racisim only goes one way?
    Good to know.


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    #727
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Back when Jordan was in control of the area, there was not a peep about "liberate the palestinians". They didn't do it, and there was no public outcry about them not doing it.

    Back when Egypt was in control of the area, there was not a peep about "liberate the palestinians". They didn't do it, and there was no public outcry about them not doing it.

    But when it's the Israelis? Everyone goes ape.

    Is just bare faced anti-semitism.

    Bollox. Just plain bollox.

    take me for example. I recognize the right of israel to exist. However i don't recognize the right of israel to occupy and oppress millions of people. Nearly every post I make I have to make clear that I think hamas too are cnuts. Simply because if you recognise that the situation is complex and there are groups on both sides who are murderous cnuts apparently you hate jews.

    BTW, if you wonder why I never complained about the jordanian occupation of the westbank, it ended 50 years ago. I wasn't even alive at that point.


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    #728
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Racisim only goes one way?
    Good to know.

    Its an epic logic fail when pro-Israeli supporters raise the bogeyman of ‘anti-Semitism’ when they aren’t doing too well defending the indefensible. Almost as bad as raising the equally silly notion that Israel is under an ‘existential threat’ when its not. I dont know what you’re worried about anyway. You’ve got Uncle Donald in the White House to protect your beloved ‘liberal democracy’ and give it carte blanche to do whatever it likes to ‘protect’ itself.


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    #729
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    BTW, I googled the Jordanian occupation. Only three countries in the world recognised it as legitimate and the Arab League condemned it.


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    #730
    sarcasticus magnificus
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭sarcasticus magnificus


    wes wrote: »
    Its always bizarre to me, that people expect Palestinians to get over what happened in 1948, as if it was a one off event and that Israel hasn't been stealing Palestinian land since 1948. You can't get over something that is still happening to you.

    Also, Israel's entire land claims is a biblical one, so I don't think pro-Israel people are in a position to talk about Palestinians needing to forget ancient history.

    Considering the fact that the Palestinians (in 1948 they were just Arabs and had no national identity) and the surrounding Arab countries were the ones to attack the newly formed state of Israel in 1948, I do think it might be time for them to learn from history and from their mistakes and abandon their holy war against Israel to concentrate on making their lives better.

    Israel's land claim is not just biblical. There was always a Jewish presence in Israel, and up to 1948 the Jews were hecticly buying lands from the Ottomans, the British and the Arabs.
    Considering the fact that many of the Arabs who were then in Israel were Arabs brought by the Ottomans as cheap labor, I don't really understand what better claim you think the Palestinians have to the land.

    Let's not forget also, that the land the Palestinians "lost" was not stolen.
    Israel was divided between the Jews and Arabs in 1948. Two new states where none existed before. The Arabs did not accept the partition of the land and went to war against the Jews with the help and support of the surrounding Arab countries.
    To their shock and dismay - they lost even though they were certain they were going to push all the Jews into the mediterranean sea, and haven't stopped whining about it since.

    Bottom line - you don't want to lose (your land, your life, your children's future)?
    Don't go out to wars against your neighbours. Stop your terrorist activities. Stop investing in terror tunnels and start investing in civilian infrastructure.

    I seriously can't understand this arguing and rehashing over and over again - about land rights and what happened before 1948, and what happened after 1967, and who did what to whom and all that. Palestinian supporters will always see Israel as the evil one and Israeli supporters will see the Palestinians as the evil ones. What's the point?
    We live in the now. If we keep rehashing history just to make us feel we have a better moral ground to stand on there will be no change in the ME.

    People should start concentrating on the future.
    The fact is - Israel is there to stay.
    If the Palestinians keep up their armed struggle and continue with terrorism and educating their children to hate Israelis and keep on hoping that one day they will drive the Jews out of Israel to return to the home they lost in the war 70 years ago, there is only one future for the Palestinians, and it is very very bleak and the Palestinians will probably have a lot more than they do today to complain about. I just doubt if at that point there would be anybody left listening to their plight.


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    #731
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,080 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Oh, I'm familiar(.........)accepting it.

    What do you think Israel should do regarding the settlments in the West Bank?
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Considering the fact that the Palestinians (in 1948 they were just Arabs and had no national identity)

    The national identity dates to the early 1900s.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote:
    Considering the fact that many of the Arabs who were then in Israel were Arabs brought by the Ottomans as cheap labor, I don't really understand what better claim you think the Palestinians have to the land.

    Untrue, as is the version where they were brought in as cheap labour for jewish farms.

    sarcasticus magnificus wrote:
    I seriously can't understand this arguing and rehashing over and over again - about land rights and what happened before 1948, and what happened after 1967,

    Then why are you bringing it up?


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    #732
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Considering the fact that the Palestinians (in 1948 they were just Arabs and had no national identity) and the surrounding Arab countries were the ones to attack the newly formed state of Israel in 1948, I do think it might be time for them to learn from history and from their mistakes and abandon their holy war against Israel to concentrate on making their lives better.

    Modern nation state are a relatively new idea. BTW, the same reasoning your using was used by European colonists to justify the theft of Native American land. So your not in good company, as what your saying was often used by colonial states as an excuse for genocide, ethnic cleansing and land theft.

    A lack of national identity if irrelevant to peoples right to self determination, and your also wrong in that they had no identity as a people.

    Also, Israel started expelling Palestinians before any Arab state attacked them. Ignoring that simple fact is incredibly telling.

    Also, your claim of a holy war in nonsense. Israel is founded on stuff written in the old testament. Palestinians movements were largely secular until the emergence of Hamas (in the 80s if I remember right), which btw was encouraged by Israel.

    Also, I taught you didn't want to talk about history, and yet here you are doing exactly that, and being deliberately inaccurate to boot.

    The simple fact is that the issue is what is being done right now. Protesters being murdered complete indicriminately.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Israel's land claim is not just biblical. There was always a Jewish presence in Israel, and up to 1948 the Jews were hecticly buying lands from the Ottomans, the British and the Arabs.

    Yes, it is a purely biblical claim. Buying land doesn't give you a right to set up a state against the wishes of the rest of the inhabitants, and secondly all the people regardless of Religion have lived there for generations. There all genetically related.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Considering the fact that many of the Arabs who were then in Israel were Arabs brought by the Ottomans as cheap labor, I don't really understand what better claim you think the Palestinians have to the land.

    An old racist Zionist lie. Honestly, you will have to do better, than repeat racist Zionist nonsense.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Let's not forget also, that the land the Palestinians "lost" was not stolen.
    Israel was divided between the Jews and Arabs in 1948. Two new states where none existed before. The Arabs did not accept the partition of the land and went to war against the Jews with the help and support of the surrounding Arab countries.

    The UN resolution was a non-binding general assembly resolution. No states were created by that resolution. Also, other states, have no right to give up someone else land to recently arrived colonists.

    Also, Israel it should be noted started expelling Palestinians before any Arab states attacked them, and then immediately expanded outside the proposes Jewish state borders. Again, you ignore facts you don't like.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    To their shock and dismay - they lost even though they were certain they were going to push all the Jews into the mediterranean sea, and haven't stopped whining about it since.

    You do realize that some Palestinians were literally driven into the sea by Israel, and escaped to Gaza (the IDF are murdering the descendants the last few weeks). Its interesting how you choose to ignore the pre-planned expulsion of Palestinians, know as plan Dalet. Look it up and stop ignoring it.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Bottom line - you don't want to lose (your land, your life, your children's future)?
    Don't go out to wars against your neighbours. Stop your terrorist activities.
    Stop investing in terror tunnels and start investing in civilian infrastructure.

    Your taking the piss. Israel aren't Palestinians neighbors. There is no Palestinian state. There is no border. They do no control there own lives. Also, there have been no attacks from Gaza by Hamas recently, and yet the IDF murdered protesters, and in the West Bank, where the PA work with Israel, they get more settlements. Why do you ignore the fact?
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I seriously can't understand this arguing and rehashing over and over again - about land rights and what happened before 1948, and what happened after 1967, and who did what to whom and all that. Palestinian supporters will always see Israel as the evil one and Israeli supporters will see the Palestinians as the evil ones. What's the point?

    We live in the now. If we keep rehashing history just to make us feel we have a better moral ground to stand on there will be no change in the ME.

    You need to ask yourself the question, not me. I am not bringing up the past, you did in reply to my post, which was talking about the present, and with an aside to absurdity of someone telling Palestinians to get over the past, when the other sides claims are biblical in nature.

    I didn't bring up the past at in my post, I pointed out that what is happening to the Palestinians is ongoing, and pointing out Israels claims are biblical.

    Sorry, but your attempts to gas light me, aren't going to work. You are the one obsessed about the past not me. I am just pointing out the bull**** you posted in reply to me.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    People should start concentrating on the future.

    Not people, you need to do that, as your went off on an inaccurate historical rant. The level of hypocrisy is stunning, it really is. Its takes a special level of delusional, to post several paragraphs on the history of the conflict, in the reply to a post that made no mention of it, and then accuse me and others of being obsessed with the past.

    You want people to stop discussing the past, then stop bringing it up. FFS, some bull**** coming out of you.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    The fact is - Israel is there to stay.

    No one said otherwise. Stop the bull****.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    If the Palestinians keep up their armed struggle and continue with terrorism

    Protests aren't an armed struggle or terrorism, and yet the IDF murder Palestinians in anyways and settlements continue to grow.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    and educating their children to hate Israelis

    Both sides have that problem, something you will ignore. Still, I think the dead protesters aren't exactly endearing Israel to Palestinians, nor are the lies from Israel either, or the settlement expansions, and the general abuse that happens to an occupied and dispossessed people. Sure, none of that matters to your of course, as your probably pretend it doesn't exist.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    and keep on hoping that one day they will drive the Jews out of Israel to return to the home they lost in the war 70 years ago, there is only one future for the Palestinians, and it is very very bleak and the Palestinians will probably have a lot more than they do today to complain about. I just doubt if at that point there would be anybody left listening to their plight.

    You are naive as hell if you think any conflict in the bloody holy land will not have lots of people paying attention.


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    #733
    cfuserkildare
    Registered Users Posts: 3,580 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Does no-one else think it a little odd that throughout history, everywhere they have gone, they have been chased out?
    Every-country they have attempted to establish a foothold they have branded as Anti-Semitic.
    Also, Historical claims are not entirely true. As they Did Not originally come from Israel, but further east, and Settled in Israel.
    Even the claims about being enslaved in Egypt have proven to be Untrue.


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    #734
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    cfuserkildare wrote: »
    Does no-one else think it a little odd that throughout history, everywhere they have gone, they have been chased out?
    Every-country they have attempted to establish a foothold they have branded as Anti-Semitic.

    Come on now........

    Any minority group back then was generally treated like ****. Jewish people (and the Roma) got the worst of it in Europe, due to various reasons, a lot of which was propaganda such as the blood libel, and claims they killed Jesus etc. Hell during the reconquista and Spanish inquisition, Jewish people were actually treated worse than the Moors and there descendants.

    The simple fact is that in Europe a lot of people were Anti-semites in the past.


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    #735
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    cfuserkildare wrote: »
    Does no-one else think it a little odd that throughout history, everywhere they have gone, they have been chased out?
    Every-country they have attempted to establish a foothold they have branded as Anti-Semitic.
    Also, Historical claims are not entirely true. As they Did Not originally come from Israel, but further east, and Settled in Israel.
    Even the claims about being enslaved in Egypt have proven to be Untrue.

    Not everywhere. Strangly for centuries there were large jewish communities across the middle east. Christians however have been dicks to jews for centuries. Loads of lies about blood sacrifices and then later on about global conspiracies. When it came to persecuting the jews for no reason, christians were definitely the best at it. Not that it's something to be proud of.
    It's generally changed though. And that's to do with politics. In the middle east what the israeli state has done is blamed on jews globally. And that's not fair. Like any religion or cultural group there's a huge amount of variation in both belief and politics.


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    #736
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,654 ✭✭✭storker


    cfuserkildare wrote: »
    Does no-one else think it a little odd that throughout history, everywhere they have gone, they have been chased out?

    I'll bite, let's hear your non-anti-semitic explanation. I've never been tempted to report a post before but this nugget got me close. It's just a rewording of the old all-that-persecution-they-must-be-doing-something-to-deserve-it innuendo.


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    #737
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,654 ✭✭✭storker


    wes wrote: »
    Come on now........

    The simple fact is that in Europe a lot of people were Anti-semites in the past.

    Indeed. The Nazis didn't invent anti-semitism, they just tapped into a rich vein that was already there. Not much has changed, it seems.


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    #738
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    storker wrote: »
    Indeed. The Nazis didn't invent anti-semitism, they just tapped into a rich vein that was already there. Not much has changed, it seems.

    I'm kinda amazed it still exists. Nearly everyone thinks that all the crap about jews is exactly that, crap. Yet there are some people who still cling onto anti semitism.

    I'm also kinda amazed that there were a few people in the UK labour party that are anti semites. We're kinda used to tories coming out with random racism but labour are supposed to be progressive and against that.


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    #739
    sarcasticus magnificus
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭sarcasticus magnificus


    Odhinn wrote: »
    What do you think Israel should do regarding the settlments in the West Bank?

    I think any settlement on Palestinian land should be removed.
    Odhinn wrote: »
    The national identity dates to the early 1900s.

    I have to disagree with you on that, never seen any source to confirm that.

    Odhinn wrote: »
    Untrue, as is the version where they were brought in as cheap labour for jewish farms.

    Unfortunately, there is still documentation that proves exactly that.

    Odhinn wrote: »
    Then why are you bringing it up?
    I try not to fall into that trap, but it's hard sometimes when you see all the blatant lies, inaccuracies and falsehood in the thread.
    I mean, come on, stuff like claiming that the Israelis were the aggressors in 1948? Seriously?


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    #740
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I try not to fall into that trap, but it's hard sometimes when you see all the blatant lies, inaccuracies and falsehood in the thread.

    Sure, and most of them are coming from what you posted. Also, again you replied to people like myself who made no mention of history until you brought it up. You need to practice what you preach.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I mean, come on, stuff like claiming that the Israelis were the aggressors in 1948? Seriously?

    The Iron Wall essay was written in 1923. Go search for it online and have a good read.

    Here is an excerp:
    "Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach."

    That is 1923, before Israel even existed. Its no different than modern Israeli leaders.

    Then there is Plan Dalet, you can read more in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Illan Pappe.

    Israel is a colonial settler state whose claims are based on an extremists interpretation of the old testament. It no different than any other colonial settler state at the end of the day. Claiming that the people who were driven from there homes are the aggressors, is the same racist nonsense colonial apologists have used through out history. We saw the same kind of nonsense used against the native of the America's when there land was colonized by Europeans.


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    #741
    sarcasticus magnificus
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭sarcasticus magnificus


    wes wrote: »
    A lack of national identity if irrelevant to peoples right to self determination, and your also wrong in that they had no identity as a people.

    Also, Israel started expelling Palestinians before any Arab state attacked them. Ignoring that simple fact is incredibly telling.

    Also, your claim of a holy war in nonsense. Israel is founded on stuff written in the old testament. Palestinians movements were largely secular until the emergence of Hamas (in the 80s if I remember right), which btw was encouraged by Israel.

    Also, I taught you didn't want to talk about history, and yet here you are doing exactly that, and being deliberately inaccurate to boot.

    The stuff in bold - sorry, nonsense.
    wes wrote: »
    Yes, it is a purely biblical claim. Buying land doesn't give you a right to set up a state against the wishes of the rest of the inhabitants, and secondly all the people regardless of Religion have lived there for generations. There all genetically related.

    So according to you, there shouldn't be a Palestinian state either because it goes against the wishes of the rest of the inhabitants (the Jews, Christians, etc)?
    wes wrote: »
    The UN resolution was a non-binding general assembly resolution. No states were created by that resolution. Also, other states, have no right to give up someone else land to recently arrived colonists.

    Funny how you never think it's a good excuse when people commenting on various UN resolutions against Israel say they are not binding, yet here you are using the same excuse... I guess the UN really is irrelevant.
    wes wrote: »
    Also, Israel it should be noted started expelling Palestinians before any Arab states attacked them, and then immediately expanded outside the proposes Jewish state borders. Again, you ignore facts you don't like.

    Wow, nice attempt at rewriting history.

    wes wrote: »
    You do realize that some Palestinians were literally driven into the sea by Israel, and escaped to Gaza

    Sure, and the sun is blue and the moon is made of cheese.
    wes wrote: »
    Your taking the piss. Israel aren't Palestinians neighbors. There is no Palestinian state. There is no border. They do no control there own lives. Also, there have been no attacks from Gaza by Hamas recently, and yet the IDF murdered protesters, and in the West Bank, where the PA work with Israel, they get more settlements. Why do you ignore the fact?
    Israel and Gaza aren't neighbours? When they go to work in Israel, do they pass through another country on the way? When they fire rockets do they go through the air space of another country?

    wes wrote: »
    Not people, you need to do that, as your went off on an inaccurate historical rant. The level of hypocrisy is stunning, it really is. Its takes a special level of delusional, to post several paragraphs on the history of the conflict, in the reply to a post that made no mention of it, and then accuse me and others of being obsessed with the past.

    You want people to stop discussing the past, then stop bringing it up. FFS, some bull**** coming out of you.
    Wasn't it you the one claiming the Israelis attacked the Arabs in 1948?
    You've made some other claims (some addressed in this very reply) which are ridiculous and basically gave me no choice but to get into it as response to the nonsense you write.
    wes wrote: »
    Protests aren't an armed struggle or terrorism, and yet the IDF murder Palestinians in anyways and settlements continue to grow.
    What went on in Gaza was not a protest. If they wanted to protest they could do it in the center of Gaza, without trying to breach security fences or planting explosive devices. No one would have died then, but that's not what Hamas wanted was it?
    Settlements continue to grow because it's a natural process.
    As far as Gaza is concerned - there are no settlements in Gaza remember? The Israelis left Gaza and uprooted thousands of settlers in the process.
    wes wrote: »
    You are naive as hell if you think any conflict in the bloody holy land will not have lots of people paying attention.
    I actually miss the days I was naive...
    Unfortunately, you can't buy food with attention, so just as it happened in this case of the glorious Hamas riot that achieved nothing but more dead Palestinians - the only ones to suffer will be the Palestinian people


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    #742
    sarcasticus magnificus
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭sarcasticus magnificus


    wes wrote: »
    The Iron Wall essay was written in 1923. Go search for it online and have a good read.

    Here is an excerp:


    That is 1923, before Israel even existed. Its no different than modern Israeli leaders.

    So now you are quoting Jabotinski? A Zionist? wow.
    I suggest you read the whole thing carefully... Jabotinski was concerned because he knew even then that the Arabs in Israel will become violent towards the Jews.
    wes wrote: »
    Then there is Plan Dalet, you can read more in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Illan Pappe.

    Israel is a colonial settler state whose claims are based on an extremists interpretation of the old testament. It no different than any other colonial settler state at the end of the day. Claiming that the people who were driven from there homes are the aggressors, is the same racist nonsense colonial apologists have used through out history. We saw the same kind of nonsense used against the native of the America's when there land was colonized by Europeans.
    If I compare plan Dalet to the Palestinian plan to push the Jews to the sea, then plan Dalet seems like the vegetarian option.
    In any case, I'll just share a quote in regards to Plan Dalet:
    "The intent of Plan Dalet is subject to much controversy, with historians on one side asserting that it was entirely defensive, while other historians assert that the plan aimed at the expulsion"


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    #743
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    The stuff in bold - sorry, nonsense.

    Prove it then. Everything you have said, is the same old disproven Zionist crap.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    So according to you, there shouldn't be a Palestinian state either because it goes against the wishes of the rest of the inhabitants (the Jews, Christians, etc)?

    There are Palestinian Christians as well :rolleyes:. FFS, you are confusing Religion with an Ethno-national group. If you can't get basic stuff right, why should anyone take your nonsense serious.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Funny how you never think it's a good excuse when people commenting on various UN resolutions against Israel say they are not binding, yet here you are using the same excuse... I guess the UN really is irrelevant.

    Security council resolutions are binding. General assembly resolution are generally non-binding. I explained the difference the first time. Your ignorance on the matter is you business.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Wow, nice attempt at rewriting history.

    Sure, and the sun is blue and the moon is made of cheese.

    Prove it then. Your posts basically amount, your right because you say so.

    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Israel and Gaza aren't neighbours? When they go to work in Israel, do they pass through another country on the way? When they fire rockets do they go through the air space of another country?

    Gaza is a prison camp, its not another country as there is no Palestinian state. Again, you inability to get basic facts correct is astonishing. Also, when was the last time rockets were fired? Most recently the IDF have massacred protesters. Violence right now is entirely one way.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Wasn't it you the one claiming the Israelis attacked the Arabs in 1948?

    No I didn't actually, I said Israel started expelling Palestinians before the Arab state attacked. Learn to read and stop the straw man bull****.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    You've made some other claims (some addressed in this very reply) which are ridiculous and basically gave me no choice but to get into it as response to the nonsense you write.

    You have addressed nothing actually. Again, your post amount, to you are right because you say, and you get basic facts wrong, like claiming Gaza is in another country in the very post I am replying to.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    What went on in Gaza was not a protest.

    According to apologists to the murder of civilians like yourself, but everyone else who isn't an apologist for murder it was.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    If they wanted to protest they could do it in the center of Gaza, without trying to breach security fences or planting explosive devices.

    Another nasty lie to defend murder. No one tried to plant explosives. Disgusting lies to defend murder.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    No one would have died then, but that's not what Hamas wanted was it?

    No one would have died if the IDF didn't murder them. Why do you refuse to condemn the murder of protesters? Why do you support murder of Palestinians protesters?
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Settlements continue to grow because it's a natural process.

    Yeah, building just grow on there own :D. Your coming out with some grade A nonsense, I will say that for you.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    As far as Gaza is concerned - there are no settlements in Gaza remember? The Israelis left Gaza and uprooted thousands of settlers in the process.

    Yeah, and turned it into a prison camp, and in the West Bank they continue to expand, all the while the PA work with Israel. Why hasn't Israel stopped settlement expansion then? Its not as you claim a natural process. It is deliberate policy to expand them, and its amazing that you have chosen to present such a bald face lie.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I actually miss the days I was naive...

    No need for that, plenty of evidence that you still are.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Unfortunately, you can't buy food with attention, so just as it happened in this case of the glorious Hamas riot that achieved nothing but more dead Palestinians - the only ones to suffer will be the Palestinian people

    Blaming anyone but the IDF, who actually murdered Palestinians. Its amazing how you choose to deny reality.


  • Options
    #744
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    So now you are quoting Jabotinski? A Zionist? wow.
    I suggest you read the whole thing carefully... Jabotinski was concerned because he knew even then that the Arabs in Israel will become violent towards the Jews.

    Yeah, because Zionists wanted to colonize there land and the date was 1923, before any Arabs invaded, Zionists were planning for violence on there end from the start. The level of denial you present is amazing. Its truly a sight to behold, how you will excuse colonialism.

    BTW, he was a Russian, Jabotinsky (Iron wall was written in Russian btw). What right did a Russian have to Palestinian land, exactly? Care to explain?
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    If I compare plan Dalet to the Palestinian plan to push the Jews to the sea, then plan Dalet seems like the vegetarian option.

    Well, one actually happened were Palestinians actually were driven into the sea by European colonists, the other didn't happen.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    In any case, I'll just share a quote in regards to Plan Dalet:
    "The intent of Plan Dalet is subject to much controversy, with historians on one side asserting that it was entirely defensive, while other historians assert that the plan aimed at the expulsion"

    Yeah, I read wikipedia too, hence why I suggested a book on the matter. Unlike yourself, I don't get my information from wikipedia.

    So we are back to you being unable to prove a single claim you have made and resorting to wikipedia, who you don't even have the decency to link to.


  • Options
    #745
    sarcasticus magnificus
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭sarcasticus magnificus


    wes wrote: »
    Prove it then. Everything you have said, is the same old disproven Zionist crap.
    The burden of proof is on you - you made the claim.


    wes wrote: »
    There are Palestinian Christians as well :rolleyes:. FFS, you are confusing Religion with an Ethno-national group. If you can't get basic stuff right, why should anyone take your nonsense serious.
    Nice evasion of the question, let me make it simpler for you:
    Should there be no Palestinian state because the Jews object?

    wes wrote: »
    Security council resolutions are binding. General assembly resolution are generally non-binding. I explained the difference the first time. Your ignorance on the matter is you business.
    You're not really responding to what I said, just trying to insult me?
    I said that it's funny you use the excuse that general assembly resolutions are not binding, while at the same time you get angry at posters who say the same in regards to general assembly resolutions made against Israel.

    wes wrote: »
    Gaza is a prison camp, its not another country as there is no Palestinian state. Again, you inability to get basic facts correct is astonishing. Also, when was the last time rockets were fired? Most recently the IDF have massacred protesters. Violence right now is entirely one way.
    Gaza is a self governing Palestinian territory. I never said it was a country.
    The last time I know of that Hamas fired rockets at Israel was 25th of March 2018 which is less than two months ago.
    The IDF did not massacre protesters, they surgically fired on Hamas terrorists using demonstrating Palestinian civilians as human shields and propaganda tools.
    wes wrote: »
    No I didn't actually, I said Israel started expelling Palestinians before the Arab state attacked. Learn to read and stop the straw man bull****.
    Jeyzus, I don't know how to respond anymore...
    "No I didn't say it. Now I'll say it again"... nice work.
    You know what, I'll bite. You seem so sure of yourself, maybe I'm wrong here - please supply links to show how Israel expelled Palestinians before the Arab states attacked.

    wes wrote: »
    Another nasty lie to defend murder. No one tried to plant explosives. Disgusting lies to defend murder.
    Well, the Israelis said over 100 explosive devices were captured or neutralized.
    Sicen I doubt Hamas operatives would storm into Israel carrying flowers and chocolates, it also makes sense.
    I know you don't believe anything the Israelis say and that's your prerogative.
    But in that case, please enlighten me - what exactly do you think the Hamas operatives would have done if they managed to breach the fence? Go back home? Sing kumbaya while holding hands?

    wes wrote: »
    No one would have died if the IDF didn't murder them. Why do you refuse to condemn the murder of protesters? Why do you support murder of Palestinians protesters?
    Simple - they were not protesters. Even Hamas admits 50 of the 62 dead were Hamas operatives, 3 or so more were from Islamic Jihad, so how many civilians were really killed?
    Do you know what "suicide by cop" is? That's exactly what Hamas sent civilians to do "suicide by IDF". Miraculously, the IDF were able to avoid large amounts of civilian casualties and respect to them for it.

    wes wrote: »
    Yeah, building just grow on there own :D. Your coming out with some grade A nonsense, I will say that for you.
    What can I do? facts speak for themselves.
    Settlements grow due to births, it's natural.
    I haven't heard of any land grabbings in recent years that forced hundreds and thousands of Palestinians of their land, so maybe you can enlighten me in this regard also - when was the last time the Israelis "ethnically cleansed" anything?

    wes wrote: »
    Yeah, and turned it into a prison camp, and in the West Bank they continue to expand, all the while the PA work with Israel. Why hasn't Israel stopped settlement expansion then? Its not as you claim a natural process. It is deliberate policy to expand them, and its amazing that you have chosen to present such a bald face lie.

    Why would Israel stop settlement expansion as long as they don't need to take more lands from the Palestinians?
    Most towns, villages, cities and areas expand with time because more people are born all the time. it's a natural process.
    Now, if you came to me and told me about how the cruel Israelis kicked a thousand Palestinians from their little village and gave it over to Israeli settlers... That would be a different story, but I seriously doubt you'll be able to produce one.

    wes wrote: »
    Blaming anyone but the IDF, who actually murdered Palestinians. Its amazing how you choose to deny reality.
    The IDF did what any army in the world would have done - it kept the people it was charged with protecting safe.
    The ones to blame for the deaths are Hamas and only Hamas. Cold hearted bastards sent women, children & invalids to die for propaganda.


  • Options
    #746
    sarcasticus magnificus
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭sarcasticus magnificus


    wes wrote: »
    Yeah, because Zionists wanted to colonize there land and the date was 1923, before any Arabs invaded, Zionists were planning for violence on there end from the start. The level of denial you present is amazing. Its truly a sight to behold, how you will excuse colonialism.

    BTW, he was a Russian, Jabotinsky (Iron wall was written in Russian btw). What right did a Russian have to Palestinian land, exactly? Care to explain?
    Simple. As much as you hate it, the Jews have a historical link to Israel.
    Also, as much as you hate it, there were always Jews in Israel and they had land also.
    wes wrote: »
    Well, one actually happened were Palestinians actually were driven into the sea by European colonists, the other didn't happen.
    None of them happened. Israel is not clean from Arabs - there are many Israeli Arabs and there always were (since 1948), and the Palestinian plan was put into motion but unfortunately for them they lost the war, which is the only reason why their plan was not completed. Not that they haven't tried to kill Jews again and again since...

    wes wrote: »
    Yeah, I read wikipedia too, hence why I suggested a book on the matter. Unlike yourself, I don't get my information from wikipedia.

    So we are back to you being unable to prove a single claim you have made and resorting to wikipedia, who you don't even have the decency to link to.
    I know you read Wikipedia, I can tell from your arguments, so I used Wikipedia as a source (to make it easier for you to corroborate what I said).
    Why would I link to Wikipedia though? Anyone can use google and check both your claims and mine, and that's exactly what I'd prefer - that people have their own investigation into the issues at hand and make up their own mind instead of being spoon fed by people with agendas.


  • Options
    #747
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    Grayson wrote: »
    Bollox. Just plain bollox.

    take me for example. I recognize the right of israel to exist. However i don't recognize the right of israel to occupy and oppress millions of people. Nearly every post I make I have to make clear that I think hamas too are cnuts. Simply because if you recognise that the situation is complex and there are groups on both sides who are murderous cnuts apparently you hate jews.

    BTW, if you wonder why I never complained about the jordanian occupation of the westbank, it ended 50 years ago. I wasn't even alive at that point.

    So time is a limiting factor?

    Tell that to the vast majority of the palestinian population who weren't even alive at the time.

    They are a "nation" of urban dwellers, seeking to go back to farming land that they at this point have no experience with which to farm.

    Take a look at Zimbabwe for one reason why thats a ****ty idea.

    Good intentions, etc.


  • Options
    #748
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    Grayson wrote: »
    We're kinda used to tories coming out with random racism but labour are supposed to be progressive and against that.

    Ehhhhh....Yeah, they're meant to.

    Problem it's usually the stereotypical lower classes that support labour, and that class tends to be a little more on the racist/bigoted side. No different to the culchies in Ireland really.

    Labour put it on a mug:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/labours-anti-immigrant-mug-worst-part-it-isnt-gaffe

    Doesn't seem particularly racist to me, but apparently the internet thinks otherwise.


  • Options
    #749
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    The burden of proof is on you - you made the claim.

    You are taking the piss. You made the claim, and provided no proof. I can dismiss what you said, as you provided no proof at all.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Nice evasion of the question, let me make it simpler for you:

    No evasion at all. Your question was nonsensical and I pointed out why. If you can't get basic facts straight, then everything you say is highly suspect.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Should there be no Palestinian state because the Jews object?

    Do you mean Israeli's? Conflating Jews with Israeli's is Anti-semtic, not all Jews are Israeli's nor do they support everything Israel does.

    They (Israeli government) do object and the settlements are to make sure there never is a Palestinian state, in contravention of binding United Nations security council resolution, and in contravention the Geneva convention there is settler colonial enterprise.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    You're not really responding to what I said, just trying to insult me?

    I responded, you not liking the response is neither here not there.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I said that it's funny you use the excuse that general assembly resolutions are not binding, while at the same time you get angry at posters who say the same in regards to general assembly resolutions made against Israel.

    When did I get angry at posters in regards to general assembly resolutions? What post was that? Care to provide a quote, as I have no idea what you are on about.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Gaza is a self governing Palestinian territory. I never said it was a country.

    Except you did:
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    When they go to work in Israel, do they pass through another country on the way? When they fire rockets do they go through the air space of another country?

    "Pass through another country", if Gaza is not a country, then you wouldn't have said that now would you?
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    The last time I know of that Hamas fired rockets at Israel was 25th of March 2018 which is less than two months ago.

    So no rocket fire, during the protest confirmed.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    The IDF did not massacre protesters, they surgically fired on Hamas terrorists using demonstrating Palestinian civilians as human shields and propaganda tools.

    Come one, now they fired on the media, doctors, at a man in a wheel chair, and there are 1000's of injuries. Also, none of those killed were armed, and I expect you to prove that those killed were engaged in terrorism, as even if they were members of Hamas, them being unarmed make it cold blooded murder, whether you like it or not.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Jeyzus, I don't know how to respond anymore...
    "No I didn't say it. Now I'll say it again"... nice work.
    You know what, I'll bite. You seem so sure of yourself, maybe I'm wrong here - please supply links to show how Israel expelled Palestinians before the Arab states attacked.

    I already provided a link to a book. You have provided exactly 0 links for any of your claims. Again, if you have no proof, I can dismiss without proof.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Well, the Israelis said over 100 explosive devices were captured or neutralized.
    Sicen I doubt Hamas operatives would storm into Israel carrying flowers and chocolates, it also makes sense.

    So no proof then, because what the IDF says is worthless.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I know you don't believe anything the Israelis say and that's your prerogative.

    The IDF lie all the time. There is 0 evidence of explosives from a trust worthy source, and you don't even bother to link the explosive claims either.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    But in that case, please enlighten me - what exactly do you think the Hamas operatives would have done if they managed to breach the fence? Go back home? Sing kumbaya while holding hands?

    What I do know is that the IDF murder Palestinian protesters, who were no where near the fence. Care to explain that?
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Simple - they were not protesters. Even Hamas admits 50 of the 62 dead were Hamas operatives, 3 or so more were from Islamic Jihad, so how many civilians were really killed?

    Hamas are not a trust worthy source btw, and they were all unarmed. Even if they were members, its still murder, as they were no threat. Would you be ok with off duty members of the IDF being murdered by a Palestinian militant?
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Do you know what "suicide by cop" is? That's exactly what Hamas sent civilians to do "suicide by IDF". Miraculously, the IDF were able to avoid large amounts of civilian casualties and respect to them for it.

    Prove that was the intent then. You make outrageous claims with 0 proof.

    Also, there is over 100 dead and over a 1000 injured, ffs what your saying is a special kind of vile apologetic.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    What can I do? facts speak for themselves.

    They would if you presented any.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Settlements grow due to births, it's natural.

    I am talking about buildings, they aren't, those are built. Nice of you to ignore that.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I haven't heard of any land grabbings in recent years that forced hundreds and thousands of Palestinians of their land, so maybe you can enlighten me in this regard also - when was the last time the Israelis "ethnically cleansed" anything?

    Palestinian homes to be demolished for settlments road


    If you follow the conflict you would know about that. Its amazing how little you know about this topic. It really is.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Why would Israel stop settlement expansion as long as they don't need to take more lands from the Palestinians?
    Most towns, villages, cities and areas expand with time because more people are born all the time. it's a natural process.

    Destroying peoples homes is not a natural process. Stop this nonsense already. Israel can easily stop settlement expansion and house there people in Israel, they choose not to.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Now, if you came to me and told me about how the cruel Israelis kicked a thousand Palestinians from their little village and gave it over to Israeli settlers... That would be a different story, but I seriously doubt you'll be able to produce one.

    I did so above already. Your ignorance is astonishing. It really is a sight to behold.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    The IDF did what any army in the world would have done - it kept the people it was charged with protecting safe.
    The ones to blame for the deaths are Hamas and only Hamas. Cold hearted bastards sent women, children & invalids to die for propaganda.

    The IDF are the ones who murdered them, and you excuse it. Your posts are disgusting propaganda and apologetics, nothing more. Your failure to condemn the IDF, tells us all we need to know about you.


  • Options
    #750
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,080 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I think any settlement on Palestinian land should be removed.

    You mean outside the 1967 borders, I trust?
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I have to disagree with you on that, never seen any source to confirm that.

    Then I suggest you do some research. Benny Morris has written on the subject, afaik.

    It's odd how zionism is somehow legitamate, yet Palestinian national identity isn't, despite the few decades age between them.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Unfortunately, there is still documentation that proves exactly that.

    It's nonsense. Thankfully detailed records were made at the time.

    http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story573.html


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  • Options
    #751
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Simple. As much as you hate it, the Jews have a historical link to Israel.
    Also, as much as you hate it, there were always Jews in Israel and they had land also.

    So historical links based on Religion, gives a Russian the right to plan violence against people living in Palestine and steal there land. This ladies and gentlemen is no different than the crap ISIS spouts. Sorry, but historical links are not valid land claims. Also, you should be honest and admit its biblical links.

    So basically he had no right and was a Russian proposing colonization of someone else land.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    None of them happened. Israel is not clean from Arabs - there are many Israeli Arabs and there always were (since 1948), and the Palestinian plan was put into motion but unfortunately for them they lost the war, which is the only reason why their plan was not completed. Not that they haven't tried to kill Jews again and again since...

    What Palestinian plan? Care to name it? Any proof to your claims.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    I know you read Wikipedia, I can tell from your arguments, so I used Wikipedia as a source (to make it easier for you to corroborate what I said).

    You have provide 0 sources, for any of you claims so far, and demand them from me, that is a bit rich.
    sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »
    Why would I link to Wikipedia though? Anyone can use google and check both your claims and mine, and that's exactly what I'd prefer - that people have their own investigation into the issues at hand and make up their own mind instead of being spoon fed by people with agendas.

    All I am hearing is that you know you can't back up a single thing you say, and yet demand it from me. Your clearly taking the piss and nothing more.


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