New R&A Rules from 1/1/19

kennethrhcp · 29-01-2019 2:54pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Open to correction, but I dont think your partner every could? Rule 14-2b
YOur opposition could & still can, but your partner cant.
Was 2 stroke penalty for the player if partner breaches this rule.

pretty sure they were ok to line each other up but couldn't stand behind the line once his/her partner started making the putting stroke?

Seve OB · 29-01-2019 3:22pm

I can see trouble here, not for the pro's but for us amateurs.

Who hasn't (I ask hasn't because I bet everyone has and I bet will continue to do so) stood behind your partner, teammate, playing partner, opposition whoever, whilst they are taking a stroke? Not however to line them up, but rather because it is the best place to stand in order to keep your eye on their ball especially when you might be playing in poor light or glaring sun

Seve OB · 29-01-2019 3:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Open to correction, but I dont think your partner every could? Rule 14-2b
YOur opposition could & still can, but your partner cant.
Was 2 stroke penalty for the player if partner breaches this rule.

So I'm on the putting green and have a similar line of putt to my opposition, be it in stroke play or match play and you are saying it is fine for me to line myself up behind them while they take their shot?

I'm not sure that is or ever has been allowed? Sure don't we always see the pros get close, but not in line, and once the stroke is made, see them jump in on the line to watch the putt move

paulos53 · 29-01-2019 3:46pm

Seve OB wrote: »

So I'm on the putting green and have a similar line of putt to my opposition, be it in stroke play or match play and you are saying it is fine for me to line myself up behind them while they take their shot?

I'm not sure that is or ever has been allowed? Sure don't we always see the pros get close, but not in line, and once the stroke is made, see them jump in on the line to watch the putt move

I am not certain about the new rule book but it was not against the rules last year. However it was mentioned in the Etiquette section as something that you should not do.

Johnny_Fontane · 29-01-2019 4:14pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No wind and pin type a significant influence on choice.

If wind is in face, you simply have to take flag out.

I play links and we played in a 2/3 club wind a couple of weeks ago, flag never came out. I know what you are getting at with a flag bent over, but havent seen it yet. As for pin type, well, I can't comment on that, nor can any amateur golfer, because, well, all flags imho are roughly the same.

Again, I'd implore everyone to try it for a whole round. Leave your bias and experience at the door!

slave1 · 29-01-2019 4:46pm

Seve OB wrote: »

So I'm on the putting green and have a similar line of putt to my opposition, be it in stroke play or match play and you are saying it is fine for me to line myself up behind them while they take their shot?

I'm not sure that is or ever has been allowed? Sure don't we always see the pros get close, but not in line, and once the stroke is made, see them jump in on the line to watch the putt move

paulos53 wrote: »

I am not certain about the new rule book but it was not against the rules last year. However it was mentioned in the Etiquette section as something that you should not do.

Yeah, that's my recollection but I've recycled the old rule book now

First Up · 29-01-2019 4:47pm

Not from what I've heard. Direct behind is how I heard a rules official explain it.

And when asked if that put you in an awkward position the reply was "tough".

GreeBo · 29-01-2019 5:06pm

paulos53 wrote: »

I am not certain about the new rule book but it was not against the rules last year. However it was mentioned in the Etiquette section as something that you should not do.

Its only your "team" that cant do it, opposition are free to, though you could of course ask them to move.

Seve OB · 29-01-2019 5:21pm

So old rules say that I'm free to watch from behind on a direct line anyones (as long as they are not a team member/caddy) putt even if it may help me read the green?

And this has not changed in new rules? or has it?

slave1 · 29-01-2019 5:46pm

GreeBo wrote: »

...opposition are free to, though you could of course ask them to move.

So they're not free to do so then if you can ask them to move

idle · 29-01-2019 6:35pm

paulos53 wrote: »

I am not certain about the new rule book but it was not against the rules last year. However it was mentioned in the Etiquette section as something that you should not do.

Has it not always been the case that an oppponent can not stand directly behind the putter but can move in to see the putt once the stroke has been made, as seen on TV?

First Up · 29-01-2019 6:46pm

slave1 wrote:

So they're not free to do so then if you can ask them to move

They are unless you ask them not to.

Golfgraffix · 29-01-2019 8:03pm

HighLine wrote: »

No, you don't play the ball from the bunker. Grass face is outside the bunker so your relief is for the "general area".

So you drop it, if it rolls into the bunker, you drop it again. Then after rolling into the bunker a second time, you get to place it. If you still can't place it without it rolling, you move to the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the ball will be at rest after placing. (If it's a big, steep grass face, this point could be several meters away)

Where did you find this ruling. I asked the GUI for clarification a few weeks back and they couldn’t give a decision. I was asking about reverted faces in particular

HighLine · 29-01-2019 8:41pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Where did you find this ruling. I asked the GUI for clarification a few weeks back and they couldn’t give a decision. I was asking about reverted faces in particular

I was referring to the grass face.. which is not part of the bunker hazard. (Ruling in Jimmy Bruen circa 4 years ago)

With regards to the revetted bunker face, perhaps ask the R&A rather than the GUI.... I would be fairy sure they are treated the same as grass however.

Golfgraffix · 29-01-2019 8:49pm

HighLine wrote: »

I was referring to the grass face.. which is not part of the bunker hazard. (Ruling in Jimmy Bruen circa 4 years ago)

With regards to the revetted bunker face, perhaps ask the R&A rather than the GUI.... I would be fairy sure they are treated the same as grass however.

Revetted face is a general area. But I can’t find the wording where it states you can drop further than one club

idle · 29-01-2019 8:53pm

HighLine wrote: »

I was referring to the grass face.. which is not part of the bunker hazard. (Ruling in Jimmy Bruen circa 4 years ago)

With regards to the revetted bunker face, perhaps ask the R&A rather than the GUI.... I would be fairy sure they are treated the same as grass however.

Rule 12.1. The revetted face is not considered part of the bunker

idle · 29-01-2019 11:47pm

HighLine wrote: »

I was referring to the grass face.. which is not part of the bunker hazard. (Ruling in Jimmy Bruen circa 4 years ago)

With regards to the revetted bunker face, perhaps ask the R&A rather than the GUI.... I would be fairy sure they are treated the same as grass however.

There’s a diagram in the new players rules edition showing a ball in the revetted face of a bunker and it states that the ball is not in the bunker so it would seem it can be treated the same as a grass face

I had a look through the rules there and I’m none the wiser. The only thing I could find is that if a ball replaced doesn’t stay at rest then it’s replaced on the nearest spot not nearer the hole where it will stay at rest.

This would likely be the edge of the bunker leaving you with a baseball swing or a left handed swing (for this scenario).

One for John Paramor I reckon

29-01-2019 11:55pm

HighLine wrote: »

No, you don't play the ball from the bunker. Grass face is outside the bunker so your relief is for the "general area".

So you drop it, if it rolls into the bunker, you drop it again. Then after rolling into the bunker a second time, you get to place it. If you still can't place it without it rolling, you move to the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the ball will be at rest after placing. (If it's a big, steep grass face, this point could be several meters away)

Now I know this would probably never come up but what happens if you have the sea/lake behind you and you cant place a ball for (as it keeps rolling in) and you can't go backwards

HighLine · 29-01-2019 11:59pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Revetted face is a general area. But I can’t find the wording where it states you can drop further than one club

You can only drop within 1 club length. The scenario I described above however is when after being dropped twice,a player must place the ball. And if the ball will not place on the spot, i.e. it rolls into the bunker, then you get to find the nearest point of relief, where the ball will remain at rest after being replaced.

14-2e

What to Do If Replaced Ball Does Not Stay on Original Spot
If the player tries to replace a ball but it does not stay on its original spot, the player must try a second time.

If the ball again does not stay on that spot, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot where the ball will stay at rest, but with these limits depending on where the original spot is located:

The spot must not be nearer the hole.
Original Spot in General Area. The nearest spot must be in the general area.
Original Spot in Bunker or Penalty Area. The nearest spot must be either in the same bunker or in the same penalty area.
Original Spot on Putting Green. The nearest spot must be either on the putting green or in the general area.

slave1 · 30-01-2019 10:48am

If a ball is buried in the grass face of a bunker (and we all agree this is not in the bunker as per the rules) then it should be dropped at the nearest point of relief....
Surely the nearest point of relief (in the first instance) would be outside the bunker as to try and drop a ball into a face would be silly?

HighLine · 30-01-2019 10:57am

slave1 wrote: »

If a ball is buried in the grass face of a bunker (and we all agree this is not in the bunker as per the rules) then it should be dropped at the nearest point of relief....
Surely the nearest point of relief (in the first instance) would be outside the bunker as to try and drop a ball into a face would be silly?

Honestly I think the wording of the rule is flawed. There is no mention of the "nearest point of relief". All other situations in the Abnormal Course Conditions Rule (Rule 16), they specifically state the nearest point of relief but not so for an embedded ball.

So if, for example, a ball is plugged just marginally outside the bunker into a grass/rivetted face... then how can your reference point be "right behind the ball".

Rule 16-3(b)

b
Relief for Embedded Ball
When a player’s ball is embedded in the general area and relief is allowed under Rule 16.3a, the player may take free relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in this relief area (see Rule 14.3):

Reference Point: The spot right behind where the ball is embedded.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length, but with these limits:
Limits on Location of Relief Area:
Must be in the general area, and
Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point.

idle · 30-01-2019 1:34pm

I just emailed the scenario to the R&A there so we’ll see what they come back with

GreeBo · 31-01-2019 8:53am

slave1 wrote: »

So they're not free to do so then if you can ask them to move

They are, there is nothing in the rules that says they cannot stand there.
I said you can ask them, they dont have to move though.

You can *ask* anyone to do anything, doesnt mean they are going to do it!

GreeBo · 31-01-2019 8:55am

slave1 wrote: »

If a ball is buried in the grass face of a bunker (and we all agree this is not in the bunker as per the rules) then it should be dropped at the nearest point of relief....
Surely the nearest point of relief (in the first instance) would be outside the bunker as to try and drop a ball into a face would be silly?

Relief is from the embedded ball, not the bunker, so why is the nearest point not in the bunker?
Though you probably cant drop into a hazard I guess.

Golfgraffix · 31-01-2019 9:50am

GreeBo wrote: »

Relief is from the embedded ball, not the bunker, so why is the nearest point not in the bunker?
Though you probably cant drop into a hazard I guess.

The embedded rule is, when a player’s ball is embedded in the general area and relief is allowed under Rule 16.3a, the player may take free relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in this relief area (Rule 14.3):

The definition of the General Area is;

The area of the course that covers all of the course except for the other four defined areas:
The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole he or she is playing,
All penalty areas,
All bunkers,
The putting green of the hole the player is playing.

The general area includes: All teeing locations on the course other than the teeing area, and All wrong greens.

My understanding is that the revetted face is not part of the bunker and is not part of any of the 4 areas listed above so it must be part of the General Area and as such free relief is allowed.

So if relief is allowed where is it to be taken ? before the embedded rule change it was a penalty drop so you could go back in line with the point of entry and flag or take two club lengths, which in most cases would not require dropping in the bunker. As this is now a non-penalty drop the options change to the Relief Area, which is defined as;

Reference Point: The spot right behind where the ball is embedded.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length, but with these limits:
Must be in the general area, and
Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point.

As the drop must be in the general area it can’t be dropped in the bunker. The issue I see is that if its only one club length and no nearer the hole there, in many cases will be no way of dropping within these rules. Case in hand is the 13th hole at where I play where the revetted face is 26 metres long.

slave1 · 31-01-2019 11:48am

We also have to be practical, on severe revetted faces it is simply not possible or safe to drop in the prescribed manner onto same revetted face so logic would dictate dropping outside the bunker area (I know the grass face of a bunker is not considered part of the bunker hazard but you know what I mean)...

slave1 · 31-01-2019 11:51am

In your case Golfgraffix if you were embedded in the centre of that face surely your drop would be behind the bunker ( assuming face greenside ) as that’s bound to be closer than moving left or right

GreeBo · 31-01-2019 12:18pm

slave1 wrote: »

In your case Golfgraffix if you were embedded in the centre of that face surely your drop would be behind the bunker ( assuming face greenside ) as that’s bound to be closer than moving left or right

Reference Point: The spot right behind where the ball is embedded.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length

The above would preclude that.

Golfgraffix · 31-01-2019 2:04pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Reference Point: The spot right behind where the ball is embedded.
Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length

The above would preclude that.

That was my question, so I would imagine that the earloier post for decision 14.2 stands

What to Do If Replaced Ball Does Not Stay on Original Spot
If the player tries to replace a ball but it does not stay on its original spot, the player must try a second time.

If the ball again does not stay on that spot, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot where the ball will stay at rest, but with these limits depending on where the original spot is located:

The spot must not be nearer the hole.
Original Spot in General Area. The nearest spot must be in the general area.
Original Spot in Bunker or Penalty Area. The nearest spot must be either in the same bunker or in the same penalty area.
Original Spot on Putting Green. The nearest spot must be either on the putting green or in the general area.

HighLine · 02-02-2019 10:14am

This has raised its head already last night. Like I said below, it seems strange that a player can fall foul of this rule even after he backs away from the shot before re-taking up his address. Rules are rules, some will learn the hard way. This is going to be important for inter-club team (fourball/foursomes) events.

https://twitter.com/bschneid117/status/1091491560502509568

HighLine wrote: »

Yeah I agree that regarding the LPGA, having the caddies line up every shot looked ridiculous, so glad the rule came in to stop that.

One element of the rule which I think is strange/silly is the distinction between putting and all other shots. So for example, if Haotong Li above had walked away and then restarted the process of addressing the ball when the caddy was not there, there would be no penalty.

But.. for all other shots... even if the player backs away, goes back to the bag and then subsequently plays the shot when the caddy is not there, it is still a general penalty (2 strokes).

New R&A Rules from 1/1/19

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