New R&A Rules from 1/1/19

PhuckHugh2

They are guaranteed to ease up on this rule the top players are having their say and they will be listened to imo. That one last night was even worse than Li's. Farcical stuff.

HighLine

This is turning into a mess for them.

https://twitter.com/USGA_PR/status/1091791654590271488

First Up

A silly and unecessary rule. It might even slow play further as the penalty doesn't apply if, after being lined up by the caddy, the player steps away and then resumes their stance.

HighLine

First Up wrote: »

A silly and unecessary rule. It might even slow play further as the penalty doesn't apply if, after being lined up by the caddy, the player steps away and then resumes their stance.

That's only the case for on the putting green. Fr all other shots, according to the new rule, you can not save yourself being penalized by stepping away.

I think this will be changed.

GreeBo

it's easy to spot when a caddy is lining someone up. None of the recent scenarios were like this. The rulings have made the game appear silly which is exactly what the changes were designed to avoid.

First Up

GreeBo wrote:

it's easy to spot when a caddy is lining someone up. None of the recent scenarios were like this. The rulings have made the game appear silly which is exactly what the changes were designed to avoid.

Will players call this on each other when there is no rules official or camera around?

slave1

Problem here is a rule designed for the Ladies game is being enforced in the Men's game where it is simple not an issue

First Up

slave1 wrote:

Problem here is a rule designed for the Ladies game is being enforced in the Men's game where it is simple not an issue

Agree

GreeBo

slave1 wrote: »

Problem here is a rule designed for the Ladies game is being enforced in the Men's game where it is simple not an issue

disagree.
Same game so same rules.
Problem is it's a bad rule.

The rule should just state that the caddy can't assist in aiming, by trying to be so prescriptive they have backed themselves into a corner.

First Up

GreeBo wrote:

disagree. Same game so same rules. Problem is it's a bad rule.

But it only arose as an issue because it is widespread in the ladies game.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

But it only arose as an issue because it is widespread in the ladies game.

Maybe so... but so what?
The men shouldn't be allowed do it either

First Up

GreeBo wrote:

Maybe so... but so what? The men shouldn't be allowed do it either

The difference is that some of the ladies' caddies take several minutes lining them up, whereas Li's caddy lingered about one second after he took his stance - if even that.

A bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss. It should be about materially helping the player, not miliseconds.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

The difference is that some of the ladies' caddies take several minutes lining them up, whereas Li's caddy lingered about one second after he took his stance - if even that.

A bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss. It should be about materially helping the player, not miliseconds.

Oh i fully disagree with all the rulings that have been made on this so far, but the gender is irrelevant to the discussion imo so i don't see it as "The difference"?

It would have been just as wrong for inbee or someone else to get penalised in those circumstances.

First Up

GreeBo wrote:

Oh i fully disagree with all the rulings that have been made on this so far, but the gender is irrelevant to the discussion imo so i don't see it as "The difference"?

The difference is between caddies materially helping line up a shot and caddies standing close to the ball/player while judging distance and wind. Yes, the same rule should apply but it should be about what they are doing.

Russman

I don’t think anyone is suggesting the men be allowed to do it but not the ladies, it’s a badly worded rule that was introduced because it’s such an issue on the LPGA Tour.

But, it is still a rule. I only saw the McCarthy incident once, so another viewing might change my mind, but I actually disagree with them cancelling the penalty there. It looked to me like he could just as easily hit the shot as back away and retake his stance. Harsh and obviously against the consensus, but the rule says you can’t save yourself from penalty if not on the green. It’s purely a bad habit from the caddie that caused it imo.

I’ve a little more sympathy for Li. That was a little greyer and purely a timing issue. They need to define “begin taking his stance” tbh.

At this point, with two high profile incidents, anyone caught out by it now on tour really has only themselves to blame.

Totally agree it’s a bad rule though. How many times have we all stood behind our partner in a four ball, foresomes, team event, scramble etc. just before they pull the trigger ? Even if we’re not lining them up, we’ve all done it and I think it’ll be harder for amateur club players to avoid an accidental penalty than professional caddies.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is suggesting the men be allowed to do it but not the ladies, it’s a badly worded rule that was introduced because it’s such an issue on the LPGA Tour.

But, it is still a rule. I only saw the McCarthy incident once, so another viewing might change my mind, but I actually disagree with them cancelling the penalty there. It looked to me like he could just as easily hit the shot as back away and retake his stance. Harsh and obviously against the consensus, but the rule says you can’t save yourself from penalty if not on the green. It’s purely a bad habit from the caddie that caused it imo.

I’ve a little more sympathy for Li. That was a little greyer and purely a timing issue. They need to define “begin taking his stance” tbh.

At this point, with two high profile incidents, anyone caught out by it now on tour really has only themselves to blame.

Totally agree it’s a bad rule though. How many times have we all stood behind our partner in a four ball, foresomes, team event, scramble etc. just before they pull the trigger ? Even if we’re not lining them up, we’ve all done it and I think it’ll be harder for amateur club players to avoid an accidental penalty than professional caddies.

They should word it the same way they word all the other rules.
For example, "you cant test the green" or "you cannot improve your stance".

This rule should say that you cannot get assistance with alignment.
Instead they got into the weeds and we are where we are.

The player should be the sole judge of whether or not they are receiving assistance on alignment not base it on complicated timing rules.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

The difference is between caddies materially helping line up a shot and caddies standing close to the ball/player while judging distance and wind. Yes, the same rule should apply but it should be about what they are doing.

Yeah, but thats just two different violations of the same new rule.
The rule is the problem, nothing else.

First Up

GreeBo wrote:

This rule should say that you cannot get assistance with alignment. Instead they got into the weeds and we are where we are.

Agreed; that's all it needs to say. It shouldn't be used to stop a caddy doing his job on distance, wind, club selection etc.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

They should word it the same way they word all the other rules.
For example, "you cant test the green" or "you cannot improve your stance".

This rule should say that you cannot get assistance with alignment.
Instead they got into the weeds and we are where we are.

The player should be the sole judge of whether or not they are receiving assistance on alignment not base it on complicated timing rules.

I see what you're saying, but I think they specifically only wanted to ban the practice of the caddy standing behind a lining up the player (as we see a lot on the LPGA).
Assistance with alignment could cover almost anything - walking up to the shot and the caddy says "now, make sure you remember what you're working on and get your shoulders pointing at that camera tower behind the green......" I think the last thing they need to do is open up another subjective / grey area like "what's advice ?"

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

I see what you're saying, but I think they specifically only wanted to ban the practice of the caddy standing behind a lining up the player (as we see a lot on the LPGA).
Assistance with alignment could cover almost anything - walking up to the shot and the caddy says "now, make sure you remember what you're working on and get your shoulders pointing at that camera tower behind the green......" I think the last thing they need to do is open up another subjective / grey area like "what's advice ?"

Yeah I see your point, but I think everyone knows what they are trying to stop and anyone who fights a penalty isn't going to look very well amongst their peers.

"A player cannot receive assistance in lining up their shot" Should cover it?

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah I see your point, but I think everyone knows what they are trying to stop and anyone who fights a penalty isn't going to look very well amongst their peers.

"A player cannot receive assistance in lining up their shot" Should cover it?

That might do it alright. You'd think with the time they spent coming up with the new rules, someone might have had a grasp of the potential pitfalls.

Did a rule like this even need to be in the rules of golf ? Its almost exclusively an issue for the Tours, could they not have had it as a condition of entry into their events ?

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah I see your point, but I think everyone knows what they are trying to stop and anyone who fights a penalty isn't going to look very well amongst their peers.

"A player cannot receive assistance in lining up their shot" Should cover it?

would be a bad rule IMO.

How many blind holes have you played. A hell of a lot I bet.

Point of example, the Old course at St Andrews (as some of my fellow boardsies shall soon find out ) is full of shots where you have no idea where to hit the ball. "See the steeple over there, aim left of that". Or the fella up at brow of the hill who gives you a line to play for over his head (before moving out of your way of course). There is just to many variables where getting a line is no big deal but also very necessary, and they don't always necessarily assist beyond a basic general direction.

First Up

Seve OB wrote:

Point of example, the Old course at St Andrews (as some of my fellow boardsies shall soon find out ) is full of shots where you have no idea where to hit the ball. "See the steeple over there, aim left of that". Or the fella up at brow of the hill who gives you a line to play for over his head (before moving out of your way of course). There is just to many variables where getting a line is no big deal but also very necessary, and they don't always necessarily assist beyond a basic general direction.

That's still allowed. Giving or suggesting a line is OK; standing behind to ensure he's taking it is not.

Seve OB

First Up wrote: »

That's still allowed. Giving or suggesting a line is OK; standing behind to ensure he's taking it is not.

I know that

My comment was aimed at what Greebo is suggesting the rule should have been

First Up

Greebo's suggestion is fine. Advice on a line is not assistance with lining it up.

But this discussion illustrates the scope for confusion.

Seve OB

First Up wrote: »

Greebo's suggestion is fine. Advice on a line is not assistance with lining it up.

But this discussion illustrates the scope for confusion.

we'll agree to disagree

First Up

Seve OB wrote:

we'll agree to disagree

Interesting times ahead.

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

would be a bad rule IMO.

How many blind holes have you played. A hell of a lot I bet.

Point of example, the Old course at St Andrews (as some of my fellow boardsies shall soon find out ) is full of shots where you have no idea where to hit the ball. "See the steeple over there, aim left of that". Or the fella up at brow of the hill who gives you a line to play for over his head (before moving out of your way of course). There is just to many variables where getting a line is no big deal but also very necessary, and they don't always necessarily assist beyond a basic general direction.

I think you are mixing advice with assistance.
Think of it like an army assault course, I can advise you how to get over the wall, but I'm not going to assist you.

/edit FirstUp already made same point.

HighLine

Clarification has just been released on the Caddy lining up fiasco. Thankfully the distinction between backing away from a shot on a green versus backing away anywhere else has gone.

https://twitter.com/JasonSobelTAN/status/1093198858740551680

slave1

Well there you go, they got it wrong and (hopefully) fixed it