Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

Odhinn

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

Why would Israel stop settlement expansion as long as they don't need to take more lands from the Palestinians?
Most towns, villages, cities and areas expand with time because more people are born all the time. it's a natural process.
Now, if you came to me and told me about how the cruel Israelis kicked a thousand Palestinians from their little village and gave it over to Israeli settlers... That would be a different story, but I seriously doubt you'll be able to produce one.



.

Any settlement outside israeli borders is an illegal colony, its expansion by default is illicit.

Grayson

CruelCoin wrote: »

So time is a limiting factor?

Tell that to the vast majority of the palestinian population who weren't even alive at the time.

They are a "nation" of urban dwellers, seeking to go back to farming land that they at this point have no experience with which to farm.

Take a look at Zimbabwe for one reason why thats a ****ty idea.

Yes time is a limiting factor. People aren't campaigning for Jordan to leave the west bank because it was 50 years ago. It's the same reason people aren't complaining about the introduction of the spinning loom anymore. It's long ago and people are more concerned with the military that are currently occupying the west bank.

And you're seriously suggesting that there aren't arab farmers and that's why israel should control the westbank?

skepticalme

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Palestinians need to stop burning tires on Israel`s border. They need to start vegetable plots, they need to clean up their rubbish and take an active interest in nature and in their environment.

https://english.palinfo.com/news/2018/5/21/israel-forces-launch-limited-incursion-attack-fishermen-in-gaza

What incentive have Palastinians in Gaza to rebuild even if Israel allowed building materials into Gaza.
They know Israeli airforce will be along to 'mow the lawn' sooner or later.


The IDF have struggled to find any evidence to validate their murders.
All they have is stone throwing and about 8 people pulling some barbed wire.
65 dead now as more die from their wounds.


As for those Palastinians that cooperate with Israel, this is what they get for protesting peacefully against those murders.

http://truthngo.org/home/israeli-police-break-activists-leg-while-in-custody/

Odhinn

There's a few reasons why there are less farmers allright
https://www.btselem.org/video/20180509_settler_violence_during_plowing_season_serves_israel#full

sarcasticus magnificus

Odhinn wrote: »

You mean outside the 1967 borders, I trust?

I mean settlements within Palestinian population centers in the west bank.
For actual peace with the Palestinians, any settlement both sides agree on, regardless where it is. Land can be traded for territorial continuity reasons, security reasons, any valid reason both sides agree on.

Odhinn wrote: »

Then I suggest you do some research. Benny Morris has written on the subject, afaik.

Have to eat my hat on this one. Dug a bit more and could see that your'e right. When I'm wrong I'm wrong.

Odhinn wrote: »

It's odd how zionism is somehow legitamate, yet Palestinian national identity isn't, despite the few decades age between them.

I think the Palestinians have the same right to self determination as any other group of people in any other country.

Odhinn wrote: »

It's nonsense. Thankfully detailed records were made at the time.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story573.html

Or not.

"By the early 1800s the Arab population in Palestine was very little (just 246,000) it was in the late 1800s and early 1900s that most Muslim Colonists settled in Palestine because of incentives by the Ottoman Government to resettle displaced Muslim populations because of events such as the Austro-Hungarian Occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Crimean War and World War 1. Those events created a great quantity of Muslim Refugees that were resettled somewhere else in the Ottoman Empire... In 1878 an Ottoman law granted lands in Palestine to Muslim colonists. Muslim colonists from Crimea and the Balkans settled in Anatolia, Armenia, Lebanon, Syria and Palestine."

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4611/muslim-colonists

sarcasticus magnificus

Odhinn wrote: »

Any settlement outside israeli borders is an illegal colony, its expansion by default is illicit.

What Israeli borders? 67? 48?

Odhinn

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

I mean settlements within Palestinian population centers in the west bank.
For actual peace with the Palestinians, any settlement both sides agree on, regardless where it is. Land can be traded for territorial continuity reasons, security reasons, any valid reason both sides agree on.

....but as things stand none exist by consent or any final agreement, therefore
all are essentially legitmate

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

Or not.

Bat Ye'or continues:

"By the early 1800s the Arab p(............), Syria and Palestine."

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4611/muslim-colonists

Apart from the DNA evidence that shows the close relationship between palestinians and Jews. There is a difference between what you want to believe and what is -
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots-1.5411201

"Bat Yeor" is not an academic, and not writing under their own name. She is, however, popular amongst the right wing in the US and likudniks in Israel. Joan peters is another polemicist who trots out much the same thing.

"As all the research by historians and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. "
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1986/01/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/

1967 borders.

Subcomandante Marcos

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

What Israeli borders? 67? 48?

Legally, Israeli borders would follow those established in 1948. However, since 1988 the Palestinian authorities have agreed, for the sake of reaching a peace deal, to recognise the 1967 armistice lines as the defacto border between the two states, with the acknowledgement that's some minor landswaps would need to happen to make the border enforceable. These land swaps do not include transfering 60% of the westbank to Israel in exchange for some unusable land in the Negev, rendering the westbank into three unconnected Bantustans with no water sources or productive agricultural lands.

The only side who have ever made concessions on the border, in all talks between the two sides, has been the Palestinians.

wes

Odhinn wrote: »

"Bat Yeor" is not an academic,.

She also came up with the racist Eurabia nonsense. She is a full on far right racist.

sarcasticus magnificus

Odhinn wrote: »

....but as things stand none exist by consent or any final agreement, therefore
all are essentially legitmate

You probably meant illegitimate...
In my opinion the Israelis will have to say goodbye to most of their settlements eventually, but you'll need a real peace process to get that done.

Odhinn wrote: »

Apart from the DNA evidence that shows the close relationship between palestinians and Jews. There is a difference between what you want to believe and what is -
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots-1.5411201

"Bat Yeor" is not an academic, and not writing under their own name. She is, however, popular amongst the right wing in the US and likudniks in Israel. Joan peters is another polemicist who trots out much the same thing.

"As all the research by historians and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. "
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1986/01/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/

1967 borders.

Not quite what the DNA evidence says:
“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots”.
And here we are talking really ancient pre history. If you look far back enough we are all descendants of some black woman in Africa (or Adam & Eve whatever version you prefer). I wish that was enough to make everyone just get along.
And now back to more recent history...
I have no doubt that there are Palestinians who are descendants of Jews who converted to Islam at one stage or another.
However, the immigration of Arabs into Ottoman Palestine can't be denied.
Here's an interesting link explaining common Palestinian family names and how they show the family's origin:

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=47c_1358574333

Odhinn

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

............
However, the immigration of Arabs into Ottoman Palestine can't be denied.
Here's an interesting link explaining common Palestinian family names and how they show the family's origin:

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=47c_1358574333

That seems to be a sporadic attempt to delegitimise Palestinian origins.

Again, the notion that the palestinian population was due to immigration is untrue.

"As all the research by historians and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. Until the 1850s there was no “natural” increase of the population, but this began to change when modern medical treatment was introduced and modern hospitals were established, both by the the Ottoman authorities and by the foreign Christian missionaries. The number of births remained steady but infant mortality decreased. "
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1986/01/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/

For more detail
http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/04/from-time-immeroial-natural-increase-and-the-growth-of-palestines-arab-population-part-4-of-6/

sarcasticus magnificus

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

Sure, and the sun is blue and the moon is made of cheese.

Thousands of Arabs had no choice but to flee from Jaffa and the surrounding areas via the sea in late April 1948. The Irgun/Haganah had cut off land escape routes. Many drowned in the process. Others ended up in Gaza, Egypt and Lebanon.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=t0CsCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=palestinians+driven+into+sea+1948&source=bl&ots=aTGf3g8drK&sig=1Z1J8XaHjAfMZVG1BltZ1iJL4yc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi44YXQw5fbAhWEBsAKHfP2CKk4ChDoAQheMAg#v=onepage&q=palestinians%20driven%20into%20sea%201948&f=false

sarcasticus magnificus

Odhinn wrote: »

That seems to be a sporadic attempt to delegitimise Palestinian origins.

Again, the notion that the palestinian population was due to immigration is untrue.

Yet you can't argue with the data it presents.

Odhinn wrote: »

"As all the research by historians and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. Until the 1850s there was no “natural” increase of the population, but this began to change when modern medical treatment was introduced and modern hospitals were established, both by the the Ottoman authorities and by the foreign Christian missionaries. The number of births remained steady but infant mortality decreased. "
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1986/01/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/

For more detail
http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/04/from-time-immeroial-natural-increase-and-the-growth-of-palestines-arab-population-part-4-of-6/

I'll be honest with you, I've researched this a little more and it seems that any mention of the subject is in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the sites or the persons making the claims seem to either have a bias or have no real authority on the subject. Your links actually show that nicely - a book review and a blog post criticizing the conclusions of the same book.
Some say black and some say white and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
I still maintain that the list of common Palestinian family names and how they indicate from where these families immigrated to the area is a valid point though.

babi-hrse

If you look at a map of Palistine in the 1940s against it now youd say to yourself what how did they all get moved into that while Israel expanded massively
Israel's borders are not defined. They build a wall create an exclusion zone between and then occupy it as well noone seems to be living in the exclusion zone sit there long enough and claim squatters rights and annex someone else's territory then they need to expand their wall to protect their newly occupied zone rinse and repeat.
Their protests were always on the same day. The embassy coincided with the same date intentional or otherwise the palistinians would have been there either way.

sarcasticus magnificus

Deleted User wrote: »

Thousands of Arabs had no choice but to flee from Jaffa and the surrounding areas via the sea in late April 1948. The Irgun/Haganah had cut off land escape routes. Many drowned in the process. Others ended up in Gaza, Egypt and Lebanon.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=t0CsCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=palestinians+driven+into+sea+1948&source=bl&ots=aTGf3g8drK&sig=1Z1J8XaHjAfMZVG1BltZ1iJL4yc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi44YXQw5fbAhWEBsAKHfP2CKk4ChDoAQheMAg#v=onepage&q=palestinians%20driven%20into%20sea%201948&f=false

And who's fault was it that so many Arabs fled in terror leaving all their belongings behind? Why were they so scared of the Jews?
Now your'e gonna flip at how things never change... Screwed yet again by their leaders.
Just one quote (page 173) from many other interesting bits in the following link:
"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe."
(Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948)
https://books.google.ie/books?id=xhfUGgIt53sC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=The+Jordanian+daily+newspaper+Al+Urdun,+April+9,+1953&source=bl&ots=aof_7aOyA4&sig=-OoX13kv4DStFv910XgwriVO-IM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC3M2tzpfbAhWhxaYKHYH3CGkQ6AEIOTAB#v=onepage&q=The%20Jordanian%20daily%20newspaper%20Al%20Urdun%2C%20April%209%2C%201953&f=false

sarcasticus magnificus

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

And who's fault was it that so many Arabs fled in terror leaving all their belongings behind? Why were they so scared of the Jews?
Now your'e gonna flip at how things never change... Screwed yet again by their leaders.
Just one quote (page 173) from many other interesting bits in the following link:
"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe."
(Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948)
https://books.google.ie/books?id=xhfUGgIt53sC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=The+Jordanian+daily+newspaper+Al+Urdun,+April+9,+1953&source=bl&ots=aof_7aOyA4&sig=-OoX13kv4DStFv910XgwriVO-IM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC3M2tzpfbAhWhxaYKHYH3CGkQ6AEIOTAB#v=onepage&q=The%20Jordanian%20daily%20newspaper%20Al%20Urdun%2C%20April%209%2C%201953&f=false

Hmmm, that book really is a nice objective source (I don't think so). "exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities" ???

Deir Yassin DID happen you know.......

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/MAGAZINE-testimonies-from-the-censored-massacre-at-deir-yassin-1.5494094

Odhinn

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

Yet you can't argue with the data it presents.

It's not data, just another attempt to de-legitimise Palestinians.

sarcasticus magnificus wrote: »

I'll be honest with you, (...............)I'the area is a valid point though.

There are plenty of studies on the facts as I've presented them, based on British and Ottoman data, as is clear from the links I've provided.

I find it significant that you claim "all sources are biased" only when I show the problems with yours.

BalcombeSt4

smurgen wrote: »

That's similar death cult type ideology like Isis believed in.

You are 100% correct. That's why Israel has so much for ISIS, their both extremist nut jobs.

realitykeeper

realitykeeper wrote: »

In ancient times before the Hebrews crossed the Red Sea from Egypt, Israel was occupied by the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. However, going back even further to the time of Jacob, the Israelites lived in the Holy land before the aforementioned tribes. In crossing the Red Sea, God was not just giving Israel to the Israelites, he was also returning it to them and them to it. The Israelis were there first, it belongs to them. God loves Muslims and they are well provided for (if only they would use what they have) but Israel belongs to the Israelis.

mulbot wrote: »

Seriously? Can you show us the proof of this?

Certainly. This link pertains to Joseph who was one of Jabob`s many sons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_(Genesis)

You might also enjoy this production of Joseph and his multicoloured coat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnPClWznEY4

The sin of jealousy is at the core of the story so people who are jealous of the righteous rich (as opposed to those with ill-gotten gains) would do well to watch and learn.

Sponge25

Tell me, what's the difference between Lodz or Warsaw ghetto and Gaza?

weldoninhio

Sponge25 wrote: »

Tell me, what's the difference between Lodz or Warsaw ghetto and Gaza?

US backing.

Grayson

realitykeeper wrote: »

Certainly. This link pertains to Joseph who was one of Jabob`s many sons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_(Genesis)

You might also enjoy this production of Joseph and his multicoloured coat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnPClWznEY4

The sin of jealousy is at the core of the story so people who are jealous of the righteous rich (as opposed to those with ill-gotten gains) would do well to watch and learn.

It's strange to see someone with your username spout such rubbish.

A leprechaun told me that Kerry belonged to me? Can I start killing the Healy-Rae's?

skepticalme

realitykeeper wrote: »

Certainly. This link pertains to Joseph who was one of Jabob`s many sons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_(Genesis)

You might also enjoy this production of Joseph and his multicoloured coat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnPClWznEY4

The sin of jealousy is at the core of the story so people who are jealous of the righteous rich (as opposed to those with ill-gotten gains) would do well to watch and learn.

No words. Hard to believe supposedly intelligent humans believe this rubbish.

Back in the real world, Palastine has referred Israel to the international criminal court. Israel is jumping up and down saying ICC referral has no legal basis as they haven't joined. Wonder why?
In any case they are lying again as crimes were/are committed on Palastinian territory and they are members so it is legal.

Ozymandius2011

I dont think Israel knows what it wants as an end game to this conflict. Its electoral system is similar to ours and the result is you get governments sometimes of 5 or 6 parties. This one is more coherent than some of its predecessors. Its essentially a coalition of rightwing nationalism (Likud), with ultranationalism (Beitenu and Jewish Home) and religious fundamentalist nationalism (Shas). It makes compromise extremely difficult. Likud has seldom been known for compromise but they did negotiate a deal with Egypt which has survived to this day. The decline of the Labour party and the Left generally in part is due to Russian Jewish immigration. Politics and Jewish denomination (Reform, Conservative and Orthodox) tallies closeley around the world with how Jews vote, and in Israel the 1 million Russian Jews are overwhelmingly Orthodox and vote for nationalist, rightwing parties.

The current policy seems to be to contain the Palestinians behind barbed wire and checkpoints, and giving them little or nothing in return. In fact in the West Bank, Mahmoud Abbas' reward for keeping the West Bank quiet (compared to Gaza) for many years has been an expansion of Israeli settlements and house demolitions. The EU some time ago had been considering a travel ban on extremist settlers involved in terrorising the local Palestinian population in the WB but dropped the plan because of opposition from Germany.

James Brown

The Israelis want the Palestinians to go quietly into the night. The Israeli's keep expanding and if the Palestinians protest they get murdered. BiBi doesn't want a two state solution, he's on record.
Trump and his cronies are as big a threat to freedom as any on the planet

Ozymandius2011

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The Israelis want the Palestinians to go quietly into the night. The Israeli's keep expanding and if the Palestinians protest they get murdered. BiBi doesn't want a two state solution, he's on record.
Trump and his cronies are as big a threat to freedom as any on the planet

There is also growing repression of Arab citizens of Israel. The head of the NGO Mossawa says his leg was broken by Israeli police after he was arrested for protesting in support of Gaza in Haifa. Avigdor Lieberman the Defence Minister has called for beheadings of Arabs who criticise Israel. A bill recently passed the Ministerial Council that would allow the revocation of Israeli citizenship in East Jerusalem - a possible step to further expulsions and land seizures by Jewish settlers. Another problem is in the Negev desert where there is increasing land seizures of Bedouin settlements which are then replaced with Jewish settlers. It is very akin to Apartheid.

Also, there is a claim here from David Cronin of the Electronic Intifada website, that Israel uploaded a video from before the Gaza massacre and claimed it was from the day of the demonstration.

realitykeeper

skepticalme wrote: »

No words. Hard to believe supposedly intelligent humans believe this rubbish.

Back in the real world, Palastine has referred Israel to the international criminal court. Israel is jumping up and down saying ICC referral has no legal basis as they haven't joined. Wonder why?
In any case they are lying again as crimes were/are committed on Palastinian territory and they are members so it is legal.

You can stop wondering why. You see a lot of people around the world go about accusing them of lying and committing crimes. With that kind of prejudice Israel would be mad to join the ICC. Also, President Paul Kagame has rightly accused the ICC of prejudice against Africa leaders so it is hardly surprising the ICC has other prejudices also.

dublincelt

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The Israelis want the Palestinians to go quietly into the night. The Israeli's keep expanding and if the Palestinians protest they get murdered. BiBi doesn't want a two state solution, he's on record.
Trump and his cronies are as big a threat to freedom as any on the planet

I actually think and fear that the time is approaching whereby Hasbara will not even be required anymore. Trump and Netanyahu are so tied they may as well be the same administration. Israel can do what it likes. The test bed for the trump admin was Israel coldly and calculatedly implementing a shoot to kill and shoot to maim for life over 3,000 peaceful protestors. A bigger outrage will take place within the next two years. Mark my words. Sorry for such a depressing post.

All right minded people must share the tragedy of Palestine with our friends and acquaintances.

Ozymandius2011

Its getting worse. Now theres indications that Trump may recognise Israeli sovereignty over the Occupied Golan Heights which are part of Syria. If this happens sooner or later Europeans are going to ask why they should accede to US pressure to sanction Russia over Crimea.

https://reut.rs/2Lpa9TT

NKante

Some people might find this interesting. A video compilation of the "peaceful flag waving protest" in Gaza.

I especially liked the part at 7:05 where the palestinians storm the border with Israel and shout that they're going to "slaughter Jews" while one waves a machete at the camera.

Ah, those palestinian scallies. Always able to trust the European left to excuse their behaviour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoqhjKjuQac