DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

Dealerz2.0

The man in red and black wrote: »

Such a weekend! Triple stag for three of my friends in Westport. I said feck it I'm getting the running done because I have weddings coming up in the next 6 weeks that will also clash with long runs. I hope I am not going to get devoured on here I'm aware I was pushing it and risking injury. I got away with it thank God.

Friday was a rest day so no run, Friday night feed of pints.
Saturday Up at 7.30 to stretch then go for 8 mile run. Got lost on the way back so ended up being 9.5miles. then off to climb Croagh Patrick followed by an hour and a half of 5 aside soccer, albeit I was walking around like a pensioner and refusing to chase the ball.
Saturday night added in diarroalytes sporadically between pints. Very little sleep. Finished the fry at 11.30 and decided to chance doing the 20 miles run before the train at 3.45pm. started at 11.49. headed out the greenway with the intention of running 10 miles out and 10 miles back to make sure I finished it. Carried a 1 litre bottle of water for a change. Pace was extremely erratic, few 9.30/mile mixed with some 10.20/miles. Took a gel at 6 miles and 12 miles. Legs felt heavy enough from 6 miles. Bought 2 x 500ml bottles of club energize at 12.5miles. felt a bit like puking after all the sugar as I drank about 700mls of this over 3 miles.
Knew I would get a mental boost at 14 miles as I have a thing in my head that 6 miles is my routine recovery run so when it's 6 miles left I feel like I can kick on. Pace steadily dropped as I was feeling good and wanted to make sure I had time for a shower before the train. Last 2 miles were probably too fast, basically raced them I guess but it was a mental battle. 8.17/mile and 8.13/mile. Finished with an average pace of 9.40/mile over 20.39miles. made the train with 15mins to spare but it was awful having the legs squashed in the seat after such a long run.

Overall amateurish training but it has given me an enormous mental boost, if I am stubborn enough to manage my first 20 miler today after that weekend and finish it strong I am excited to see what I can do with a taper and not having drank a feed of pints and had 3-4 hours sleep two nights in a row.

That’s a savage training plan!

Dealerz2.0

I’m looking for advice about the half and dcm.

My Last weeks 9 mile pmp was at 8:48 per mile. I hit 1:57 at the rock n roll half and 87 mins at frank Duffy.

I feel mentally I can get 3:59:59- and I appreciate it can all go wrong/right on the day.

So question is should I try the half on Saturday at 9 min miles to see if I’ve a strong half marathon in me or back off and just treat it like a training run.

Thanks

skyblue46

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

I’m looking for advice about the half and dcm.

My Last weeks 9 mile pmp was at 8:48 per mile. I hit 1:57 at the rock n roll half and 87 mins at frank Duffy.

I feel mentally I can get 3:59:59- and I appreciate it can all go wrong/right on the day.

So question is should I try the half on Saturday at 9 min miles to see if I’ve a strong half marathon in me or back off and just treat it like a training run.

Thanks

Go for it....and a bit more! If you really want a 3:59 you're going to need a faster than 9 min per mile half. Now is the time to find out!

Dealerz2.0

skyblue46 wrote: »

Go for it....and a bit more! If you really want a 3:59 you're going to need a faster than 9 min per mile half. Now is the time to find out!

Sounds good thanks

Mr. Guappa

The Boards plan has the following on Tuesday:
4m PMP with 5 x 100m strides

I'm not sure exactly what that means. I get PMP, and I get strides, but together? I'm not sure how that works?

Buzwaldo

The man in red and black wrote: »

Such a weekend! Triple stag for three of my friends in Westport. I said feck it I'm getting the running done because I have weddings coming up in the next 6 weeks that will also clash with long runs. I hope I am not going to get devoured on here I'm aware I was pushing it and risking injury. I got away with it thank God.

Friday was a rest day so no run, Friday night feed of pints.
Saturday Up at 7.30 to stretch then go for 8 mile run. Got lost on the way back so ended up being 9.5miles. then off to climb Croagh Patrick followed by an hour and a half of 5 aside soccer, albeit I was walking around like a pensioner and refusing to chase the ball.
Saturday night added in diarroalytes sporadically between pints. Very little sleep. Finished the fry at 11.30 and decided to chance doing the 20 miles run before the train at 3.45pm. started at 11.49. headed out the greenway with the intention of running 10 miles out and 10 miles back to make sure I finished it. Carried a 1 litre bottle of water for a change. Pace was extremely erratic, few 9.30/mile mixed with some 10.20/miles. Took a gel at 6 miles and 12 miles. Legs felt heavy enough from 6 miles. Bought 2 x 500ml bottles of club energize at 12.5miles. felt a bit like puking after all the sugar as I drank about 700mls of this over 3 miles.
Knew I would get a mental boost at 14 miles as I have a thing in my head that 6 miles is my routine recovery run so when it's 6 miles left I feel like I can kick on. Pace steadily sped up as I was feeling good and wanted to make sure I had time for a shower before the train. Last 2 miles were probably too fast, basically raced them I guess but it was a mental battle. 8.17/mile and 8.13/mile. Finished with an average pace of 9.40/mile over 20.39miles. made the train with 15mins to spare but it was awful having the legs squashed in the seat after such a long run.

Overall amateurish training but it has given me an enormous mental boost, if I am stubborn enough to manage my first 20 miler today after that weekend and finish it strong I am excited to see what I can do with a taper and not having drank a feed of pints and had 3-4 hours sleep two nights in a row.

Would be a great mental boost alright to have a weekend like that!. About 25 years ago I might have been able for similar, but I would be buckled now with half that in a weekend. (Sighs yearningly for long lost youth).
Rest up a bit, train again, and have a great DCM.

Buzwaldo

Hobbyjogger wrote: »

Learned some tough lessons today..

I ran the JJ Reddy Half Marathon in Danesfort, Kilkenny. The original plan was to run at PMP so based on my most optimistic calculations would be a 3:40 marathon, 1:50 half. I planned to stick to the 1:50 pacer and have a very comfortable race.. but I got too confident! In the build up to today (based on MP training sessions) I thought I might be able to get closer to 1:45, maybe break it and be really set for the 3:40 goal. So I decided to stick with the 1:50 pacer for the first 5k (after hearing feedback that this was the hardest section) and then push the pace myself from there.

I was up early to watch Kipchoge and I made a promise - if he does it today, then I’ll do what I set out to too! Haha I cycled out to danesfort which was more uphill than I thought, and I’m not a cyclist! I was using my 14 year old sisters pink mountain bike with no gears so I was sweaty and nervous when I arrived. The setup was impressive! Music blaring, lots of tents offering all kinds of things, stewards everywhere. I rented a locker and quickly threw my things in and went for a 2km warm up around the pitch before running to the start line.

So I did as planned, stuck with the 1:50 pacer for 5km and then pushed on.. anyone that follows me on Strava can see the pace picked up for that km and then dropped! I had been feeling great with the pacer and contemplated sticking with him but I didn’t want to come away with anything less than my best so I pushed past him and tried to get a good bit away but my calves just seized up! I had multiple stitches which pulled my body down, I was too warm from the get go (where did that weather come from?!) Around the 5th mile I gave up mentally, the goal was out of reach and I felt like there was no point finishing, I decided I was done.. but I didn’t know where I was! So I had no choice, I kept going with the plan to drop out if the loop brought me close to the club. After awhile I knew this wasn’t going to happen, I would finish the race but after mentally giving up, the motivation was gone.. my legs were not moving the way I wanted, even on downhill sections, I kept getting stitches here and there, and I was miserable!

I changed the goal to sub 1:55, which looking back now was a great idea because it gave me something reachable to aim for.. and I did it. My time was 1:54:18 (my PB before was 1:58:26) so it wasn’t a complete loss. Also, if anyone’s bothered checking the elevation on my Strava, you could certainly say it was a factor!! I crossed the finish line and to my surprise my parents were there to congratulate me and had brought the van to bring me and the pink bike home! I also must give a special mention to the goody bag, packed full of treats including a full pack of biscuits

Plan now is to reevaluate my MP.. I’m thinking of going with 3:50 pacer (I work well with a pacer (zone out and not freak out about times) and if all comes to all, drop off and break 4. Lesson of the day: remember to appreciate the fact that I’m training for a marathon and hopefully will complete it, that’s amazing in itself. I got wrapped up in fast times! Sorry for the long moany post, I’m actually happy I got the kick up the bum needed to relax and enjoy this whole mental amazing thing

Was a great day in Danesfort alright, and the way the sun came out made it all a bit harder for all.
I had the vague plan earlier in my training cycle that if I could do today in 1.50 I might consider a 4 hour target on the day itself. I knew before today, with less than ideal training, a heavy weekend last week, and a few niggles that that wasn't going to happen. In the end, I hoped to match my run last year of 1.54.55 or so (my only HM race to date), but definitely wanted to get in in two hours.
As it happened I had a good run, kicked on a bit after half way picking off a few, and just about held it together on the drags in the last 2-3 k, to finish in 1.54.19, just after your good self as it happens! I now know to target 4.15 or thereabouts.
I sneakily took your info above and had a snoop at your strava profile (while I am on strava, I never got around to joining the group).
You're averaging over 70k per week for the last 4 - twice my distance:( and you did a half marathon in 1.48 in the middle of a long run last weekend!
The heat, the lack of taper, the cycle out (a black bike would have been better!) all contributed to what you feel was a substandard run. Your run today wasn't that much of a disaster -you only had 3 kilometers over the 6 minute mark, and those on that draggy bit at the end.
The head issues you suffered today should act as a lesson helping you keep the head right on the big day.
Your HM PB was 1.58, so I guess you are newish to the long distance stuff (as am I, but I learned and saw a lot from friends and my OH doing DCM the last few years).
I read earlier in thread the importance of enjoying your first marathon, and a conservative target will help that. You should easily nail sub 4 hrs going by my Strava snooping. After that nobody will care that much whether you run 3.55 or 3.45.
You can better it next year anyway.

coogy

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

The Boards plan has the following on Tuesday:
4m PMP with 5 x 100m strides

I'm not sure exactly what that means. I get PMP, and I get strides, but together? I'm not sure how that works?

Unless I'm mistaken, it's recommended that you tag the strides on to the end of your run (or as close to the end as possible).

skyblue46

coogy wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken, it's recommended that you tag the strides on to the end of your run (or as close to the end as possible).

That's exactly right. The principle doesn't change just because it's PMP rather than easy miles beforehand.

Mr. Guappa

skyblue46 wrote: »

That's exactly right. The principle doesn't change just because it's PMP rather than easy miles beforehand.

Ok, so should my run look something like?
1 mile warm up
4 miles at PMP
Strides
1 mile cool down

And for the strides, should I begin at Easy pace and accelerate? Or do I keep going at PMP and accelerate further from there?

skyblue46

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Ok, so should my run look something like?
1 mile warm up
4 miles at PMP
Strides
1 mile cool down

And for the strides, should I begin at Easy pace and accelerate? Or do I keep going at PMP and accelerate further from there?

Warm up and cool down are ok. 4 miles at PMP, slow jog until breathing returns to normal. Strides...30 metres gradual pick up, 40 metres at 85% of your max pace, 30 metres easing down. Jog back the 100m slowly and repeat. Then a cooldown jog.

skyblue46

So the number of weeks left is quickly reducing. Some people feel on top of everything, others are riddled with doubt. For some it's a time not to be complacent, for others a time to face the challenge head on. It won't be easy.

The best can struggle...a quote here from Gary O Hanlon who was the first Masters finisher in Berlin.. "22nd in the Berlin Marathon and 1st Master..Nowhere near the time I was expecting but by mile 22 when the wheels came off it was a case of "run when you can, walk if you have to, crawl if you must but never give up".

The man in red and black

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

That’s a savage training plan!

It wasn't planned out intentionally, couldn't recommend it :rolleyes: . I was debating up to Friday night whether to skip Croagh Patrick or try run it as my 8 mile run. In the end peer pressure to go with the group got the better of me and I did the run and walked the mountain.

Buzwaldo wrote: »

Would be a great mental boost alright to have a weekend like that!. About 25 years ago I might have been able for similar, but I would be buckled now with half that in a weekend. (Sighs yearningly for long lost youth).
Rest up a bit, train again, and have a great DCM.

Thanks. Looking forward to it now. Never thought I would enjoy the running as much as I have.

aloooof

Just got my email this morning, Wave 4. Was undecided about either going with the 4:20 or 4:30 pacers, so that makes my mind up for me!

Helenasca

Wave 4 aswell. It's all feeling very real.

Anyone else thinking about the marathon all the time, running it, about the pacing, about what food to eat and when. And the best bit about actually finishing it. It's even taken over my dreams.

Hedgehoggy

Helenasca wrote: »

Wave 4 aswell. It's all feeling very real.

Anyone else thinking about the marathon all the time, running it, about the pacing, about what food to eat and when. And the best bit about actually finishing it. It's even taken over my dreams.

Have had two dreams about the marathon in recent days!

Hobbyjogger

Buzwaldo wrote: »

As it happened I had a good run, kicked on a bit after half way picking off a few, and just about held it together on the drags in the last 2-3 k, to finish in 1.54.19, just after your good self as it happens! I now know to target 4.15 or thereabouts.
I sneakily took your info above and had a snoop at your strava profile (while I am on strava, I never got around to joining the group).
You're averaging over 70k per week for the last 4 - twice my distance:( and you did a half marathon in 1.48 in the middle of a long run last weekend!
The heat, the lack of taper, the cycle out (a black bike would have been better!) all contributed to what you feel was a substandard run. Your run today wasn't that much of a disaster -you only had 3 kilometers over the 6 minute mark, and those on that draggy bit at the end.
The head issues you suffered today should act as a lesson helping you keep the head right on the big day.
Your HM PB was 1.58, so I guess you are newish to the long distance stuff (as am I, but I learned and saw a lot from friends and my OH doing DCM the last few years).

It’s a pity I didn’t see your message on time, maybe we both could have stuck to the 1:50 pacer! So funny we finished at the same time. I’m glad your run went well, those hills weren’t easy. Yes I do think the lack of experience in long distance racing played a big part. And unlike you I didn’t listen to the OH who had advised me, he was right of course. I’m glad it went the way it did, I’ve learned my lesson and feel ready to get back on track now. Thanks for your reply, really pepped me up! Will follow you on Strava

gypsylee

Helenasca wrote: »

Wave 4 aswell. It's all feeling very real.

Anyone else thinking about the marathon all the time, running it, about the pacing, about what food to eat and when. And the best bit about actually finishing it. It's even taken over my dreams.

It's all consuming isn't it? I never wake during the night but the last week I've been wide awake about 3 o'clock and full of running thoughts! The doubts creep in in the middle of the night.

Buzwaldo

Hobbyjogger wrote: »

It’s a pity I didn’t see your message on time, maybe we both could have stuck to the 1:50 pacer! So funny we finished at the same time. I’m glad your run went well, those hills weren’t easy. Yes I do think the lack of experience in long distance racing played a big part. And unlike you I didn’t listen to the OH who had advised me, he was right of course. I’m glad it went the way it did, I’ve learned my lesson and feel ready to get back on track now. Thanks for your reply, really pepped me up! Will follow you on Strava

No we couldn't!. I assure you 1.55 was the most I could have wrung out of yesterday. If I started with the 1.50 pacer, I would have been lucky to come home under two hours. You're in a different league to me.:cool:

tbukela

It's amazing how obessive you can became about the marathon alright.

I spent ages last night trying to figure out how much more wear and tear the shoes I plan on wearing for DCM will take in the next few weeks. I'm currently rotating 3 pairs but I'm not happy with the amount of miles in the big day pair as it is. I think I'll just bite the bullet and get a new pair, still have enough time to break them in. Any excuse really.

yido1882

Could I ask a question around target marathon times please? I've read earlier that a good indicator is 2* half marathon time + 20 mins. 
For those that have completed the marathon, did your time reflect that calculation? 

I'm thinking I could do just under 4 hours but having being put in Wave 2 for DCM and the slowest pacer in that wave is 3.50, I'm contemplating going for 3.50 

I did the RnR half in just under 1:45 so that would put me bang on 3.50 based on the above calculation.

ariana`

yido1882 wrote: »

Could I ask a question around target marathon times please? I've read earlier that a good indicator is 2* half marathon time + 20 mins. 
For those that have completed the marathon, did your time reflect that calculation? 

I'm thinking I could do just under 4 hours but having being put in Wave 2 for DCM and the slowest pacer in that wave is 3.50, I'm contemplating going for 3.50 

I did the RnR half in just under 1:45 so that would put me bang on 3.50 based on the above calculation.

Out of interest how did you feel at the end of RnR? I'd say 3:50 is cautiously realistic based on that formula and the fact that RnR was a tough course.

But you do know you can move back a wave if you decide to stick with the 4 hour pace group, there's no issue with going down a wave, the issue is with going up a wave.

That calculation is realistic assuming that sufficient training is done for the longer event. Here's a table of people's HM and corresponding full times.

yido1882

ariana` wrote: »

yido1882 wrote: »

Could I ask a question around target marathon times please? I've read earlier that a good indicator is 2* half marathon time + 20 mins. 
For those that have completed the marathon, did your time reflect that calculation? 

I'm thinking I could do just under 4 hours but having being put in Wave 2 for DCM and the slowest pacer in that wave is 3.50, I'm contemplating going for 3.50 

I did the RnR half in just under 1:45 so that would put me bang on 3.50 based on the above calculation.

Out of interest how did you feel at the end of RnR? I'd say 3:50 is realistic based on that formula and the fact that RnR was a tough course.

But you do know you can move back a wave if you decide to stick with the 4 hour pace group, there's no issue with going down a wave, the issue is with going up a wave.

That calculation is realistic assuming that sufficient training is done for the longer event. There's a table of people's HM and corresponding full times.

Thanks for the response. I ran the second half of the RnR faster than the first half and finished fast but I was absolutely fecked after it! 
I've been thinking for a few weeks that I could possibly run the DCM around the 5.30 p/km pace but some of the runs make me doubt myself and other times I think it's realistic. 3.50 would mean I'd have to go slightly faster again. 
Yeah I heard you can drop back a wave so I'm glad that option is there, I'll probably bottle it on the day and drop back but was just curious to see if people's half marathon times were reflected in their marathon time based on that calculation

Helenasca

tbukela wrote:

I spent ages last night trying to figure out how much more wear and tear the shoes I plan on wearing for DCM will take in the next few weeks. I'm currently rotating 3 pairs but I'm not happy with the amount of miles in the big day pair as it is. I think I'll just bite the bullet and get a new pair, still have enough time to break them in. Any excuse really.

Ah don't even be putting notions like that in my head

RayCun

Helenasca wrote: »

Does anyone know where I can get a decent map of the course. The one on the DCM website isn't great once you zoom in!

You'll find it on strava easily enough. I'd link one but I'm on my phone

skyblue46

You could try this.....https://www.strava.com/activities/1252660434

Any compliments about my pacing strategy will be graciously welcomed!

Mr. Guappa

skyblue46 wrote: »

You could try this.....https://www.strava.com/activities/1252660434

Any compliments about my pacing strategy will be graciously welcomed!

Looks like something I was playing around with on the pacing link you put up last week.
I'm kind of on the fence on whether to target the 4 hours, so I was thinking of going with a very conservative start and aggressive negative split, that way I figure I can bail out of the 4 hour target around halfway if I'm not feeling it.

bucketybuck

skyblue46 wrote: »

You could try this.....https://www.strava.com/activities/1252660434

Any compliments about my pacing strategy will be graciously welcomed!

It must have been hard for you to hold back so much for the the first half...

I have to admit to feeling a little bit fatigued this week. I was actually feeling pretty good after the 20 miler last Saturday, I finished it well and had no real issues recovery wise Sunday and Monday. Then came the pace run last Wednesday evening, my plan called for 13km at pace but I decided to increase that to 17km to match with the boards plan. I got it done, but for the first time was feeling a bit dead in the legs come the end.

That continued into the 26km on Saturday, again I got it done without any real problems but I was definitely not as lively as I had been the previous week. And again tonight for what should have been a handy 5k, I can do it but there is still that fatigue hanging over me, which means I'm not really looking forward to an 8km pace run tomorrow.

Oh well, harden the **** up I guess. I do feel like I could do with a week off but hopefully this is just the natural effects of months of increasing training.

skyblue46

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Looks like something I was playing around with on the pacing link you put up last week.
I'm kind of on the fence on whether to target the 4 hours, so I was thinking of going with a very conservative start and aggressive negative split, that way I figure I can bail out of the 4 hour target around halfway if I'm not feeling it.

It was exactly, almost to the second, as per that link at least until somewhere between miles 18 and 20 if I remember. Then a sore knee made me pick it up a bit.

racersedge

This evening's plan was supposed to be the easy 8K....

...the wind had other ideas... :rolleyes::pac::pac::rolleyes:

Counting that run as my paced run for the week. Kind of went from wind-assisted to wind-affected, followed back by wind-assisted. Some bluster out there though at times. I knew by the end of the first klick and a bit that I was tracking much quicker than expected. So I made the judgement call to treat it as the paced run for the week. Means two nice and easy strolls later on in the week ahead of the 30K+ at the weekend.