Holocaust Denial [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Dohnjoe

fran17 wrote: »

I believe that to be untrue.

The approach here is a bit strange to say the least

Eisenhower, Patton, Omar and Bradley visiting one of the labour camps, with footage from several other concentration and slave labour camps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh3uqAasdKU (NSFW)

Are there parts of WW2 you are unsure about? or is it only the "cremation and gassing of people" during the Holocaust specifically?

Or have the links provided answered that for you (if not, please explain why)

fran17

King Mob wrote: »

So when Dohn Joe posted a direct quote, directly for the memoir you referenced, that was... what?

A fake by Dohn Joe?
Eisenhower referring to something else entirely?
You live in an alternate reality where you are right?

Again, please continue, you are doing more damage to holocaust denial than we can manage.

Yes I fully accept that what Eisenhower wrote about was an honest account of the barbarism that took place at the end of the war.However the town of Gotha is located in Germany and despite many witnesses who claimed the contrary it is now fully accepted that nobody was gassed to death or cremated in Germany.ie the holocaust.

King Mob

fran17 wrote: »

Yes I fully accept that what Eisenhower wrote about was an honest account of the barbarism that took place at the end of the war.However the town of Gotha is located in Germany and despite many witnesses who claimed the contrary it is now fully accepted that nobody was gassed to death or cremated in Germany.ie the holocaust.

Not all the victims of the Holocaust were gassed and cremated.

He is very obviously referring to the holocaust.

Even if he somehow wasn't, you still have no point to make.

You are grasping at straws because you've been called out on a blatant lie.
Please continue to highlight just how ridiculous holocaust denial can get.

Cheerful Spring

Tony EH wrote: »

You seem to labouring under a number of falsehoods and inncorrect information.

The vast majority of the nazi's victims didn't die in gas chambers. That goes for the Jews too. In Auschwitz, for instance, the biggest killer was disease. Thyphus was rampant from 1944 to the end of the war and claimed a huge number of people and the Germans lacked the ability to combat it effectlively, even if they'd wished to.

Also, the Einsatzkommando claimed about 1 million in the east. Even David Irving, who's often held up as the holocaust denier posterboy, agrees with that.

The nazis did away with people through numerous methods, overwork, undernourishment, hanging, shooting and gassing, along with various other "processes".

Not eveybody was "gassed".

These victims are included in the numbers i got! I agree with you i talked about this very thing in this thread, not everybody was gassed. Jews died from disease and hunger and other methods like you said.

Korherr report does it compiled the number of Jews transported by train to concentration camps in the East (where all gas chambers are located) from the year 1939 to the start of 1943.

Korherr report says 1.4 million Jewish people got transported to the East from all Reich lands ( Soviet Union Jews are not included) He also states 400,000 Jews were kept in labour camps around the Reich to complete work projects.

The war will only last another two years and by 1943 most of the Jews are likely already caught if they have not already escaped to the Soviet Union or emigrated to foreign lands.

pitifulgod

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

These victims are included in the numbers i got! I agree with you i talked about this very thing in this thread, not everybody was gassed. Jews died from disease and hunger and other methods like you said.

Korherr report does it compiled the number of Jews transported by train to concentration camps in the East (where all gas chambers are located) from the year 1939 to the start of 1943.

Korherr report says 1.4 million Jewish people got transported to the East from all Reich lands ( Soviet Union Jews are not included) He also states 400,000 Jews were kept in labour camps around the Reich to complete work projects.

The war will only last another two years and by 1943 most of the Jews are likely already caught if they have not already escaped to the Soviet Union or emigrated to foreign lands.

Only pages ago. You denied the existence of gas chambers and furnaces. I honestly believe you've read very little on topic and just air off the wall views for sake of it.

Timberrrrrrrr

fran17 wrote: »

Yes I fully accept that what Eisenhower wrote about was an honest account of the barbarism that took place at the end of the war.However the town of Gotha is located in Germany and despite many witnesses who claimed the contrary it is now fully accepted that nobody was gassed to death or cremated in Germany.ie the holocaust.

So you think that the holocaust = gassed/burned?

The hundreds of thousands (millions) who died from malnutrition and diseases are to be counted separately?

Cheerful Spring

Tony EH wrote: »

There were six camps that were said to have had gas chambers functioning to various degrees. You've missed out on Chelmno.

If you're trying to make a case here, you'll need to at least get that right.

Chelmno did not have gas chambers like the other camps. Mobile gas chambers were used. You are right though Jewish people at this camp were gassed.

Dohnjoe

pitifulgod wrote: »

Only pages ago. You denied the existence of gas chambers and furnaces. I honestly believe you've read very little on topic and just air off the wall views for sake of it.

This is denial and revisionism with "concessions". Irving did this.

After that it's just a numbers game. Which will be haggled to infinity.

Cheerful Spring

pitifulgod wrote: »

Only pages ago. You denied the existence of gas chambers and furnaces. I honestly believe you've read very little on topic and just air off the wall views for sake of it.

I believe it's a true story the gas chambers existed. I have hard time believing all the survivors were lying?. The research on this topic is not extensive and broad-based as I would like personally that my main issue. From what I gather the only investigation ever conducted was done by Polish authorities in 1946.

Fred Leuchter then in 1988 went to Auschwitz and took samples he did it under cover. He claims after the chemical analysis was done on the gas chamber brick it came back negative for Zyklon 12

Either way millions of Jews died.

wexie

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So you think that the holocaust = gassed/burned?

The hundreds of thousands (millions) who died from malnutrition and diseases are to be counted separately?

Or all of the ones that were simply shot or otherwise killed before they ever made it to any of the camps...

They're no less dead and no less victims

fran17

King Mob wrote: »

Not all victims of the Holocaust were gassed and cremated.

He is very obviously referring to the holocaust.

Even if he somehow wasn't, you still have no point to make.

You are grasping at straws because you've been called out on a blatant lie.
Please continue to highlight just how ridiculous holocaust denial can get.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So you think that the holocaust = gassed/burned?

The hundreds of thousands (millions) who died from malnutrition and diseases are to be counted separately?

Well when it comes to the topic of Holocaust denial/revisionism the general consensus is it revolves around the extermination camps and the 6 million question.I gather then that ye speak in relation to the total 17 million figure?

King Mob

Are you trying to make a point still? Cause if you're just going to ignore any responses...

fran17 wrote: »

Well when it comes to the topic of Holocaust denial/revisionism the general consensus is it revolves around the extermination camps and the 6 million question.I gather then that ye speak in relation to the total 17 million figure?

The total number of people killed in the holocaust, including Jewish and other people is around 11 million.

I have no idea where you are pulling the idea of 17 million.

And yes, the topic of holocaust denial revolves around the Jewish figure alone because of a very specific reason.
The entire conspiracy theory is based on racist/anti-semetic propaganda.

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I believe it's a true story the gas chambers existed. I have hard time believing all the survivors were lying?. The research on this topic is not extensive and broad-based as I would like personally that my main issue. From what I gather the only investigation ever conducted was done by Polish authorities in 1946.

Fred Leuchter then in 1988 went to Auschwitz and took samples he did it under cover. He claims after the chemical analysis was done on the gas chamber brick it came back negative for Zyklon 12

Either way millions of Jews died.

What is the half life of zyklone?

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The approach here is a bit strange to say the least

Eisenhower, Patton, Omar and Bradley visiting one of the labour camps, with footage from several other concentration and slave labour camps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh3uqAasdKU (NSFW)

Are there parts of WW2 you are unsure about? or is it only the "cremation and gassing of people" during the Holocaust specifically?

Or have the links provided answered that for you (if not, please explain why)

There were no gas chambers in Germany. Eisenhower witnessed dead inmates who died from disease and hunger. Camps management completely broke down and the allies were bombing cities and railways and transport deliveries. Germany people even suffered from starvation and needed to be feed when the war was over.

Cheerful Spring

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What is the half life of zyklone?

I not a scientist could not tell you. Leuchter evidence was never dismissed based on scientific reasoning from what I can find out.

Igotadose

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Fred Leuchter then in 1988 went to Auschwitz and took samples he did it under cover. He claims after the chemical analysis was done on the gas chamber brick it came back negative for Zyklon 12

Either way millions of Jews died.

Hint: 40-odd years later with no roof, there's not so much left to sample. Further, Leuchter's a fraud - he's not a chemist and his samples were bogus. He made execution chairs for lethal injections. His claims about being an engineer got him in trouble in his native Canada. His methodology was badly flawed (broken, really)

A few quotes from the rebuttal to the Leuchter report linked to below: "

Because of the relatively small concentrations required to
exterminate humans as opposed to lice, and because of the far shorter
exposure time required, the HCN in the gas chambers used to kill
humans hardly had time to form chemical compounds on the walls.
....
Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers were in
contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those of the delousing
chambers, and for the last 45 years were exposed to surroundings
which dissolve the compounds, while the delousing rooms were not.
Therefore it is obvious that less traces of compounds would remain in
them. This debunks the major "amazing discovery" in Leuchter's
report, which, in retrospect, wasn't 'amazing' at all.


http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/l/leuchter.fred/leuchter.faq1

Igotadose

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I not a scientist could not tell you. Leuchter evidence was never dismissed based on scientific reasoning from what I can find out.

It was. See above. Leuchter's report is garbage.

Dohnjoe

Leuchter report dismissed as junk science
https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ab12-leuchter-report/

Harika

King Mob wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that Eisenhower did directly mention the holocaust, you seem to be suggesting that either he didn't know about it, the holocaust was only invented afterwards or he was for some reason making it obvious there's a conspiracy.

The easy answer is that the term "Holocaust" was not widely used until 1968, Eisenhower died in 1969. When you look up the term in German newspapers from 1945 to 1980 you don't find it, only starting with 1980 it started to be used.

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I not a scientist could not tell you. Leuchter evidence was never dismissed based on scientific reasoning from what I can find out.

Hint: it isn't 40+ years

Cheerful Spring

Igotadose wrote: »

Hint: 40-odd years later with no roof, there's not so much left to sample. Further, Leuchter's a fraud - he's not a chemist and his samples were bogus. He made execution chairs for lethal injections. His claims about being an engineer got him in trouble in his native Canada. His methodology was badly flawed (broken, really)

A few quotes from the rebuttal to the Leuchter report linked to below: "

Because of the relatively small concentrations required to
exterminate humans as opposed to lice, and because of the far shorter
exposure time required, the HCN in the gas chambers used to kill
humans hardly had time to form chemical compounds on the walls.
....
Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers were in
contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those of the delousing
chambers, and for the last 45 years were exposed to surroundings
which dissolve the compounds, while the delousing rooms were not.
Therefore it is obvious that less traces of compounds would remain in
them. This debunks the major "amazing discovery" in Leuchter's
report, which, in retrospect, wasn't 'amazing' at all.


http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/l/leuchter.fred/leuchter.faq1

Leuchter samples were tested by professional laboratories so no his samples are not bogus. Cyanide will penetrate through walls and if gas chambers are used on regular basis it highly like you still find traces or some marker of that usage. He took samples from the area that was not exposed to the elements rain and wind and cold. There more than one alleged gas chamber at Auschwitz. That's Leuchter argument.

Timberrrrrrrr

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Leuchter samples were tested by professional laboratories so no his samples are not bogus. Cyanide will penetrate through walls and if gas chambers are used on regular basis it highly like you still find traces or some marker of that usage. He took samples from the area that was not exposed to the elements rain and wind and cold. There more than one alleged gas chamber at Auschwitz. That's Leuchter argument.

Can you please post a link to a peer reviewed study to back up this claim?

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Leuchter report dismissed as junk science
https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ab12-leuchter-report/

These lines are revealing from your link
There is no way of knowing whether the mortar and bricks that Leuchter sampled had actually come from anywhere near the gas chamber rooms.

They were samples taken from the gas chambers, but lets just put this out for the reader to question the finding. This is deflection tactic.

False
However, the walls and ceiling of the gas chambers were plastered. The Prussian Blue would have collected on the surface of the plaster and would not have left a substantial presence on the bricks, mortar, or concrete underneath

True
hydrogen cyanide is an extremely mobile chemical compound with some of its physical properties quite comparable to water.[23] It can quite easily penetrate through thick, porous layers like walls, as was shown during fumigation experiments in the late 1920s

Dohnjoe

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ab12-leuchter-report/#_edn19

"Given the flawed method of sampling and analysis, even “insignificant traces” of HCN residue in the gas chamber ruble might actually prove just the opposite. It is certainly surprising that trace amounts still existed after 43 years of weather and deterioration. In fact, Polish authorities conducted a properly authorized and meticulously scientific study in 1994. They found that “in spite of the passage of a considerable period of time (over 45 years), in the walls of the facilities, which once were in contact with hydrogen cyanide, the vestigial amounts of the combinations of this constituent of Zyklon B had been preserved. This is also true of the ruins of the former gas chambers.”[19]"

Dohnjoe

And not to mention this diddly

"Leuchter collected the samples in a covert, random, and undocumented manner. There is no way of knowing whether the mortar and bricks that Leuchter sampled had actually come from anywhere near the gas chamber rooms."

"Leuchter’s sampling methods can be seen in the Errol Morris’ film Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter, Jr. In this film, Leuchter can be seen digging big chunks of brick and concrete randomly out of the walls, floors, and ceiling. At one point he even collected chunks of brick and concrete from a puddle of melted snow on the floor of what he claims was a gas chamber. It was not a gas chamber but was actually from the cremation oven area.[4]"

Igotadose

what's really sad, is CS is just rehashing things laid to rest 20+ years ago. I recall debating the current crop of deniers with the Nizkor folks in the early 1990's/late 1980's, on Usenet. Really they need some new tunes, their old ones are stale...

So, question for the deniers - what did Mr. Justice Robert Bork say in ruling on the Mermelstein vs. the IHR case?

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

These lines are revealing from your link
There is no way of knowing whether the mortar and bricks that Leuchter sampled had actually come from anywhere near the gas chamber rooms.

They were samples taken from the gas chambers, but lets just put this out for the reader to question the finding. This is deflection tactic.

False
However, the walls and ceiling of the gas chambers were plastered. The Prussian Blue would have collected on the surface of the plaster and would not have left a substantial presence on the bricks, mortar, or concrete underneath

True
hydrogen cyanide is an extremely mobile chemical compound with some of its physical properties quite comparable to water.[23] It can quite easily penetrate through thick, porous layers like walls, as was shown during fumigation experiments in the late 1920s

bets on what the half life of HCN is?

Cheerful Spring

Overheal wrote: »

bets on what the half life of HCN is?

Dohn joe just claimed the found traces on the walls. Why would traces not be found inside the wall that would be insulated from weather elements?

Cheerful Spring

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Can you please post a link to a peer reviewed study to back up this claim?

There is a paper from 1927 that goes into this very thing and it fits the time period and used construction methods.

L. Schwarz, W. Deckert, “Experimentelle Untersuchungen bei Blausäureausgasungen,” Z. Hygiene und Infektionskrankheiten, 1927, 107, 798-813; ibid., 1929, 109,201-212.

Overheal

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Dohn joe just claimed the found traces on the walls. Why would traces not be found inside the wall that would be insulated from weather elements?

How porous were the walls in this situation? I’m not familiar with the construction of the gas chambers myself. Grout and Tile wouldn’t be nearly as porous as concrete. Plus while it is capable of penetration similar to water by what mechanisms were these tests conducted? Pressure washing? Submersion? And how deep?