Holocaust Denial [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Dohnjoe

King Mob wrote: »

Again speculation and bull****.

He was obviously bribed by your neo nazis.
I've no evidence for this of course, but that doesn't seem to matter to you.

Either way, you now believe this expert is a lair and unreliable, so you can't just pick and choose which parts you want to keep
If you are going to reject his court testimony, you can't cling to his scientific evidence.

Again why have you flipped on thw idea of the gas chambers existing?

As the saying goes: you can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

People do things without thinking about the negative consequences of their actions. Dr Roth obviously had second thoughts after the feedback came in.

But he made sure to leave this here in his statement.
“In porous materials such as brick or mortar, the Prussian blue [read: hydrogen cyanide] could go fairly deep as long as the surface stayed open, but as the Prussian blue formed, it was possible that it would seal the porous material and stop the penetration.”

This refutes his claim
Cyanide quite easily penetrates through thick, porous layers like walls, as was shown during fumigation experiments in the late 1920s. I linked to this paper already.

Prussian blue is staining that occurs when Zyklon B is used, the gas chambers don't have this staining on the walls.

As he said, penetration would have been 10 micrometers. As has already been stated the plaster on the walls had already deteriorated from the surface of the chambers.

You’re wildly speculating that he perjured himself on the stand to protect the reputation of a lab that did its work with controls against experimenter bias. You offer no evidence for this speculation. You offer no evidence for the speculation that te Nazis Cleaned and showered their prisoners, or what motivation they would have for doing so, if we already agree they were in the business of genocide.

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That made no sense. He was called in to be an expert witness about the Holocaust and, he did not know what the subject was about, you believe this? His statement was prepared before time.

Cement and the walls that are plastered using lime are highly porous.

Before you guys get ahead of yourself did you read what Overheal just posted? Maybe I need to be more specific

You guys miss this line
The samples of brick, mortar and concrete that Leuchter took were of indeterminate thickness:

Hold on hold on hold the f**k on!!

1st you say

Walls of the Auschwitz gas chambers are made of concrete. 

Then you say

What Leuchter said is they measured total cyanide in the brickwork using an internationally recognized analytical procedure that dissolves the total cyanide content.

Which are 2 totally different things and have absolutely no reason to be in the same place as each other. You Then go on to claim

Cement and the walls that are plastered using lime are highly porous

So please explain (with evidence) which was plastered....the concrete walls or the brick walls?

King Mob

So Cheerful, how come your buddy, noted propagandist and racist David Irving didn't call out the fact that his own expert witness perjured himself in court?

Tony EH

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That made no sense. He was called in to be an expert witness about the Holocaust and, he did not know what the subject was about, you believe this? His statement was prepared before time.

Leuchter?

Actually he was called as an expert witness, at Ernst Zundel's trial, on execution equipment, which was his stock and trade. Fred Leuchter knew next to nothing about the holocaust in the mid 80's.

In fact, personally, I believe that the man did these tests in good faith. He wasn't a Revisionist. He wasn't a holocaust denier either. Rather, he was just a little naive. I don't believe he entered into this endeavour with any malice. The first time Leuchter had had any dealings at all with either the holocaust, Revisionism, Auschwitz or anything to do with this was when he was contacted by Zundel's associates to go to Krema I in Auschwitz and take the samples.

Further, if he'd known what damage doing this was going to have on his career/life, I've no doubt he would have refused to any of it. He may have got caught up in the whizz and attention that his new found beliefs afforded, but in the end Leuchter was destroyed because of his association with Zundel, Auschwitz, Zyklon B and prussian blue staining and The Leuchter Report.

Cheerful Spring

Overheal wrote: »

As he said, penetration would have been 10 micrometers. As has already been stated the plaster on the walls had already deteriorated from the surface of the chambers.

You’re wildly speculating that he perjured himself on the stand to protect the reputation of a lab that did its work with controls against experimenter bias. You offer no evidence for this speculation. You offer no evidence for the speculation that te Nazis Cleaned and showered their prisoners, or what motivation they would have for doing so, if we already agree they were in the business of genocide.

This room was not gas chamber it was delousing room in Auschwitz. Prussia blue staining on the walls inside the enclosed room evidence Zyklon 12 was used regularly.



Now the alleged gas chamber. at Auschwitz Zyklon 12 was poured down a hole to kill the Jewish people brought in there. Zyklon left no staining on the wall, why, what happened?

King Mob

So you are now full fledged arguing that the gas chambers didnt exist.
Why did you claim earlier that they did exist? Were you lying?

Cheerful Spring

Tony EH wrote: »

Leuchter?

Actually he was called as an expert witness, at Ernst Zundel's trial, on execution equipment, which was his stock and trade. Fred Leuchter knew next to nothing about the holocaust in the mid 80's.

In fact, personally, I believe that the man did these tests in good faith. He wasn't a Revisionist. He wasn't a holocaust denier either. Rather, he was just a little naive. I don't believe he entered into this endeavour with any malice. The first time Leuchter had had any dealings at all with either the holocaust, Revisionism, Auschwitz or anything to do with this was when he was contacted by Zundel's associates to go to Krema I in Auschwitz and take the samples.

Further, if he'd known what damage doing this was going to have on his career/life, I've no doubt he would have refused to any of it. He may have got caught up in the whizz and attention that his new found beliefs afforded, but in the end Leuchter was destroyed because of his association with Zundel, Auschwitz, Zyklon B and prussian blue staining and The Leuchter Report.

Dr Roth who tested Leuchter samples I was referring to.

That's a balanced summary I can agree with it.

Overheal

King Mob wrote: »

So you are now full fledged arguing that the gas chambers didnt exist.
Why did you claim earlier that they did exist? Were you lying?

yeah, I have to agree.

See the Mod note in the first post of this thread, Cheerful Spring. This was at worst a discussion about the number of Jews that died in the Holocaust, not denial the Holocaust happened, or that the gas chambers were a hoax. This is getting out of hand.

I don’t know the answer to your questions off hand. Perhaps the construction of one room differs from the other. Perhaps we have photographs taken at different times. I don’t know, off hand, but I’m not a historian in the field of study, or a chemical engineer, or a civil engineer. I don’t know if they used a different poison in one location versus another. I do know the millions of Jews were killed in the Holocaust, many were gassed, many were shot, others were asphyxiated in kill-vans, some were used for human experimentation, others were starved to death, died of disease or as direct casualties of war. If you reject that reality: this isn’t the forum or discussion for you.

King Mob

Theres no balance to be had here.

On one side you have the weight of every historian and all the evidence, and on the other you have liars, racists and propaganda.
It's not two opposing sides that are equal.
It's more like flat earthers and actual scientists.

Tony EH

Overheal wrote: »

So where is the evidence they were all cleaned and showered and happy? You seem to love evidence so you have evidence of this?

King Mob wrote: »

Evidence or witness accounts that the concentration camps were these happy fun places you seem to be pretending they are now?

Although these questions aren't directed at me, there are a number of things that need to be clarified.

While the KZ's weren't "happy places", they also didn't look like the pictures we see in 1945, it has to be said. Those conditions are like that because everything had broken down in the last six months of the war and the German priorities had become more focused elsewhere. The camp inmates, living and dead, were diseased with the likes of typhus, dysentery and noma.

In order to function, though, even the concentration camps had to be run with a certain amount of cleanliness and order. In fact, I believe the Red Cross even visited Auschwitz on a number of occasions to carry out inspections.

On cleanliness, the normal process for new prisoners who arrived was pretty uniform. They were showered, deloused and shorn of their hair. This was to prevent the spread of disease, which had to battled against in every camp. The inmates had come from many areas in Europe, across all social strata and from all living conditions. This meant that any disease carrying vermin, such as lice, would have pretty much infested everyone before they got to the camp and most certainly afterward.

Contrary to the popular idea, the nazis didn't want to simply murder everyone who passed through the gates of a camp, even a camp like Auschwitz (which was always just considered a normal Konzentrationslager and not a "death camp"). The primary function of the prisoners was labour, but labour. But in the likes of Auschwitz, that was to be done away with when it was no longer useful. However, that labour was no good, if it was riddled with disease. Disease that could spread to the captors as well as other inmates and inevitably lead to a breakdown in the camp system.

But, by the time 1945 had come around, the infrastructure of the Reich was in a shambles and the concentration camps also suffered. The last of the typhus epidemics hit and caused absolute havoc. In fact, typhus had hit a lot of the camps in that year and the Germans were helpless against it.

We, of course, have the impression of emaciated walking corpses as the standard image of a concentration camp inmate. But, the reality was that these images are usually from Allied photos taken at the end of the war. These people are generally starving because by that stage no rations were getting through at all and they're full of various diseases too. People in such conditions would have been pretty useless as labour for the nazis, however. But, by that stage of the war, the nazis had other things to worry about.

Understandably, there are less photos from the years when "better" conditions prevailed, but there are pictures of relatively healthy camp inmates to be found. But, the Germans hardly wanted to draw too much attention to their camp system, so photographing anything in the camps (unless officially sanctioned) was strictly forbidden.

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This room was not gas chamber it was delousing room in Auschwitz. Prussia blue staining on the walls inside the enclosed room evidence Zyklon 12 was used regularly.



Now the alleged gas chamber. at Auschwitz Zyklon 12 was poured down a hole to kill the Jewish people brought in there. Zyklon left no staining on the wall, why, what happened?

Better chemists than I propose the culprit is the Zinc-plated ductwork in the gas chambers at Auschwitz, which reacted with the gas much more readily than the materials in the wall, thus the vast majority of the gas was catalyzed into zinc-cyanide instead of Prussian Blue. There’s also the differences in concentration levels needed in the gas chambers versus the delousing process. Not to mention all those dying people whose lungs chemically react with the gas. Lots of carbon to go around.

https://www.argunners.com/lack-prussian-blue-staining-walls-gas-chambers/

King Mob

But Tony the claim we are countering and mocking is that the Gas chambers were actually just showers.

We were only bring as serious as that claim warranted.

Tony EH

King Mob wrote: »

But Tony the claim we are countering and mocking is that the Gas chambers were actually just showers.

We were only bring as serious as that claim warranted.

Right. Didn't see that quote.

But, tbh, this thread is all over the place and I can't keep up. I knew it was a mistake jumping in here.

Cheerful Spring

Overheal wrote: »

Better chemists than I propose the culprit is the Zinc-plated ductwork in the gas chambers at Auschwitz, which reacted with the gas much more readily than the materials in the wall, thus the vast majority of the gas was catalyzed into zinc-cyanide instead of Prussian Blue. There’s also the differences in concentration levels needed in the gas chambers versus the delousing process. Not to mention all those dying people whose lungs chemically react with the gas. Lots of carbon to go around.

https://www.argunners.com/lack-prussian-blue-staining-walls-gas-chambers/

You can explain away everything with a theory but has anyone replicated the same conditions to find out?

King Mob

Tony EH wrote: »

Right. Didn't see that quote.

But, tbh, this thread is all over the place and I can't keep up. I knew it was a mistake jumping in here.

It is, but we've been apriciating your informative posts if for nothing else the contrast with the abject lies and dishonesty from our resident deniers.

Cheerful Spring

Tony EH wrote: »

Although these questions aren't directed at me, there are a number of things that need to be clarified.

While the KZ's weren't "happy places", they also didn't look like the pictures we see in 1945, it has to be said. Those conditions are like that because everything had broken down in the last six months of the war and the German priorities had become more focused elsewhere. The camp inmates, living and dead, were diseased with the likes of typhus, dysentery and noma.

In order to function, though, even the concentration camps had to be run with a certain amount of cleanliness and order. In fact, I believe the Red Cross even visited Auschwitz on a number of occasions to carry out inspections.

On cleanliness, the normal process for new prisoners who arrived was pretty uniform. They were showered, deloused and shorn of their hair. This was to prevent the spread of disease, which had to battled against in every camp. The inmates had come from many areas in Europe, across all social strata and from all living conditions. This meant that any disease carrying vermin, such as lice, would have pretty much infested everyone before they got to the camp and most certainly afterward.

Contrary to the popular idea, the nazis didn't want to simply murder everyone who passed through the gates of a camp, even a camp like Auschwitz (which was always just considered a normal Konzentrationslager and not a "death camp"). The primary function of the prisoners was labour, but labour. But in the likes of Auschwitz, that was to be done away with when it was no longer useful. However, that labour was no good, if it was riddled with disease. Disease that could spread to the captors as well as other inmates and inevitably lead to a breakdown in the camp system.

But, by the time 1945 had come around, the infrastructure of the Reich was in a shambles and the concentration camps also suffered. The last of the typhus epidemics hit and caused absolute havoc. In fact, typhus had hit a lot of the camps in that year and the Germans were helpless against it.

We, of course, have the impression of emaciated walking corpses as the standard image of a concentration camp inmate. But, the reality was that these images are usually from Allied photos taken at the end of the war. These people are generally starving because by that stage no rations were getting through at all and they're full of various diseases too. People in such conditions would have been pretty useless as labour for the nazis, however. But, by that stage of the war, the nazis had other things to worry about.

Understandably, there are less photos from the years when "better" conditions prevailed, but there are pictures of relatively healthy camp inmates to be found. But, the Germans hardly wanted to draw too much attention to their camp system, so photographing anything in the camps (unless officially sanctioned) was strictly forbidden.

I know we never agree on everything, but nice to see someone tell the truth for once and has some understanding of what happened in these camps during the war.

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You can explain away everything with a theory but has anyone replicated the same conditions to find out?

You’re a laugh.

YOU can explain everything away with a theory. Jesus wept. Theorizing the lab manager committed perjury. Theorized the Nazis were really just a fine bunch of people that had some odd showering facilities and nice big fires for barbecuing steaks.

Realt Dearg Sec

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You can explain away everything with a theory

It's amazing that you can say this without a hint of irony.

Overheal

I mean replicate them how? Throw some Jews into a room with some poison gas pipe in through zinc ductwork and see if the walls change color after a few years of operation? They discuss the thermodynamics and the chemistry. Sorry if that doesn’t satisfy you. Again, this may not be the forum for you.

Cheerful Spring

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

It's amazing that you can say this without a hint of irony.

So you don't believe in testing out a theory and debunking this claim?

King Mob

Overheal wrote: »

I mean replicate them how? Throw some Jews into a room with some poison gas pipe in through zinc ductwork and see if the walls change color after a few years of operation? They discuss the thermodynamics and the chemistry. Sorry if that doesn’t satisfy you. Again, this may not be the forum for you.

Any study we post is automatically invalid, biased, wrong or fake.
Any study he posts is above reproach even if it doesnt say what he says it says and even when the person who conducted it explains why it's flawed...

Cheerful Spring

Overheal wrote: »

I mean replicate them how? Throw some Jews into a room with some poison gas pipe in through zinc ductwork and see if the walls change color after a few years of operation? They discuss the thermodynamics and the chemistry. Sorry if that doesn’t satisfy you. Again, this may not be the forum for you.

What throwing Jews into a room got to do with anything? Why not are we going anywhere soon? You can replicate the precise conditions and wait to see what happens. Their no willingness to do this unfortunately by holocaust supporters they prefer to believe in theories.

Overheal

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html

“
HCN is much more effective on warm-blooded animals, including humans, than it is on insects. The exposure period (to HCN) is much greater in delousing operations than in homicidal gassings. This means that a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people than to get rid of lice, etc. In delousing, concentrations of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) are sometimes used, and exposure time can be up to 72 hours; while 300 ppm will kill people in fifteen minutes or so.
Therefore, the HCN in the extermination chambers hardly had time to form compounds on the walls. While some claim that the gas would need a lot of time to kill, because it would have to spread all over the chamber, it simply is not true; the gas chambers were not that large (those in Krematoria II and III were about 210 square meters), and the Zyklon-B was dropped from four openings (still visible in the ruins of the gas chambers). Since the concentration used was higher than the lethal one, death was very swift.”

Couple that with aforementioned Zinc catalysis, there just doesn’t appear to have been a lot of time for HCN to react with iron compounds in the walls, certainly not at the same levels of exposure seen in the delousing facilities.

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

What throwing Jews into a room got to do with anything? Why not are we going anywhere soon? You can replicate the precise conditions and wait to see what happens. Their no willingness to do this unfortunately by holocaust supporters they prefer to believe in theories.

Because you would also account for a room full of living breathing bodies absorbing the poison, and at a far lower concentration in delousing for a much much shorter period of time.

You don’t get to mock anyone else here for preferring to believe in theories. You’re about done on this forum if you want to continue this line of debate. The gassing happened. The Holocaust happened. That is not up for debate. You’ve been entertained plenty.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

. Their no willingness to do this unfortunately by holocaust supporters they prefer to believe in theories.

Evidence the lab manager perjured himself? Please and thank you.

Cheerful Spring

Overheal wrote: »

Because you would also account for a room full of living breathing bodies absorbing the poison, and at a far lower concentration in delousing for a much much shorter period of time.

You don’t get to mock anyone else here for preferring to believe in theories. You’re about done on this forum if you want to continue this line of debate. The gassing happened. The Holocaust happened. That is not up for debate. You’ve been entertained plenty.

They found chemical suits and chemical masks at holocaust did they? Did the guards just roll in there unprotected and open a big door to let the cyanide out? Again you entitled your view and so too are others. I don't tell you guys to keep quiet I just discuss the event.

I not mocking the theory I prefer if it was tested and this claim was put to bed, it would not be a theory then we know what happened!

King Mob

Again provide evidence for your theory that the lab manager perjured himself.

Cheerful Spring

King Mob wrote: »

Again provide evidence for your theory that the lab manager perjured himself.

We have studies that show his analysis is flawed which I linked to. He either incompetent or he lied to save his career or maybe he honestly believed what he said was true?

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

They found chemical suits and chemical mask at holocaust did they? Did the guards just roll in there unprotected and open a big door to let the cyanide out? Again you entitled your view and so too are others. I don't tell you guys to keep quiet I just discuss the event.

I not mocking the theory I prefer if it was tested and this claim was put to bed, it would not be a theory then we know what happened!

Hadn’t the Nazis abandoned the camps by then? They actively sought to destroy evidence, even some chambers. I’d be shocked if they left much hazmat gear behind. And gas would have been exhausted surely: either to atmosphere where it’s concentration would become far lower or bubbles through to water where it would become inert. I could see misting or steaming a room having a similar outcome. The primary mechanism being though that the toxin was absorbed into the bloodstream of the dead in the room, which is why concentrations were found in the crematoriums.

All the same, the matter is already at rest. The Holocaust Happened and every time I go out and look at your claims there’s been a thorough debunking of these points, such as my most recent discovery of articles addressing the lack of Prussian Blue on the walls, due to Zinc catalysis, and much lower air concentrations, much shorter exposure times, and absorption by the victims. I don’t know why this is hard to grasp. Next I imagine I will actually go and find out how they exhausted the chambers and to my amusement will confirm that the methods historically used align with my engineering theories above.