Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

mfceiling

So PJ and SO move on and start again.

What then for the IRFU? Some posters here saying we need change. Is it not change as a society or because of the "actions" of 2 players are we going to try and involve rugby in this some way?
Is the game too macho and boorish? Are the players viewed as privileged? Is it perceived to be a sport for the toffs and middle classes? What more can the sport do to appeal to women? We already have female officials and the last match I was at seemed to have a huge amount of female support.
2 players haven't been charged with any crime and now we're looking at the sport under a microscope to see what we're doing wrong.
Maybe it's time to look at what we're doing right and to take stock of that.

bilston

Social media is a huge influence these days. There is a lot of factually incorrect stuff and outright lies being tweeted that is influencing people (on all sides). There is also a lot stuff out there from people who dont have a clue what they're talking about which is pretty infuriating.

At this point if I were Jackson or Olding I'd be on the first plane out of here.

Whatever happens to Jackson and Olding this sorry state of affairs needs to be a lesson to all young sportsmen (and people in the public eye in general).

Locke_Lamora

Tbh I think I'd be less likely to attend an Ulster match if they don't come back - but that's mostly because I'm fed up wth absolutely everything possible going wrong.

But I do think they should be allowed to come back. The case has been decided (correctly imo) and in deciding if they should be allowed to stay, I don't think we should be entitled to speculate otherwise. Basically we are only judging them on their misogynistic behaviour (the texts) and not their bedroom antics.

The texts were a real letdown for me as I'm a huge critic of 'rugby culture' (quit my rugby team in the end) and a huge proponent for the advancement of women's rights. They were two of my favourite players and to see them acting like this was hurtful to say the least. However, Jackson especially seems to be taking flak for messages he did not actually send, and when I look closely at the messages that were attributed to each person, I don't think their career should be considered irredeemable. IMO an education course and a large donation to a women's rights charity (or something to that effect) before playing again should be the way forward.

MJohnston

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

Tbh I think I'd be less likely to attend an Ulster match if they don't come back - but that's mostly because I'm fed up wth absolutely everything possible going wrong.

But I do think they should be allowed to come back. The case has been decided (correctly imo) and in deciding if they should be allowed to stay, I don't think we should be entitled to speculate otherwise. Basically we are only judging them on their misogynistic behaviour (the texts) and not their bedroom antics.

The texts were a real letdown for me as I'm a huge critic of 'rugby culture' (quit my rugby team in the end) and a huge proponent for the advancement of women's rights. They were two of my favourite players and to see them acting like this was hurtful to say the least. However, Jackson especially seems to be taking flak for messages he did not actually send, and when I look closely at the messages that were attributed to each person, I don't think their career should be considered irredeemable. IMO an education course and a large donation to a women's rights charity (or something to that effect) before playing again should be the way forward.

I'd point out that it's not messages that are causing the anger. I mean, I don't want to discuss anything in detail, but for example Jackson denied that he'd even had sex with the girl at the start.

torqtorq

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd point out that it's not messages that are causing the anger. I mean, I don't want to discuss anything in detail, but for example Jackson denied that he'd even had sex with the girl at the start.

And the DNA analysis backed up his claim. Maybe that does not suit your agenda.

MJohnston

errlloyd wrote: »

I like this board, and I don't want to be ostracised. But I will say it. If you need to count a rugby fan among those voices you can count me. I won't watch Ireland with either of them playing. In my WhatsApp groups and my friends circle that sentiment is strong. It'll kill me because I live and breathe rugby, but I can't do it. A girl left their house bleeding and in tears while they laughed and joked at her expense - while at least one of them definitely knew how upset she was. 4 stories that simply cannot all be true were told to a court under oath.

There may not be enough to convict any single one of them, fine. They have their liberty. But rugby culture has to change, and pretending this never happened will not help.

You can count me in that too.

I do think there's something about male team sports that seems to create an extra level of toxicity within the playing population compared to the general population. And I'm disappointed that Ulster and Ireland seemingly haven't tackled that.

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

You can count me in that too.

I do think there's something about male team sports that seems to create an extra level of toxicity within the playing population compared to the general population. And I'm disappointed that Ulster and Ireland seemingly haven't tackled that.

It's not just sports it's any groups. Groups define an internal social structure and what is acceptable to that structure. Be it sports, or groups within a workplace - the end result is the same.

Also toxic are the groups marching on the spire and demanding justice be ignored in pursuit of vengeance.

How do you propose we tackle both?

MJohnston

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not just sports it's any groups. Groups define an internal social structure and what is acceptable to that structure. Be it sports, or groups within a workplace - the end result is the same.

Also toxic are the groups marching on the spire and demanding justice be ignored in pursuit of vengeance.

How do you propose we tackle both?

I very much disagree with your assertion, so I can't answer your question. Honestly very disappointed to encounter that kind of attitude from regular posters on this forum too.

Perhaps you didn't look too closely but what the groups marching on the Spire are talking about is demonstrating support for the accuser, and wanting change in regard to the process of rape trials (and some of that progress applies only to Northern Irish trials, but people can still support that idea internationally).

As to the idea that it's not a unique attitude to sports, perhaps not, but professional sports teams and organisations are better able to tackle a problem like this, and it is also more vital to their business that they do so.

MJohnston

torqtorq wrote: »

And the DNA analysis backed up his claim. Maybe that does not suit your agenda.

That's not how that DNA analysis works, but I won't get into it as the details are things we cannot discuss, you can read about that elsewhere. His claim was directly contradicted by Olding's messages and other witness statements too (and these were defence witnesses it should be pointed out).

Hands Like Flippers

awec wrote: »

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

What does Dave s bring to UR?

Who?

Dave shanaghan.

Can't understsndcwhy he merits xn academy place
.

launish116

Any chance we can put the trial to bed, until the IFRU make a decision on their next move.... discuss what little rugby we have left of this miserable season.

Bridge93

If you actually think that's what every person marching was demonstrating against you need to pull your head out of the sand. There were literally hundreds marching against this specific decision and ignoring the verdict of the court completely for their own crusade.

I agree the courts need amending around this and by all accounts it's coming. It's so stupidly hard to prove rape yet it's unrealistic to lower the threshold of proof. The uk has propositions for a new crime surrounding reckless regard for consent which is where I imagine the majority of rape cases fall. Hopefully something comes of that.

What I don't agree with it using a case where 4 men where found innocent as a vehicle for change by people who don't understand any part of why the verdict was reached. Why bother with a legal system? This wasn't an incorrect verdict, there are plenty. It is possible to feel sorry for her and accept the findings, too many only deal in black or white. The poisonous rhetoric being spouted on social media does nobody involved any good.

Bridge93

By complete chance I'm in the area and am heading to the A game. Will report back findings

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

I very much disagree with your assertion, so I can't answer your question. Honestly very disappointed to encounter that kind of attitude from regular posters on this forum too.

Perhaps you didn't look too closely but what the groups marching on the Spire are talking about is demonstrating support for the accuser, and wanting change in regard to the process of rape trials (and some of that progress applies only to Northern Irish trials, but people can still support that idea internationally).

As to the idea that it's not a unique attitude to sports, perhaps not, but professional sports teams and organisations are better able to tackle a problem like this, and it is also more vital to their business that they do so.

Sorry, but the marches and the online groups have gone way way beyond just support. They are throwing around accusations and even the #ibelieveher hashtag on every sign is as good as accusing people who've been found innocent of being guilty anyway.

It undermines our justice system and it's extremely misplaced anger.

By all accounts remedy the justice system, but I'm not seeing any suggestions being put forward. The one that everyone agrees with is to retain anonymity across the board and limit reporting like in the republic. How would that have changed the outcome?

And honestly you can save your outrage at me, every woman and self respecting feminist I know feel exactly the same about the marches and Twitter storm.

Former Former

MJohnston wrote: »

You can count me in that too.

I do think there's something about male team sports that seems to create an extra level of toxicity within the playing population compared to the general population. And I'm disappointed that Ulster and Ireland seemingly haven't tackled that.

Yeah and I think that's what people want from IRFU. It's not just about running Jackson and Olding outta town, it's about demonstrating that they recognize that this probably isn't isolated behaviour and trying to tackle the sort of attitude that leads to it in the first place.

It's been a bad year for the IRFU from the PR perspective. They can't mess this up too.

As a rugby fan, I want IRFU to do what's best for the sport and if that means paying out the last year of two contracts, then that's very good value.

Personally though, I don't think either player will need much persuading to move on.

jr86

Former Former wrote: »

Personally though, I don't think either player will need much persuading to move on.

I assume a potential deal with a new club could well happen on the quiet anyway in the near future? And then announce it publicly in the summer, when this trial is well out of the papers for a while?

Bridge93

I see there's another 9 Ulster lads in the u18 Irish squad? Perhaps times are indeed changing. That's a couple of productive years in a row

MJohnston

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, but the marches and the online groups have gone way way beyond just support. They are throwing around accusations and even the #ibelieveher hashtag on every sign is as good as accusing people who've been found innocent of being guilty anyway.

It undermines our justice system and it's extremely misplaced anger.

By all accounts remedy the justice system, but I'm not seeing any suggestions being put forward. The one that everyone agrees with is to retain anonymity across the board and limit reporting like in the republic. How would that have changed the outcome?

And honestly you can save your outrage at me, every woman and self respecting feminist I know feel exactly the same about the marches and Twitter storm.

I completely disagree and I think you're being deceitful (intentionally or not) in a lot of what you say, but I haven't got the mental energy to take on a whole forum of people on this one. So, you win, I'll not bother discussing this topic further.

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

I completely disagree and I think you're being deceitful (intentionally or not) in a lot of what you say, but I haven't got the mental energy to take on a whole forum of people on this one. So, you win, I'll not bother discussing this topic further.

I win? Seriously, that's what you think I'm looking for? Some kind of victory?

You nor I know with any certainty what happened in this case, I'm choosing not to make accusations because of my personal feelings because that would be making an extremely serious allegations that a jury couldn't prove from a position of ignorance.

You want to be very bloody damn certain you are informed and accurate before you call someone a rapist. Unless you were there or at least in the jury I fail to see how you and 1000s of others could be.

"You win"... ffs Jesus.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

I win? Seriously, that's what you think I'm looking for? Some kind of victory?

You nor I know with any certainty what happened in this case, I'm choosing not to make accusations because of my personal feelings because that would be making an extremely serious allegations that a jury couldn't prove from a position of ignorance.

You want to be very bloody damn certain you are informed and accurate before you call someone a rapist. Unless you were there or at least in the jury I fail to see how you and 1000s of others could be.

"You win"... ffs Jesus.

He's not taking issue with the verdicts. This is about what people are marching for. Yes there are misinformed people and the inevitable band waggoners and 'dial a protestors', but a very large proportion of people are disgusted with the process that (from a general view) means that only a tiny minority of rape trials end in a conviction.

This one has just brought these issues to the fore as well as the gruelling affect it has on everyone, not least the complainant who has to go through a level of scrutiny that would put anyone off making such a complaint in the future. I don't have any answers to this btw, but I do believe that more needs to be done to make the process less daunting.

And if we're taking straw polls of people we know into account, then my experience has been the opposite of yours. Whatever that's worth.

Teferi

The text messages have done for the lads. I suspect the IRFU will let them go for misconduct citing the messages or simply allow them to leave if they get an offer from abroad. Whatever about the verdict, the messages are damning and sporting bodies should try their best to not support sexism.

Tigerandahalf

Out of interest how did the law get access to the text messages. Did Whatsapp have to hand them over?

prawnsambo

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Out of interest how did the law get access to the text messages. Did Whatsapp have to hand them over?

I'm assuming they took their phones. WhatsApp can't provide messages, they are end to end encrypted.

Dubinusa

Can you imagine PJ lined up off a ruck waiting for the ball.
The defensive line are calling out assignments (defensive).
"Top shagger, top shagger" "spit roast spit roast".
All picked up on the refs microphone.
The lads are history. IMO.
There is no return from this.
Bad decisions, bad etiquette and lessons learned.
For young men, dont treat women like livestock. For the ladies. Do not go to a party with a group of men without your friends coming along. Alcohol, testosterone fame all the ingredients for a disaster.

mfceiling

MJohnston wrote: »

You can count me in that too.

I do think there's something about male team sports that seems to create an extra level of toxicity within the playing population compared to the general population. And I'm disappointed that Ulster and Ireland seemingly haven't tackled that.

Again you keep peddling this. What control have Ireland had over PJ and SO sending very badly worded messages?
How do you know Ulster haven't had guidance councillors speaking to the players before about behaviour and etiquette?

Are people thinking that PJ contributed more to the unsavoury texts than he did? https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/worst-night-ever-raped-full-12271869

Most of the messages were from other persons not related to Ulster Rugby. I don't think PJ plays for Ulster again, for his sake and the IRFUs, but I don't think there's anywhere near enough 'disrepute' in his single message for him to lose a contract over it.

MJohnston

mfceiling wrote: »

Again you keep peddling this. What control have Ireland had over PJ and SO sending very badly worded messages?
How do you know Ulster haven't had guidance councillors speaking to the players before about behaviour and etiquette?

I'm not peddling anything, I'm stating an opinion.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

He's not taking issue with the verdicts. This is about what people are marching for. Yes there are misinformed people and the inevitable band waggoners and 'dial a protestors', but a very large proportion of people are disgusted with the process that (from a general view) means that only a tiny minority of rape trials end in a conviction.

This one has just brought these issues to the fore as well as the gruelling affect it has on everyone, not least the complainant who has to go through a level of scrutiny that would put anyone off making such a complaint in the future. I don't have any answers to this btw, but I do believe that more needs to be done to make the process less daunting.

And if we're taking straw polls of people we know into account, then my experience has been the opposite of yours. Whatever that's worth.

People are marching under the banner of #ibelieveher. If you believe her then you believe that the defendants are rapists. Is that what you are saying?

If people want to march for court reform I'm totally in favour of that, if people have ideas let's hear them.

I don't see how protesting a verdict in a foreign court system resolves issues with our legal system. I don't see how doing it under a banner of accusation achieves anything at all.

Buer

I just keep coming back to PJ in my mind and how he appears to be the focal point for a lot of ire. Can someone explain to me what grounds the IRFU could have against him based on his text messages?

"There was a lot of spit". That's it.

Am I missing something here?

mfceiling

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm not peddling anything, I'm stating an opinion.

An opinion that is asking why Ulster or Ireland haven't done anything to tackle the kind of statements posted by the 2 lads. How do you know they haven't?