Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Silentcorner

Worried Father wrote: »

Totally illogical comparison. Perhaps if I parked my BMW in the worst estate ever and made my family sleep in it, you'd have a point.

Totally illogical answer...your car doesn't need to be a beemer, your house can be anywhere...my point is, sometimes a person finds themselves in a dangerous situation not of their making...the law should protect those people...

Depp

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Ok not all male but she wasn't friends with the girls either. Dara Florence was some friend if so.

Why? Because she accurately reported what she saw?

NAGDEFI

As regards the Belfast victim. She was left bleeding, upset and totally belittled by the men involved both that night and the following day in those whatsapp messages. I hope she gets her life back to some extent. This could be any of our daughters or sisters.

Bob_Marley

NAGDEFI wrote: »

If i was giving advice to a teenager, male or female, going out i think it would be never drink to the extent you are not aware of what's happening around you. Stay with good friends you can trust. Unfortunately young people make mistakes and that's always been the way.

Yes the root cause of this mess of a case was the excessive consumption of alcohol by all parties, but the rest of your post smacks of more patronising victim blaming and defending of rape.

Silentcorner

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

You don't have any answers, you want to jump onto a bandwagon do a lot of finger pointing and provide no solutions/alternatives.... Genius!

Oh...another smart one...you're too slick for me!!!

I have made suggestions/alternative....

I have pointed my finger at the society I live in...

suicide_circus

Nermal wrote: »

A letter writer in the IT today seriously suggests that all juries must be 50:50 men and women, have to be chaired by a 'neutral' (LOL) chairperson and should have 'sufficient experience and competency to process and understand' the case (no doubt they have to take and pass a consent class, right?).

Hugely, hugely dangerous assaults on freedoms we have had since medieval times, casually broached in the paper of record.

Say goodbye to being judged by your peers guys, say hello to a kangaroo court of blue-haired fruitcakes.

If these loons get any traction I may have to get off my arse and take to the streets myself

suicide_circus

Silentcorner wrote: »

They use it in Scotland...so ya...

But how would that increase the rate of convictions?

NAGDEFI

Depp wrote: »

Why? Because she accurately reported what she saw?

No i'm saying, hypothetically, if the victim was indeed being raped, and Dara Florence was a true friend, she would have done more than look. I was making the point to another poster that the victim had no friends in the house.

Fann Linn

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Somalia, that's your bar for the justice system ?

I don't think you'd be making witty Somalia remarks and smilies if it was one of your own family that was raped and went to the authorities.

It amazes me that people think that a 0.018 % conviction rate for officially reported rapes in NI is ok, and they are happy with that, and think it's going to deliver a good longterm outcome for society.

The conviction rates and prosecution of rape trials are different in this society. In fairness, we probably have the best of the bad lot when it comes to Irl or the UK.

Hence my confusion at protestors down here going bananas over a court case in a different country.
I wonder what the next country will be to fall foul of Irish feminists?

Bob_Marley

Worried Father wrote: »

No genius, I was mocking your claim that there is 'no real law and order' in this country.

So genius do you think a 0.018 % conviction rate for reported rape is effective law and order ?

Silentcorner

suicide_circus wrote: »

If these loons get any traction I may have to get off my arse and take to the streets myself

Well if you want to affect change...you won't do it sitting on your arse...get up and get organised...it's a healthy thing to do....don't mind anyone who think you might be a loon....they're normally nutters themselves....

hynesie08

So, have any of the #sueme/I believe crew thought that in future defense attorneys are going to start using social media as grounds to disqualify jurors? Meaning they've basically ruling themselves out of potentially helping victims? Or is that too rational?

Bob_Marley

Fann Linn wrote: »

The conviction rates and prosecution of rape trials are different in this society. In fairness, we probably have the best of the bad lot when it comes to Irl or the UK.

Hence my confusion at protestors down here going bananas over a court case in a different country.
I wonder what the next country will be to fall foul of Irish feminists?

ya screw victims and people in NI, it's over an hour away by road.

Bob_Marley

Worried Father wrote: »

If I can't be proven it can't be proven and the perp is free to go. It's the only way it can be.

Do you really think a 0.018 % conviction rate for reported rape is effective law and order ?

Silentcorner

suicide_circus wrote: »

But how would that increase the rate of convictions?

Deterrent...the verdict no longer is black or white....and still maintain the high bar to reasonable doubt in the case of a criminal conviction....

You probably have a better suggestion, or do you wish to leave well enough alone?

NAGDEFI

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I'm just leaving my laptop now but thanks to all for the reasoned debate.

I'd just like to conclude with my thoughts that i posted a few days ago.

'This is a really sad story for all concerned. I was about to say no one knows what happened bar the concerned parties. However with the amount of alcohol etc the concerned parties may not know either. You hope the young woman and young men recover to lead lives as normal as possible.

If i was giving advice to a teenager, male or female, going out i think it would be never drink to the extent you are not aware of what's happening around you. Stay with good friends you can trust. Unfortunately young people make mistakes and that's always been the way.

All the various marching groups are only prolonging the misery for all concerned. At the end of the day drink awareness training and also sexual behaviour, pornography versus reality need to be taught to young people.'

Yep, closing the laptop is not a bad idea NAGDEFI at this point- there's a lot on social media who should consider that also.

How about hashtag -#closingthelaptop

ShowMeTheCash

Silentcorner wrote: »

Oh...another smart one...you're too slick for me!!!

I have made suggestions/alternative....

I have pointed my finger at the society I live in...

You have not made a single suggestion that would increase convictions.
You have made suggestions that may make the proceedings less traumatic for the victim and a third category which arguably could hurt the conviction rates as they are...

Not about me being smart, you are making yourself look foolish.
Point the finger if you think you have a solution, then maybe I will listen to you.

Bob_Marley

Worried Father wrote: »

How do you propose to improve it? I believe in due process otherwise we would be back to Old Testament justice.

The first step to finding a solution to a problem is being honest enough to acknowledge there is one.
I'll ask you again, do you think a 0.018 % conviction rate for reported rape is effective law and order ?

The Talking Bread

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well the purpose of justice is twofold...

One, to provide the victim with some sense of justice (less someone takes the law into their own hands)

Two, to provide a deterrent to others.

A Not Proven option would mean a leat the victim could leave the court and not be labelled a lier....it would also allow a jury, that fundamentally believe the victim but do not feel sufficiently convinced enough to convict a person....

Ina civil court the bar is lower....should that be revised up?

Only a very ignorant few have claimed she is definitely a liar. It is the other opposing side which is more toxic in their castigating. Most people who are tackling the #IBelieveHer brigade are tackling them on the basis that they are suggesting that she definitely is telling the truth, PJ and Golding are definitely rapists and the justice system is definitely deeply flawed and biased.

A "not proven guilty" (essentially what a verdict of not guilty is anyway given that you walk into court an innocent man) won't increase the conviction rate at all.

Infini

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Also I notice #suemePaddy trending on twitter...... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Axwell

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So genius do you think a 0.018 % conviction rate for reported rape is effective law and order ?

Just for the sake of using correct information its 1.8%...not 0.018%

Fann Linn

Bob_Marley wrote: »

ya screw victims and people in NI, it's over an hour away by road.

Well what about Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow and as some other lad keeps posting Rotherham.
Or perhaps 3000 on Death Row in the US or perhaps 10000 Falun Gong in China.

Or is it really that 2 or 3 celebs are named and despite the not guilty verdict, the protestors are out with the posters.

Carlos Orange

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So genius do you think a 0.018 % conviction rate for reported rape is effective law and order ?

The conviction rate is actually 100 times larger than what you claim.

Fann Linn

psinno wrote: »

The conviction rate is actually 100 times larger than what you claim.

Genius.

Bob_Marley

Axwell wrote: »

Just for the sake of using correct information its 1.8%...not 0.018%

Sorry meant 1.8 %, so do you think that is an acceptable conviction rate for rape cases that make it to court ? and effective for law and order ?

Silentcorner

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

You have not made a single suggestion that would increase convictions.
You have made suggestions that may make the proceedings less traumatic for the victim and a third category which arguably could hurt the conviction rates as they are...

Not about me being smart, you are making yourself look foolish.
Point the finger if you think you have a solution, then maybe I will listen to you.

Well then, outline how they wouldn't?

Who are you to say I am making a fool out of myself?

How are you quantifying my foolishness? Am I the biggest fool here or the only fool?

Am I a fool because you agree with my concern with our conviction rates and and communicating it poorly?
Or is it because I am a fool because I'm concerned with the rate of conviction?

Come on smart boy....

_Whimsical_

Does anyone else find the evidence of the girl who witnessed the incident strange? Was her name Dara?

She said her friend had gone upstairs to lay down. A little later she followed and said she heard sex noises, an aggressive male moan.
She then entered the room this was coming from, far enough to see just who was having sex.

Who walks in while people are having sex in a room?

The only reason I can think that id do that would be if I heard something very concerning and I was very worried about my friend.
Even then I think I'd call out her name first and see if a reply came.

I think I'd either have to have serious queries about the company I was keeping or have heard something really worrying before I'd walk right into a room where I was sure people were having sex.

Or do other people just ramble in to their friends while theyre in the middle of having sex?

hynesie08

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Sorry meant 1.8 %, so do you think that is an [acceptable conviction rate for rape cases that make it to court ? and effective for law and order ?[/b]

"In 2016, 396 cases of alleged rape were passed over to the PPS by police.

That same year, 68 of those cases were prosecuted out of which 29 defendants were convicted."

So a real conviction rate of 42% give or take.....

Bob_Marley

Worried Father wrote: »

So what's your solutions?

I would rather a criminal get off than an innocent man go to jail. Yes it sounds bad that only a % of criminals get convicted but if you can improve the system I'm all for it.

So you do acknowledge there is a serious problem, but you claim it cannot be improved ? I can't improve any system or hold politicians to account, only society can push for that, but I don't agree it cannot be improved or should not be.

Silentcorner

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Only a very ignorant few have claimed she is definitely a liar. It is the other opposing side which is more toxic in their castigating. Most people who are tackling the #IBelieveHer brigade are tackling them on the basis that they are suggesting that she definitely is telling the truth, PJ and Golding are definitely rapists and the justice system is definitely deeply flawed and biased.

A "not proven guilty" (essentially what a verdict of not guilty is anyway given that you walk into court an innocent man) won't increase the conviction rate at all.

Good stuff...some good points....

I disagree with you about the Not Proven option...but what does it matter...they are only suggestions and this is a fairly powerless online forum...