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Holocaust Denial [MOD NOTE POST #1]

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    #302
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Overheal wrote: »
    How porous were the walls in this situation? I’m not familiar with the construction of the gas chambers myself. Grout and Tile wouldn’t be nearly as porous as concrete. Plus while it is capable of penetration similar to water by what mechanisms were these tests conducted? Pressure washing? Submersion? And how deep?

    Walls of the Auschwitz gas chambers are made of concrete.

    What Leuchter said is they measured total cyanide in the brickwork using an internationally recognized analytical procedure that dissolves the total cyanide content.


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    #303
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,097 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    “The contents of the report, in particular Leuchter's methodology, are heavily criticised. James Roth, the manager of the lab that carried out the analysis on the samples Leuchter collected, swore under oath to the results at the trial. Roth did not learn what the trial was about until he got off the stand.[3] He later stated that cyanide would have only penetrated to a depth of around 10 micrometres, a tenth of the thickness of a human hair. The samples of brick, mortar and concrete that Leuchter took were of indeterminate thickness: not being aware of this, the lab ground the samples to a fine powder which thus severely diluted the cyanide-containing layer of each sample with an indeterminate amount of brick, varying for each sample.[3] A more accurate analysis would have been obtained by analysing the surface of the samples Leuchter collected. Roth offered the analogy that the investigation was like analyzing paint on a wall by analyzing the timber behind it.[3]”

    Which jives with my initial reservations about claims to how deep the penetration would have been. Yes the labs ground the material but without knowing the thickness of the samples it makes the results essentially useless.


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    #304
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,815 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Overheal wrote: »
    How porous were the walls in this situation? I’m not familiar with the construction of the gas chambers myself. Grout and Tile wouldn’t be nearly as porous as concrete. Plus while it is capable of penetration similar to water by what mechanisms were these tests conducted? Pressure washing? Submersion? And how deep?

    It's well covered in that link I provided earlier, e.g.
    The Leuchter Report claims the “absence of any consequential readings” of hydrogen cyanide [HCN] in the gas chamber samples. Why this claim is meaningless:

    Repeated HCN exposure leaves a blue chemical residue on surfaces called “Prussian Blue.” However, the walls and ceiling of the gas chambers were plastered. The Prussian Blue would have collected on the surface of the plaster and would not have left a substantial presence on the bricks, mortar, or concrete underneath. By the time Leuchter arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau to take his samples, the plaster was long gone due to age and exposure. Even the brick underneath the plaster had been exposed to 43 years of rain, sun, ice, and snow.

    There are historical reasons why finding significant amounts of HCN was highly unlikely. According to the account of Josef Sackar, a member of one of the Sonderkommandos who worked in the gas chambers: “After every killing, we washed everything and sprayed it with a substance so that the odor of the gas would not remain. We also washed the floor of the chamber.”[5] With this type of procedure in place, the plaster of the gas chambers would be far less likely to contain significant amounts of HCN.

    Leuchter’s conclusion, that the present-day remains of the gas chambers have an “absence of any consequential readings” of HCN, proves nothing about the historic use of the rooms as the gas chambers.

    https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ab12-leuchter-report/


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    #305
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Igotadose wrote: »
    what's really sad, is CS is just rehashing things laid to rest 20+ years ago. I recall debating the current crop of deniers with the Nizkor folks in the early 1990's/late 1980's, on Usenet. Really they need some new tunes, their old ones are stale...

    So, question for the deniers - what did Mr. Justice Robert Bork say in ruling on the Mermelstein vs. the IHR case?

    I'm going to guess you're referring to this :
    Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this court does take judicial notice of the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944.... It is not reasonably subject to dispute, and it is capable of immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of reasonably indisputable accuracy. It is simply a fact.

    Oh and by the way I'm not a denier but seeing as the conversation now seems to be headed in the direction of whether or not there actually were gas chambers it seemed like an appropriate enough quote.

    Also maybe it's not what you were referring to as I found it as a quote from Judge Thomas T. Johnson.

    Even though, the sentiment stands


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    #306
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,457 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Walls of the Auschwitz gas chambers are made of concrete.

    What Leuchter said is they measured total cyanide in the brickwork using an internationally recognized analytical procedure that dissolves the total cyanide content.

    Wait!!!!

    What??

    If something is made from concrete then there is no brickwork :confused:


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    #307
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,097 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Maybe if my background was in Civil Engineering I would have spotted that :)


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    #308
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Walls of the Auschwitz gas chambers are made of concrete.

    What Leuchter said is they measured total cyanide in the brickwork using an internationally recognized analytical procedure that dissolves the total cyanide content.
    Leaving aside the contradiction of brickwork and being made of concrete...

    Why refer to it as a gas chamber if it's not a gas chamber?
    Why call into question the gas chambers when you've claimed you've no problem with gas chambers previously? You've flipped back and forth on this before and it seems that you change your position based on what you think you can argue...


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    #309
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Overheal wrote: »
    “The contents of the report, in particular Leuchter's methodology, are heavily criticised. James Roth, the manager of the lab that carried out the analysis on the samples Leuchter collected, swore under oath to the results at the trial. Roth did not learn what the trial was about until he got off the stand.[3] He later stated that cyanide would have only penetrated to a depth of around 10 micrometres, a tenth of the thickness of a human hair. The samples of brick, mortar and concrete that Leuchter took were of indeterminate thickness: not being aware of this, the lab ground the samples to a fine powder which thus severely diluted the cyanide-containing layer of each sample with an indeterminate amount of brick, varying for each sample.[3] A more accurate analysis would have been obtained by analysing the surface of the samples Leuchter collected. Roth offered the analogy that the investigation was like analyzing paint on a wall by analyzing the timber behind it.[3]”

    Which jives with my initial reservations about claims to how deep the penetration would have been. Yes the labs ground the material but without knowing the thickness of the samples it makes the results essentially useless.

    That made no sense. He was called in to be an expert witness about the Holocaust and, he did not know what the subject was about, you believe this? His statement was prepared before time.

    Cement and the walls that are plastered using lime are highly porous.

    Before you guys get ahead of yourself did you read what Overheal just posted? Maybe I need to be more specific

    You guys miss this line
    The samples of brick, mortar and concrete that Leuchter took were of indeterminate thickness:


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    #310
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    That made no sense. He was called in to be an expert witness about the Holocaust and, he did not know what the subject was about, you believe this? His statement was prepared before time.

    Cement and the walls that are plastered using lime are highly porous.
    Wait, so one of the experts who actually analysed the samples you've latched onto says that the samples are invalid.

    So what, he's lying?
    Is he now part of the conspiracy?
    Is he incompetent? Or somehow you, as an admitted non-scientist, are better educated and more knowledgeable in chemistry than the head of a lab?


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    #311
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,097 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    That made no sense. He was called in to be an expert witness about the Holocaust and, he did not know what the subject was about, you believe this?
    It’s not that unusual. Lab techs for instance generally are not provided any context about what they are doing unless it is absolutely material to the performance of their duties. Doing so introduces avenues for biases.

    If you were a Black lab tech and someone told you that if you found x% or compound in your findings it would prove that Blacks were genetically inferior to whites, what do you suppose that might do to influence the work of the tech?

    Criminology labs don’t generally get information about pending cases either. They are just asked to perform work, eg. Test for drugs, semen, DNA matching etc. without bias to whether their work will convict a child rapist or absolve an innocent person of a crime.

    With the background you claim to have I’m surprised you aren’t familiar with how scientific methods work to reduce or eliminate experimental biases.


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    #312
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    King Mob wrote: »
    Leaving aside the contradiction of brickwork and being made of concrete...

    Why refer to it as a gas chamber if it's not a gas chamber?
    Why call into question the gas chambers when you've claimed you've no problem with gas chambers previously? You've flipped back and forth on this before and it seems that you change your position based on what you think you can argue...

    They could be gas chambers, but you don't know if they were, you weren't there. Your opinion is solely based on other people accounts of the event. Would you prefer I call them shower rooms? My belief they likely existed is the eyewitnesses accounts, that's it. The evidence is weak without them.

    Prisoners have to wash and clean so naturally the Nazis would have built large rooms like this for this purpose. The prevention and stop the spread of diseases around the camp, would be a priority.


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    #313
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    They could be gas chambers, but you don't know if they were, you weren't there. Your opinion is solely based on other people accounts of the event. Would you prefer I call them shower rooms? My belief they likely existed is the eyewitnesses accounts, that's it. The evidence is weak without them.

    Prisoners have to wash and clean so naturally the Nazis would have built large rooms like this for this purpose. The prevention and stop the spread of diseases around the camp, would be a priority.
    All evidence shows they were gas chambers. There is no evidence against this fact.


    You've ignored my question about your dishonestly shifting position.

    The Leuchter Report is nonsense.
    Irving is a liar, a racist and a nazi.


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    #314
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,097 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    They could be gas chambers, but you don't know if they were, you weren't there. Your opinion is solely based on other people accounts of the event. Would you prefer I call them shower rooms? My belief they likely existed is the eyewitnesses accounts, that's it. The evidence is weak without them.

    Prisoners have to wash and clean so naturally the Nazis would have built large rooms like this for this purpose. The prevention and stop the spread of diseases around the camp, would be a priority.
    Do the conditions that the prisoners were found in indicate to you that they received adequate hygiene? Really?


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    #315
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Overheal wrote: »
    Do the conditions that the prisoners were found in indicate to you that they received adequate hygiene? Really?
    I mean why would the nazis lie?
    The nazis were just nice guys after all...:rolleyes:


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    #316
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Overheal wrote: »
    Do the conditions that the prisoners were found in indicate to you that they received adequate hygiene? Really?

    Conditions only got worse at the end you are focusing on those pictures when the camp was liberated at the end.


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    #317
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,815 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    They could be gas chambers, but you don't know if they were, you weren't there. Your opinion is solely based on other people accounts of the event. Would you prefer I call them shower rooms? My belief they likely existed is the eyewitnesses accounts, that's it. The evidence is weak without them.

    Prisoners have to wash and clean so naturally the Nazis would have built large rooms like this for this purpose. The prevention and stop the spread of diseases around the camp, would be a priority.

    **** me

    and the crematoria, they must have been used to keep the prisoners warm.


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    #318
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,097 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    King Mob wrote: »
    I mean why would the nazis lie?
    The nazis were just nice guys after all...:rolleyes:

    The ghettos too were such clean places with free flowing water and plenty of citrus and vegetables provided for adequate nutrition and immune system strength


  • Options
    #319
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,097 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Conditions only got worse at the end you are focusing on those pictures when the camp was liberated at the end.

    So where is the evidence they were all cleaned and showered and happy? You seem to love evidence so you have evidence of this?


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    #320
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    Conditions only got worse at the end you are focusing on those pictures when the camp was liberated at the end.
    Evidence or witness accounts that the concentration camps were these happy fun places you seem to be pretending they are now?

    Why are you now claiming the gas chambers didn't exist when previously you said you believed they existed?


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    #321
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,815 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Overheal wrote: »
    The ghettos too were such clean places with free flowing water and plenty of citrus and vegetables provided for adequate nutrition and immune system strength

    Not to mention the free train passes!


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    #322
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,097 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Why, there’s a friendly Reich showering squad now

    bJ6KhM

    https://goo.gl/images/bJ6KhM


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    #323
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    King Mob wrote: »
    Wait, so one of the experts who actually analysed the samples you've latched onto says that the samples are invalid.

    So what, he's lying?
    Is he now part of the conspiracy?
    Is he incompetent? Or somehow you, as an admitted non-scientist, are better educated and more knowledgeable in chemistry than the head of a lab?

    I think he tried to save his career and he got a negative press for this analysis. We know cyanide causes blue staining and was this was not present. It was found in delousing chambers, but not in the gas chambers.


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    #324
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    Overheal wrote: »
    So where is the evidence they were all cleaned and showered and happy? You seem to love evidence so you have evidence of this?

    You don't believe prisoners were allowed to wash they just went unclean for days and weeks and months on end?


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    #325
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,815 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    You don't believe prisoners were allowed to wash they just went unclean for days and week and months on end?

    Jesus christ


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    #326
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    I think he tried to save his career and he got a negative press for this analysis.
    So he's a liar then. Why should we trust him? How do we know he wasn't bribed by known racist, liar and nazi David Irving to make up the report if he's so malleable?

    And if he was so afraid of bad press, why then did he do the analysis in the first place?


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    #327
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    King Mob wrote: »
    So he's a liar then. Why should we trust him? How do we know he wasn't bribed by known racist, liar and nazi David Irving to make up the report if he's so malleable?

    And if he was so afraid of bad press, why then did he do the analysis in the first place?

    He got frightened by the negativity and I believe he was let go by the company he worked for also after this.


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    #328
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Cheerful Spring wrote: »
    He got frightened by the negativity and believe he was let go by the company also after this.
    Fantasy and speculation. You're also a known liar, so this is a bull**** answer.

    If the company was afraid of the negative consequences, why did they allow the sample to be analysed?

    Again, why are you now denying the Gas Chambers existed and agreeing with Irving who also said the holocaust didn't happen at all?


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    #329
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I mean if we can just make **** up like you are...
    In that case David Irving, literal ****ing nazi, bribed experts to produce the analysis he wanted. End of argument.

    So unless you've some evidence this guy was lying to save his career...?


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    #330
    Cheerful Spring
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring


    King Mob wrote: »
    Fantasy and speculation. You're also a known liar, so this is a bull**** answer.

    If the company was afraid of the negative consequences, why did they allow the sample to be analysed?

    Again, why are you now denying the Gas Chambers existed and agreeing with Irving who also said the holocaust didn't happen at all?

    People do things without thinking about the negative consequences of their actions. Dr Roth obviously had second thoughts after the feedback came in.

    But he made sure to leave this here in his statement.
    “In porous materials such as brick or mortar, the Prussian blue [read: hydrogen cyanide] could go fairly deep as long as the surface stayed open, but as the Prussian blue formed, it was possible that it would seal the porous material and stop the penetration.”

    This refutes his claim
    Cyanide quite easily penetrates through thick, porous layers like walls, as was shown during fumigation experiments in the late 1920s. I linked to this paper already.

    Prussian blue is staining that occurs when Zyklon B is used, the gas chambers don't have this staining on the walls.


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    #331
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again speculation and bull****.

    He was obviously bribed by your neo nazis.
    I've no evidence for this of course, but that doesn't seem to matter to you.

    Either way, you now believe this expert is a lair and unreliable, so you can't just pick and choose which parts you want to keep
    If you are going to reject his court testimony, you can't cling to his scientific evidence.

    Again why have you flipped on thw idea of the gas chambers existing?


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