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Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

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    #482
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    I completely understand why it would become something you just don't want to bother talking about on boards (or social media, or in general) especially after seeing the cluster**** that was the reality on the ground in Lebanon in the 80's and 90's, but in that case, just ignore the thread, no?
    .

    I mostly did ignore it, ie I didn't justify or make excuse for either side.

    I think I joined the thread when someone posted that a doctor said he was used to not getting shot, then said he was shot whilst standing 25 meters away from some protesters.

    I simply pointed out that in a hostile environment like the Gaza/Israel border/armistice line/security fence or whatever the acceptable term is these days that whether or not you're a doctor standing 25 meters away from people who are likely to be shot at by some little 18 year old conscripted prick isn't the wisest thing to do.

    He also said that he was in hospital greens, but apparently 700m away from the fence. Even the best sniper would be hard pressed to tell him apart from most other people.

    Then I tried to point out that these 'snipers' are mostly infantry men with assault rifles. At 700m your chance of being even the tiniest bit accurate is just about impossible unless you're the best of the best on a range in idle conditions and without cumbersome body armor etc.

    ie most of the shooting would be wild and indiscriminate and coming from all directions, even from inside Gaza.

    Thats all just based on my own experiences of a number of tours of duty in the Middle East and 32 yrs military service.

    **Sh*t.. After typing all that, I think I actually came in to explain with white phosphorus was. Either way I just tried to clear up some things which people weren't understanding, but instead of seeing that as being helpful some people here would rather argue that black is white and not engage in a discussion (like we're doing now).

    The politics of Israel & Palestine is a clusterfook, I don't dare go near it except to say that the siege of Gaza, stealing land, illegal settlements etc are wrong.

    To touch on politics slightly, its always baffled me that there has never been a serious discussion of inviting a UN peacekeeping force into the region (we've had unarmed observers, and an armed contingent back in the Suez canal days but nothing since).

    People say that peacekeeping forces don't work, but given the right (strong) mandate they can work.. UNIFIL is a good example of that.

    UNIFIL 1 was a very weak mandate, almost designed to fail.

    UNIFIL 2 is a very strong mandate and has worked brilliantly (IMO) given that there is now a whole generation of children in Lebanon who have never known war, and we as a country should be very proud that we've played a part in that. And I can absolutely promise you this, the Lebanese love Ireland and deeply appreciate the effort and sacrifices we've made.

    Ireland has left an indelible mark on Lebanon.

    I wonder could the same work in Gaza or the WB (if the land grabbing would ever stop).


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    #483
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Atoms for Peace wrote: »
    I would hope the Irish defence forces would shoot dead any person or groups who would try to cross our border with criminal intent.
    BalcombeSt4 wrote: »
    Well you'd be let down then.

    In 1976 an 8 man SAS unit armed to the teeth was arrested by the Irish Army, not shot dead. The SAS unit had captured a number of Irish citizens in cross border raids & killed them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagstaff_hill_incident

    Also Loyalist death squads between 1972 - 1976 crossed the border with ease & bombed a number of border counties & Dublin city killing over 50 people and injuring over 500 people.

    Fascinating history in that Wikipedia article, the whole lot of it. Very few histories of the conflict cover it. It says "During 1976, there were another 54 incursions by British forces inside the Republic's boundaries.[7] ". If the Irish state were the Israeli state, that's a lot of massacres the Irish should have done according the above poster.


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    #484
    Madd Finn
    Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Madd Finn


    ThinkProgress wrote: »


    Aussie PM Malcolm Turnbull: “Hamas’s conduct is confrontational. They’re seeking to provoke the IDF,”

    "In that conflict zone, you’re basically pushing people into circumstances where they are very likely to be shot at as Israel seeks to defend itself.”

    I'm sure Bull Connor said much the same about the Children's Crusade in Alabama in the 1960s. Right before he turned the fire hoses and Alsatian dogs on them.

    At least the White House and majority American opinion at the time had the good taste to be disgusted and forced in Civil Rights legislation.

    But the pro-Israeli Kool-Aid drinkers won't be deterred.


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    #485
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Otto Embarrassed Falconer wrote: »
    .............

    UNIFIL 1 was a very weak mandate, almost designed to fail.

    UNIFIL 2 is a very strong mandate and has worked brilliantly (IMO) given that there is now a whole generation of children in Lebanon who have never known war, and we as a country should be very proud that we've played a part in that. And I can absolutely promise you this, the Lebanese love Ireland and deeply appreciate the effort and sacrifices we've made.

    Ireland has left an indelible mark on Lebanon.

    I wonder could the same work in Gaza or the WB (if the land grabbing would ever stop).

    Israel would never permit an effective force be deployed in the West Bank under current circumstances, and the US would make sure of it. Should they do what many expect (in the long run, seize certain areas and leave the rest as Palestinian bantustans), its not beyond them to let the UN take care of the mess they leave behind.


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    #486
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Wonder will that clown Bob Geldof be handing back his honorary degree from Ben Gurion University he got im 2011 or are the Palestinians not as fashionable to support as the Rohingya Refugees?


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    #487
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    They are not illegal :D

    It was legal in Nazi Germany to mass murder Jews.


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    #488
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Have we all seen the video of a senior Hamas member stating that the vast majority of those killed were Hamas members?He's interviewed on Palestinian TV and claims 50 out of 62 were Hamas members.


    Also the story of the 8 month old being killed by IDF tear gas has proven to be false according to the Doctor who saw the baby.

    Also a video of a border infiltrator singing like a bird about Hamas's tactics. Quite cynical to use the population in this way.Can't seem to post links here. 


    Just thought people should know there are two sides.


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    #489
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    NKante wrote: »
    Have we all seen the video of a senior Hamas member stating that the vast majority of those killed were Hamas members?He's interviewed on Palestinian TV and claims 50 out of 62 were Hamas members.


    Also the story of the 8 month old being killed by IDF tear gas has proven to be false according to the Doctor who saw the baby.

    Also a video of a border infiltrator singing like a bird about Hamas's tactics. Quite cynical to use the population in this way.Can't seem to post links here.


    Just thought people should know there are two sides.


    Except none of that excuses the multiple unarmed civilians who were injured and killed. It's the same kind of justification used in Bloody Sunday. It was bull**** then and it's bull**** now.


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    #490
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    NKante wrote: »
    Have we all seen the video of a senior Hamas member stating that the vast majority of those killed were Hamas members?He's interviewed on Palestinian TV and claims 50 out of 62 were Hamas members.


    Also the story of the 8 month old being killed by IDF tear gas has proven to be false according to the Doctor who saw the baby.

    Also a video of a border infiltrator singing like a bird about Hamas's tactics. Quite cynical to use the population in this way.Can't seem to post links here.


    Just thought people should know there are two sides.


    Except none of that excuses the multiple unarmed civilians who were injured and killed. It's the same kind of justification used in Bloody Sunday. It was bull**** then and it's bull**** now.
    Well going by Palestinian officials, that mean 12 non Hamas/Islamic Jihad people were killed i.e civilians.
    Given the tactics employed by Hamas to embed themselves into the protest, it's actually remarkable more non-combatants weren't killed.

    Especially as they reportedly attacked a dozen separate points simultaneously along the border trying to breach the border fence. There are Israeli communities just a mile away.
    There was a Hamas cell of 8 who used the cover of the protest to open fire on troops and a cell of 3 Islamic Jihad laying explosives at the fence.
    I've seen videos and it's a scene of utter chaos with black smoke, molotovs, gun fire, tear gas etc.
    It's a hostile border. What would happen if I ran with a Molotov towards the Indian border in Kashmir?


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    #491
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    NKante wrote: »
    Well going by Palestinian officials, that mean 12 non Hamas/Islamic Jihad people were killed i.e civilians.
    Given the tactics employed by Hamas to embed themselves into the protest, it's actually remarkable more non-combatants weren't killed.

    Especially as they reportedly attacked a dozen separate points simultaneously along the border trying to breach the border fence. There are Israeli communities just a mile away.
    There was a Hamas cell of 8 who used the cover of the protest to open fire on troops and a cell of 3 Islamic Jihad laying explosives at the fence.
    I've seen videos and it's a scene of utter chaos with black smoke, molotovs, gun fire, tear gas etc.
    It's a hostile border. What would happen if I ran with a Molotov towards the Indian border in Kashmir?

    Could you tell us where Israel’s borders are??


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    #492
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    At the end of the day the biggest threat to Israel is the murderous policies it pursues. There one of the most hated countries on the face of the earth. Pretty sad as the Jews are great people its the Zionists that will lead Israel down the path of moral degeneration and maybe even destruction.


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    #493
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    NKante wrote: »
    Well going by Palestinian officials, that mean 12 non Hamas/Islamic Jihad people were killed i.e civilians.
    Given the tactics employed by Hamas to embed themselves into the protest, it's actually remarkable more non-combatants weren't killed.

    Especially as they reportedly attacked a dozen separate points simultaneously along the border trying to breach the border fence. There are Israeli communities just a mile away.
    There was a Hamas cell of 8 who used the cover of the protest to open fire on troops and a cell of 3 Islamic Jihad laying explosives at the fence.
    I've seen videos and it's a scene of utter chaos with black smoke, molotovs, gun fire, tear gas etc.
    It's a hostile border. What would happen if I ran with a Molotov towards the Indian border in Kashmir?

    Could you tell us where Israel’s borders are??
    Israel is considered to have withdrawn to the 1967 line with Gaza.


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    #494
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    At the end of the day the biggest threat to Israel is the murderous policies it pursues. There one of the most hated countries on the face of the earth. Pretty sad as the Jews are great people its the Zionists that will lead Israel down the path of moral degeneration and maybe even destruction.
    Vast majority of Jews are Zionists.


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    #495
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    NKante wrote: »
    Vast majority of Jews are Zionists.

    Yet the majority of American jews are against moving the embassy to jerusalem. And against the settlements.


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    #496
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Odhinn wrote: »
    NKante wrote: »
    Vast majority of Jews are Zionists.

    Yet the majority of American jews are against moving the embassy to jerusalem.  And against the settlements.
    That's nothing to do with Zionism. Leftists can be Zionists as much as those on the right. Of course by Zionism I mean the true definition and not the nonsense conspiracy guff that many seem to think it means. Plenty of Zionists don't agree with settlements.
    But the real point I was getting at, is that the incident on Monday was painted as 60 people holding placards and waving flags being mowed down by a callous IDF. I think even the most ardent anti-Israel commentators know that's not the case.


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    #497
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    NKante wrote: »
    .........
    But the real point I was getting at, is that the incident on Monday was painted as 60 people holding placards and waving flags being mowed down by a callous IDF. I think even the most ardent anti-Israel commentators know that's not the case.

    The IDF is indeed callous, has no problem at all targeting children with aimed rifle fire and has and continues to mow down civillians indiscrimately and with impunity.


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    #498
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    NKante wrote: »
    Well going by Palestinian officials, that mean 12 non Hamas/Islamic Jihad people were killed i.e civilians.
    Given the tactics employed by Hamas to embed themselves into the protest, it's actually remarkable more non-combatants weren't killed.

    Especially as they reportedly attacked a dozen separate points simultaneously along the border trying to breach the border fence. There are Israeli communities just a mile away.
    There was a Hamas cell of 8 who used the cover of the protest to open fire on troops and a cell of 3 Islamic Jihad laying explosives at the fence.
    I've seen videos and it's a scene of utter chaos with black smoke, molotovs, gun fire, tear gas etc.
    It's a hostile border. What would happen if I ran with a Molotov towards the Indian border in Kashmir?


    Where are these videos. We have IDF soldiers posting videos of themselves shooting unarmed people yet no videos of these imminent threats. in any case, you talk like there's some justification in the murder of civilians. What are the rules of engagement exactly? If you can shoot through a civilian to kill a potential threat then do it? What about the doctor, the 14 year old and the amputee? All immediate threats?


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    #499
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Odhinn wrote: »
    NKante wrote: »
    .........
    But the real point I was getting at, is that the incident on Monday was painted as 60 people holding placards and waving flags being mowed down by a callous IDF. I think even the most ardent anti-Israel commentators know that's not the case.

    The IDF is indeed callous, has no problem at all targeting children with aimed rifle fire and has and continues to mow down civillians indiscrimately and with impunity.
    Well that's just simply hyperbole. Sounds good to type it out, but you don't have any actual evidence do you?


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    #500
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    NKante wrote: »
    Well going by Palestinian officials, that mean 12 non Hamas/Islamic Jihad people were killed i.e civilians.
    Given the tactics employed by Hamas to embed themselves into the protest, it's actually remarkable more non-combatants weren't killed.

    Especially as they reportedly attacked a dozen separate points simultaneously along the border trying to breach the border fence. There are Israeli communities just a mile away.
    There was a Hamas cell of 8 who used the cover of the protest to open fire on troops and a cell of 3 Islamic Jihad laying explosives at the fence.
    I've seen videos and it's a scene of utter chaos with black smoke, molotovs, gun fire, tear gas etc.
    It's a hostile border. What would happen if I ran with a Molotov towards the Indian border in Kashmir?


    Where are these videos. We have IDF soldiers posting videos of themselves shooting unarmed people yet no videos of these imminent threats. in any case, you talk like there's some justification in the murder of civilians. What are the rules of engagement exactly? If you can shoot through a civilian to kill a potential threat then do it? What about the doctor, the 14 year old and the amputee? All immediate threats?
    Again, I'll repeat myself because it seems you and others are deliberately ignoring this. A senior Hamas figure has admitted that 50 of 62 killed were Hamas members.
    This is a hostile border with a regime that wants to annihilate the people on the other side. This isn't like England/Scotland border.
    Again, what would happen if you rushed the border of South Korea from the North? what would happen if you rushed the Indian border in Kashmir from Pakistan?
    Assuming the you answer the above correctly, tell me why Israel should be any different with thousands of people breaking through the border fence? what are they intending to do, hand out flowers?


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    #501
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy_6j-FMd_k


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    #502
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    In ancient times before the Hebrews crossed the Red Sea from Egypt, Israel was occupied by the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. However, going back even further to the time of Jacob, the Israelites lived in the Holy land before the aforementioned tribes. In crossing the Red Sea, God was not just giving Israel to the Israelites, he was also returning it to them and them to it. The Israelis were there first, it belongs to them. God loves Muslims and they are well provided for (if only they would use what they have) but Israel belongs to the Israelis.


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    #503
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    NKante wrote: »
    Well that's just simply hyperbole. Sounds good to type it out, but you don't have any actual evidence do you?

    Evidence - a very small sample

    Shooting and shelling the UN
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/4534620.stm

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/un-begged-israelis-to-halt-qana-massacre-1305912.html

    Shooting at schools, school children
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/world-disgrace-gaza-un-shelter-school-israel

    https://972mag.com/justice-eludes-palestinian-peace-activist-father-of-girl-killed-by-idf/24984/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/06/israel


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    #504
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    NKante wrote: »
    ..........memri video........

    No thanks.


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    #505
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Odhinn wrote: »
    NKante wrote: »
    Well that's just simply hyperbole. Sounds good to type it out, but you don't have any actual evidence do you?

    Evidence  - a very small sample
    We know that the palestinians have used UN schools for rocket storage and we also know they've fired from 
    the playground of UN schools, hoping that Israel returns fire to the origin of the attack.

    All you've done is show instances in which Israel has made military mistakes. I can do that too with the UK, France, US, Russia etc.

    You said that Israel troops deliberately aim at children and callously murder them. You haven't backed up that assertion because you can't.


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    #506
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Odhinn wrote: »
    NKante wrote: »
    ..........memri video........

    No thanks.
    Yep. Keep denying what was said in the video.


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    #507
    utyh2ikcq9z76b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    NKante wrote: »
    Yep. Keep denying what was said in the video.

    Yeah, keep spreading your Hasbara propaganda. People should be aware that Isreal recruits an army of trolls and it's pointless to get into a debate with them. On the Palestinian side, you have UN resolutions, Amnesty international reports, Human rights watch reports and various other NGO reports etc etc ...All they have is rhetoric and propaganda


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    #508
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    NKante wrote: »
    Again, I'll repeat myself because it seems you and others are deliberately ignoring this. A senior Hamas figure has admitted that 50 of 62 killed were Hamas members.


    Nobody is ignoring it. It simply is irrelevant. You can't point to your good shoots as justification of your murders. And that's assuming they knew those people were Hamas when before they shot them.


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    #509
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Seth Yellow Cobra wrote: »
    Yeah, keep spreading your propaganda. People should be aware that Isreal recruits an army of trolls and it's pointless to get into a debate with them. On the Palestinian side, you have UN resolutions, Amnesty international reports, Human rights watch reports and various other NGO reports etc etc ...All they have is rhetoric and propaganda

    Quite extraordinary that when faced with a video of a senior Hamas figure explicitly saying 50 Hamas dead was an "official figure" - you still call it Hasbara.

    Is this Hamas Hasbara then?

    Really through the looking glass here, pal.


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    #510
    NKante
    Site Banned Posts: 297 ✭✭NKante


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    Nobody is ignoring it. It simply is irrelevant. You can't point to your good shoots as justification of your murders. And that's assuming they knew those people were Hamas when before they shot them.

    Interesting. If ISIS were rushing Ireland's border but forced some of their civilian captives to rush the border with them, you'd obviously call on your army to hold fire?


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    #511
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭mulbot


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    In ancient times before the Hebrews crossed the Red Sea from Egypt, Israel was occupied by the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. However, going back even further to the time of Jacob, the Israelites lived in the Holy land before the aforementioned tribes. In crossing the Red Sea, God was not just giving Israel to the Israelites, he was also returning it to them and them to it. The Israelis were there first, it belongs to them. God loves Muslims and they are well provided for (if only they would use what they have) but Israel belongs to the Israelis.

    Seriously? Can you show us the proof of this?


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