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Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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    #2372
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    The protesters will be gunning for Gilroy now!
    Wtf!! Are any of these lads married? It's like my early teens with this crew.

    But but but...these protesters surely don't believe anything they read in the Daily Mail...

    Anyway I'm pretty sure this was actually in the trial so I'm not sure why it is suddenly breaking news.


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    #2373
    MaybeMaybe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭MaybeMaybe


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I'd love to know what the Christian lads in the team think of these idiots.

    Why? What difference does their opinion make?


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    #2374
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I'd love to know what the Christian lads in the team think of these idiots.

    Presumably they'll show them forgiveness if they're upset?


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    #2375
    hogandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭hogandrew


    foxyladyxx wrote: »
    Not a hope in hell will Jackson or Olding play for Ulster or Ireland again. Sponsors would pull out,.

    Sponsors might pull out and they will most likely take an initial financial hit but they could take as big/bigger hit by not keeping them. Jackson and olding are 2 very exciting players to watch and Jackson in particular gets the best out of the players outside of him. I can't speak for anyone but myself but if Ulster are playing a good brand of rugby I am far more inclined to watch them every week.

    Added to that the money Ulster would need to replace an international level 10 and top class versatile back would be a big factor too. I can't see how they would end their contract early either without buying out the contract.


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    #2376
    Brewster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    http://www.aocsolicitors.ie/irfu-ulster-rugby-must-comply-with-employment-law-not-public-opinion/

    This is worth a read, written by a solicitor, it basically makes the points some of us have made, but in a more legalistic way!


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    #2377
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    hogandrew wrote: »
    Sponsors might pull out and they will most likely take an initial financial hit but they could take as big/bigger hit by not keeping them. Jackson and olding are 2 very exciting players to watch and Jackson in particular gets the best out of the players outside of him. I can't speak for anyone but myself but if Ulster are playing a good brand of rugby I am far more inclined to watch them every week.

    Added to that the money Ulster would need to replace an international level 10 and top class versatile back would be a big factor too. I can't see how they would end their contract early either without buying out the contract.

    Suspect if Ulster can get back to winning with Jacko and Olding sponsors wont much care. Getting rid of the two boys and losing every week certainly wont attract sponsors.


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    #2378
    Brewster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    bilston wrote: »
    Presumably they'll show them forgiveness if they're upset?

    It is particularly relevant being Easter Sunday. Of course, some of the Ulster team will be very frustrated, upset and even angry with the lads. I also know, based on Christian teachings, that many would be inclined to give them a second chance.


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    #2379
    Swan Curry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Swan Curry


    lol uafc has decided this is a republican plot


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    #2380
    damianmcr
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭damianmcr


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I'd love to know what the Christian lads in the team think of these idiots.
    I'd say they are all good mates.

    A good Christian forgives.


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    #2381
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I wonder what other countries would have an automatic visa disqualification for anyone charged but not found guilty for persons charged with serious crimes.

    If Jackson won't be able to travel to Japan (for example) any argument for Ireland to keep Jackson would be weakened.

    I also wonder if the fact that Best and Henderson didn't eventually give character evidence in the case indicates that they decided not to back Jackson and Olding or if the defense eventually decided jot to back them.


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    #2382
    torqtorq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭torqtorq


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    I wonder what other countries would have an automatic visa disqualification for anyone charged but not found guilty for persons charged with serious crimes.

    If Jackson won't be able to travel to Japan (for example) any argument for Ireland to keep Jackson would be weakened.

    I also wonder if the fact that Best and Henderson didn't eventually give character evidence in the case indicates that they decided not to back Jackson and Olding or if the defense eventually decided jot to back them.

    They were not called as they were not required.


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    #2383
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Swan Curry wrote: »
    lol uafc has decided this is a republican plot

    Haven't seen that anywhere yet.


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    #2384
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    It is a tough situation if they have a year left. Irfu have to be careful as an employer and allowing an employee to work.
    Then there is the complicated issue of 2 different territories. Maybe employment law is similar within the eu.
    Will the boys hold tough for a pay out?


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    #2385
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I'd love to know what the Christian lads in the team think of these idiots.

    I wonder what the non Christians think. I wonder what the sponsors think. I wonder what my mother's next door neighbour thinks. I wonder what my milkman thinks. In other words who gives a shìte what others think?
    The 2 lads have been acquitted of all charges but they're names are mud now so it seems more and more likely that their careers in ireland are finished.


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    #2386
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    I wonder what other countries would have an automatic visa disqualification for anyone charged but not found guilty for persons charged with serious crimes.

    If Jackson won't be able to travel to Japan (for example) any argument for Ireland to keep Jackson would be weakened.

    I also wonder if the fact that Best and Henderson didn't eventually give character evidence in the case indicates that they decided not to back Jackson and Olding or if the defense eventually decided jot to back them.

    No country will ban people for a not guilty verdict.
    IRFU want to be careful here you cant just ban them from playing with no cause.
    The 2 boys could make things very difficult. Best to just pick on merit and face down the mob.


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    #2387
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    RuMan wrote: »
    No country will ban people for a not guilty verdict.
    IRFU want to be careful here you cant just ban them from playing with no cause.
    The 2 boys could make things very difficult. Best to just pick on merit and face down the mob.

    They won't be banning them. They just buy out their contracts or else let them run down and don't offer new ones. IRFU are under no obligation to employ anyone.
    Especially if sponsors are putting pressure on.

    The texts put a very different slant on this.


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    #2388
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    They won't be banning them. They just buy out their contracts or else let them run down and don't offer new ones. IRFU are under no obligation to employ anyone.
    Especially if sponsors are putting pressure on.

    The texts put a very different slant on this.

    No obligation to accept buy out. IRFU only job is to employ best available players on the field. Havent seen a better alternative to Jacko for 10 at Ulster.


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    #2389
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    RuMan wrote: »
    No obligation to accept buy out. IRFU only job is to employ best available players on the field. Havent seen a better alternative to Jacko for 10 at Ulster.

    Jackson and Olding could collect their wages every week and IRFU could tell Ulster not to pick them and there is nothing they can do about that.

    If they want to get back playing and are offered a way out they will take it IMO.

    IRFU have a wider obligation here too as a national sporting body and sponsors are critical in paying for that. This isn't about the best 10 Ulster can pick.

    If you think this will just go away your mistaken.


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    #2390
    hogandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭hogandrew


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    Jackson and Olding could collect their wages every week and IRFU could tell Ulster not to pick them and there is nothing they can do about that.

    If they want to get back playing and are offered a way out they will take it IMO.

    IRFU have a wider obligation here too as a national sporting body and sponsors are critical in paying for that. This isn't about the best 10 Ulster can pick.

    If you think this will just go away your mistaken.

    Pretty sure not picking them on the basis of that would be grounds for unfair dismissal


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    #2391
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    hogandrew wrote: »
    Pretty sure not picking them on the basis of that would be grounds for unfair dismissal

    Paying them every week but not picking them. Nothing they can do. Unfair dismissal? They would have to be sacked first.


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    #2392
    damianmcr
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭damianmcr


    I'd say it would just go away. Most things do.

    What about this striker at Waterford? Did time for sexual assault.

    The Welsh(?) player in the EPL.


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    #2393
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    RuMan wrote: »
    No country will ban people for a not guilty verdict.
    IRFU want to be careful here you cant just ban them from playing with no cause.
    The 2 boys could make things very difficult. Best to just pick on merit and face down the mob.

    I'm not sure if the guys will want to leave as it could be seen as some sort of admission of guilt or wrong doing.


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    #2394
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    damianmcr wrote: »
    I'd say it would just go away. Most things do.

    What about this striker at Waterford? Did time for sexual assault.

    The Welsh(?) player in the EPL.

    The profile of this one is what is grabbing the media attention. There is a lot of eyes on IRFU. Then optics would be very different if those WhatsApp messages didn't happen.

    I believe they should be able to play. Justice has run it's course. But this is much bigger now. If the contracts only ran til may 2018 they would be let run down and they wouldn't be offered a new one.


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    #2395
    hogandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭hogandrew


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    Paying them every week but not picking them. Nothing they can do. Unfair dismissal? They would have to be sacked first.

    It's possibly worded as constructive dismissal or something like that. It would be a change from what they were hired to do. I'm not sure of the exact law but almost certain an employer can be sued for unfair dismissal without actually sacking someone. Unless there is a breach of contract in some way or the lads decide it's easiest.

    Not selecting them for Ireland would probably be a lot easier due to there being a number of outhalves at a high level


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    #2396
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    hogandrew wrote: »
    It's possibly worded as constructive dismissal or something like that. It would be a change from what they were hired to do. I'm not sure of the exact law but almost certain an employer can be sued for unfair dismissal without actually sacking someone. Unless there is a breach of contract in some way or the lads decide it's easiest.

    Not selecting them for Ireland would probably be a lot easier due to there being a number of outhalves at a high level

    Based on the code the conduct in contracts they can be suspended. It's not straightforward though. I get what you are saying though.


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    #2397
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    hogandrew wrote: »
    It's possibly worded as constructive dismissal or something like that. It would be a change from what they were hired to do. I'm not sure of the exact law but almost certain an employer can be sued for unfair dismissal without actually sacking someone. Unless there is a breach of contract in some way or the lads decide it's easiest.

    Not selecting them for Ireland would probably be a lot easier due to there being a number of outhalves at a high level

    Various situations emerge in all sports where a better player is not selected for an extended period of time (falling out with the coach, etc); has any such case ever gone to court under the terms you raise?


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    #2398
    hogandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭hogandrew


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Various situations emerge in all sports where a better player is not selected for an extended period of time (falling out with the coach, etc); has any such case ever gone to court under the terms you raise?

    I've no idea but how many would have had a governing body tell a coach not to pick them? If for arguments sake McPhillips is the starting 10 and playing poor, gets injured or whatever you will have the coached questioned on Jackson repeatedly. It's not like it's just one person who would need to deny he isn't allowed be picked. You would need everyone involved to keep the matter to themselves. If it's a case that a coach doesn't want to pick him I can't see a problem


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    #2399
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    hogandrew wrote: »
    I've no idea but how many would have had a governing body tell a coach not to pick them? If for arguments sake McPhillips is the starting 10 and playing poor, gets injured or whatever you will have the coached questioned on Jackson repeatedly. It's not like it's just one person who would need to deny he isn't allowed be picked. You would need everyone involved to keep the matter to themselves. If it's a case that a coach doesn't want to pick him I can't see a problem

    I'm sure it's happened. A player falls afoul of a chairman, for example, who then tells the coach not to select them. I can't imagine that this hasn't happened in Italian soccer.


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    #2400
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,609 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    The two lads would be insane to try and take any sort of legal action against the IRFU.

    The last thing they'll want after all of this is to cause even more commotion by suing their team/governing body. Very few teams in Europe would want to touch them if that's the route they pursue.

    If it's a case that Ulster/IRFU don't want them to play I think the best case for both sides would be some form of early release. I can't see there being any arguments over it if there is in fact interest from other teams in taking them on.


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    #2401
    hogandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭hogandrew


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    I'm sure it's happened. A player falls afoul of a chairman, for example, who then tells the coach not to select them. I can't imagine that this hasn't happened in Italian soccer.

    Ur probably right but I'd say any compensation comes with a NDA anyway so we'd be unlikely to hear it. Anyway it's very much a hypothetical situation for the moment


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