Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

I encourage anyone who wants to blame the defence to go back and watch the match again. The game was lost and lost completely at the breakdown. The defence wasn't good enough but the game was lost and put to bed by being turned over whenever Leinster decided they wanted the ball back.

I don't disagree that Kiss is potentially out of his depth, but if you want to blame someone for the weekend I'd be looking at Gibbs first and a few of the more experienced players second.

So like last week against Munster when their pack got steamrolled?

I'd be inclined to believe that Kiss is a good coach (and I know Gibbs is) but that he just isn't what Ulster need at the moment. They don't need good coaches and nice guys. They need arseh*les who will whip the place into shape. If they're good coaches on top of that then great, but the rot needs to stop and the primary concern has to be getting someone in who can do just that. Even if it means getting Ulster playing dull, unimaginative rugby or whatever.

molloyjh

prawnsambo wrote: »

Only if everybody's fit and available though. There were 15 players definitely unavailable for the Leinster match and a further two or three who also may not have been. Like Van der Merwe who hasn't played since he benched against Connacht.

And that fifteen includes nine capped internationals.

Yeah but Leinster were missing a few too. If you take the 2 full strength XVs, how many Ulster players would genuinely make it into a combined side ahead of their Leinster equivalent? Best and Henderson almost certainly. Piutau and Stockdale would make cases for inclusion too, but with guys like Lowe and Larmour in the Leinster squad that isn't quite so clear cut. Would anyone else come close?

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

So like last week against Munster when their pack got steamrolled?

I'd be inclined to believe that Kiss is a good coach (and I know Gibbs is) but that he just isn't what Ulster need at the moment. They don't need good coaches and nice guys. They need arseh*les who will whip the place into shape. If they're good coaches on top of that then great, but the rot needs to stop and the primary concern has to be getting someone in who can do just that. Even if it means getting Ulster playing dull, unimaginative rugby or whatever.

Ireland could do Ulster a big favour by beating Australia 3 - 0 this summer. If Cheika became available he would almost exactly fit your description and he did a lot of work behind the scenes with Leinster during his tenure that isn't as often attributed to him.

irishbucsfan

I agree, they need their Cheika. They need someone who can come in and build that culture.

They need Ronan O'Gara with Paul O'Connell as forwards coach. Start the campaign, start the fundraising. We can get them renamed "Robert Wilson" and "Paul Smyth" if it helps them get board approval.

prawnsambo

molloyjh wrote: »

So like last week against Munster when their pack got steamrolled?

I'd be inclined to believe that Kiss is a good coach (and I know Gibbs is) but that he just isn't what Ulster need at the moment. They don't need good coaches and nice guys. They need arseh*les who will whip the place into shape. If they're good coaches on top of that then great, but the rot needs to stop and the primary concern has to be getting someone in who can do just that. Even if it means getting Ulster playing dull, unimaginative rugby or whatever.

If it was a coaching issue, why hasn't Andy Farrell been sent up to help out? He was down in Munster for a while there when, if anything Munster were least likely of the two provinces to need help in that department.

I'm not even sure a Cheika type could help. If players aren't under presuure for their positions, it's hard to apply any sort of a stick without shooting the team in the feet.

Is it just not a case of riding out the current injury and other absentee crisis and salvage whatever can be salvaged from the season?

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah but Leinster were missing a few too. If you take the 2 full strength XVs, how many Ulster players would genuinely make it into a combined side ahead of their Leinster equivalent? Best and Henderson almost certainly. Piutau and Stockdale would make cases for inclusion too, but with guys like Lowe and Larmour in the Leinster squad that isn't quite so clear cut. Would anyone else come close?

You seem to have started out disagreeing with me and then finished by largely agreeing with me?

I'm just talking about them being competitive and beating the handicap, not necessarily winning the game. Connacht came very close with arguably a better and more settled squad.

CIARAN_BOYLE

prawnsambo wrote: »

If it was a coaching issue, why hasn't Andy Farrell been sent up to help out? He was down in Munster for a while there when, if anything Munster were least likely of the two provinces to need help in that department.

Farrell was there to help out after the Munster defense coach left and before a new one arrived. He was just there to keep things ticking over.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland could do Ulster a big favour by beating Australia 3 - 0 this summer. If Cheika became available he would almost exactly fit your description and he did a lot of work behind the scenes with Leinster during his tenure that isn't as often attributed to him.

Why would Cheika have any interest in going, though? He's familiar with Irish rugby and I'm sure he still has contacts here. There's not a huge amount to attract him to Belfast.

Post-RWC, I would imagine Ulster are likely to have lost Bowe, Trimble, Best, Henry, Payne (current situation pending), Diack, Henry and Deysel from their current squad. That's a massive amount of experience with 5 of them being in the forwards where they're already stretched. There are only so many holes that can be plugged.

There would be no pulling the wool over Cheika's eyes with respect to the outlook for the Ulster squad in the short to medium term. I can't see him wanting to go somewhere and start completely at the bottom and build from the foundations.

I don't want to be pessimistic but I imagine Ulster are going to have to go through some pain in the coming years before they see any real success. They do need someone to come in and tear it all up and start from scratch but I reckon that person is going to have about the same level of profile as Cheika did when he arrived in Dublin i.e. shag all.

prawnsambo

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Farrell was there to help out after the Munster defense coach left and before a new one arrived. He was just there to keep things ticking over.

Exactly. If there was a pressing need at Ulster, surely that's where he'd go? Maybe he will yet after the 6N, but all the changes have been player related with new signings primarily in the pack and (if rumours are true) at ten.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Why would Cheika have any interest in going, though? He's familiar with Irish rugby and I'm sure he still has contacts here. There's not a huge amount to attract him to Belfast.

Post-RWC, I would imagine Ulster are likely to have lost Bowe, Trimble, Best, Henry, Payne (current situation pending), Diack, Henry and Deysel from their current squad. That's a massive amount of experience with 5 of them being in the forwards where they're already stretched. There are only so many holes that can be plugged.

There would be no pulling the wool over Cheika's eyes with respect to the outlook for the Ulster squad in the short to medium term. I can't see him wanting to go somewhere and start completely at the bottom and build from the foundations.

I don't want to be pessimistic but I imagine Ulster are going to have to go through some pain in the coming years before they see any real success. They do need someone to come in and tear it all up and start from scratch but I reckon that person is going to have about the same level of profile as Cheika did when he arrived in Dublin i.e. shag all.

Ulster has suffered enough.

Things will get worse before they get better. I think people would accept poor results if there was effort on show and they felt there would be medium/long term rewards for it. But what we have now is poor performances, poor results and no real optimism that it's going to get better any time soon. We don't look like we're building towards anything, we just look rubbish.

Buer

prawnsambo wrote: »

Exactly. If there was a pressing need at Ulster, surely that's where he'd go? Maybe he will yet after the 6N, but all the changes have been player related with new signings primarily in the pack and (if rumours are true) at ten.

I think Ciaran meant that he went to Munster because there was no coach there and they needed someone on a short term basis to fill the role. He won't be going to Ulster because they have coaches in place.

thomond2006

There is only one man for the job.

molloyjh

prawnsambo wrote: »

You seem to have started out disagreeing with me and then finished by largely agreeing with me?

Um, well, yeah. Shut up prawnsambo!

Totally read that post wrong.....

awec wrote: »

Ulster has suffered enough.

Things will get worse before they get better. I think people would accept poor results if there was effort on show and they felt there would be medium/long term rewards for it. But what we have now is poor performances, poor results and no real optimism that it's going to get better any time soon. We don't look like we're building towards anything, we just look rubbish.

That's where having someone with a realistic outlook on the set-up, a long term plan to deal with it and good PR skills to communicate that would come in handy. So the last bit probably rules Cheika out completely anyway....

awec

awec wrote: »

We don't look like we're building towards anything, we just look rubbish.

That's the part that would be bothering me also. There are already good signings for next season but you feel that Ulster probably need a good few more to have a competitive squad. You are too vulnerable to key injuries at this stage and that doesn't look to have been remedied ahead of next season.

It would be good to see a strong emphasis on the academy structure and development pipelines. I know nothing of the Ulster academy and it's entirely possible it's operating at peak efficiency, but a good way to signal a more long term strategy would be greater investment here and a drive over the next few years to get as many developing players into the setup as possible.

I think one of the things Nucifora has brought in outside of the regional development officers is having the national senior coaches spend time with the academies. Hopefully this will start to have an impact across the board also.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

There is only one man for the job.

Sploosh.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

There is only one man for the job.

Interesting story about this picture. Francis was involved in the 'Hassle in the Castle', a white collar boxing event held in Kiliney castle years ago. It was organised by Blackrock College and hosted by none other than George Hook.

Couple of the schools teachers and past pupils boxed and it was a brilliant night. Turned into a complete session and a night out to remember.

Laughed when I saw the picture, Francis didn't mess around in the ring either, chap he was fighting looked in good nick but you appreciate the size and power that Francis still has when you see some of the jabs he was throwing. He was very entertaining to be fair to him, self deprecating and great sport.

The school principle (AJ McGinty's father) also boxed against Allain Rolland. They were both fairly knackered after about 30 seconds.

Article here about it: https://www.herald.ie/news/blackrocks-knockout-night-packs-a-punch-for-charity-trip-27980356.html

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Ulster has suffered enough.

Things will get worse before they get better. I think people would accept poor results if there was effort on show and they felt there would be medium/long term rewards for it. But what we have now is poor performances, poor results and no real optimism that it's going to get better any time soon. We don't look like we're building towards anything, we just look rubbish.

Just looked at the highlights there and there was some pretty good work from Ulster which was let down by poor handling/recycling. Darren Cave got the ball ripped off him by Robbie Henshaw and that ended with a try by McFadden after Andrew Porter just brushed off Cave (again!). To coin .ak, Cave was poison for Ulster imo.

McCloskey was probably the best attacking player for Ulster and Stewart and McPhillips seemed to go well for guys with so little experience. McPhillips made 37m with 5 carries, made a clean break and beat 3 defenders. Stewart made 18 from 3 and also had a clean break and a defender beaten.

But getting stripped of the ball in the opposition 22 is just really poor stuff from an experienced player. His attempt at a tackle on Porter was laughably poor. Literally the only way you could make that tackle and not have it stick.

Yeah_Right

That performance by Cave showed why he doesn't have more Irish caps. I've never rated him that highly. He's an average provincial player capable of some good performances. But he is inconsistent and quite often he can be really poor. Saturday night, he was awful.

prawnsambo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That performance by Cave showed why he doesn't have more Irish caps. I've never rated him that highly. He's an average provincial player capable of some good performances. But he is inconsistent and quite often he can be really poor. Saturday night, he was awful.

'Poison', please.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

That's the part that would be bothering me also. There are already good signings for next season but you feel that Ulster probably need a good few more to have a competitive squad. You are too vulnerable to key injuries at this stage and that doesn't look to have been remedied ahead of next season.

It would be good to see a strong emphasis on the academy structure and development pipelines. I know nothing of the Ulster academy and it's entirely possible it's operating at peak efficiency, but a good way to signal a more long term strategy would be greater investment here and a drive over the next few years to get as many developing players into the setup as possible.

I think one of the things Nucifora has brought in outside of the regional development officers is having the national senior coaches spend time with the academies. Hopefully this will start to have an impact across the board also.

I think this has already happened, but I fear it'll be a while before we see the full results.

At the very least with Rea and Dalton and the likes coming through we are a bit better than we were at least.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

I think this has already happened, but I fear it'll be a while before we see the full results.

At the very least with Rea and Dalton and the likes coming through we are a bit better than we were at least.

Yeah. Could hardly fault the academy really with the current strike rate: Stockdale, Lyttle, Stewart, McPhillips and Timoney are all excellent players.

irishfan9

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. Could hardly fault the academy really with the current strike rate: Stockdale, Lyttle, Stewart, McPhillips and Timoney are all excellent players.

excellent? eh... they are very good prospects.

Interested Observer

Timoney is from Leinster right?

awec

Interested Observer wrote: »

Timoney is from Leinster right?

Yes, didn't get a spot in the Leinster academy and joined Ulster instead.

stellenbosch

awec wrote: »

Yes, didn't get a spot in the Leinster academy and joined Ulster instead.

And so is Greg Jones who has done very very well

stellenbosch

awec wrote: »

Yes, didn't get a spot in the Leinster academy and joined Ulster instead.

...and so is Eric O'Sullivan...

molloyjh

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. Could hardly fault the academy really with the current strike rate: Stockdale, Lyttle, Stewart, McPhillips and Timoney are all excellent players.

As has been noted Timoney is from Leinster. Ulster have generally been well able to produce backs, it's up front they've struggled. And they still are struggling there.

MJohnston

molloyjh wrote: »

As has been noted Timoney is from Leinster. Ulster have generally been well able to produce backs, it's up front they've struggled. And they still are struggling there.

Well in fairness he was in the Ulster Academy a lot longer than he was in the Leinster Academy, so at least we can say that our academy doesn't ruin potential players.

irishfan9

MJohnston wrote: »

Well in fairness he was in the Ulster Academy a lot longer than he was in the Leinster Academy, so at least we can say that our academy doesn't ruin potential players.

to be fair I think the biggest problem with Ulster academy is happening before the formal academy... which is really just a finishing school for work done at underage level.

Timoney was a good prospect after u20 level but not great, Ulster have done a good job with him IMO.

prawnsambo

molloyjh wrote: »

As has been noted Timoney is from Leinster. Ulster have generally been well able to produce backs, it's up front they've struggled. And they still are struggling there.

I am aware. But they still deserve credit for taking him in and developing him to the point where he's become a team regular.

awec

How much work goes into the young players by the provinces before they get to academy stage? It's just schools that do the work at that stage, right? Probably with the odd input from a provincial coach?