'Travellers have a right to a home that is culturally appropriate'

Ulysses Gaze

end of the road wrote: »

the european council + all the relevant laws say such money for travelers is deserved.

We could have told the European Council where to go.....

I know, I know...we didn't....but we could have.

It's not like they were going to boot us out of the EU if we disregarded what they said.

end of the road

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

They also say cucumbers should always be straight.

that's been abolished.

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

We could have told the European Council where to go.....

I know, I know...we didn't....but we could have.

It's not like they were going to boot us out of the EU if we disregarded what they said.

we would just have been fined hugely, and kept receiving such until we abided by the rules.

J.pilkington

end of the road wrote: »

that's been abolished.

I don’t think you are doing your cause any favours, in fact the opposite and only making things worse with that attitude.....

Ulysses Gaze

end of the road wrote: »

that's been abolished.




we would just have been fined hugely, and kept receiving such until we abided by the rules.

Which we could just refuse to pay

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

These gobsh1tes from The Council of Europe who think they are so hard done by haven't a clue, Travellers spend their whole life leeching off working people and that will never change.

An argument that could be made about any forum anywhere in the world that advances any human rights to any group that you just don't like.

They don't deserve it because they're scumbags. Ah no no, you don't understand, they really are scumbags.

Church on Tuesday

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

If it saw a few children through life enhancing operations it would be worth it. Give our scarce resources to those who deserve them and withdraw them from those taking the plss

Be better if the HSE copped on and was run with far more efficiency.

Mutant z

If they want their own fancy house then they can pay for it all out of their own pockets.

nullzero

I spent years interacting with Travellers through work. They are an odd bunch to say the least, they can be incredibly aggressive and unpleasant, they can also be incredibly friendly, but the most important thing I learned about them is that they feel they are always a step ahead of everybody. "Settled" people aren't street smart enough to keep up with them and therefore are fair game.

Undoubtedly Travellers have to deal with a lot of prejudice but sadly people are right to be wary of them. Over the last couple of decades Travellers have become increasingly involved in organized crime and are flush with cash. In light of these changes in the circumstances of Travellers it is increasingly difficult to feel a sense of social responsibility for ensuring they have any type of accommodation. A relation of "Fat" Andy Connors bought a house in West Dublin a couple of years ago with cash(over 200k in cash), these people are not poor unfortunates who survive off of charity, rather they have begun to use squeamishness around political correctness surrounding their "cultural" status to their advantage and as a smoke screen for their increasingly criminal behaviour.

The council of Europe may feel they deserve a particular status but how many bureaucrats in Brussels have been victims of home invasions carried out by Traveller gangs in rural Ireland or had elderly relatives beaten to a pulp by the thuggish Travellers who involve themselves in these acts?

The level of disconnection from the reality of this situation from people defending the rights of Travellers is notable.
I felt a similar way before I was in constant contact with them and felt foolish for having defended them in the past after the behaviour I witnessed over the years.
I'd love to say their reputation isn't warranted but sadly it is and then some, it will only change should they themselves make the decision to change, until then the current problems will only continue and escalate.

In relation to the issue of the state of their sites, that responsibility lies with them, I don't have anybody cleaning my home for me, personal responsibility is key in this situation.

Ulysses Gaze

nullzero wrote: »

I spent years interacting with Travellers through work. They are an odd bunch to say the least, they can be incredibly aggressive and unpleasant, they can also be incredibly friendly, but the most important thing I learned about them is that they feel they are always a step ahead of everybody. "Settled" people aren't street smart enough to keep up with them and therefore are fair game.

Undoubtedly Travellers have to deal with a lot of prejudice but sadly people are right to be wary of them. Over the last couple of decades Travellers have become increasingly involved in organized crime and are flush with cash. In light of these changes in the circumstances of Travellers it is increasingly difficult to feel a sense of social responsibility for ensuring they have any type of accommodation. A relation of "Fat" Andy Connors bought a house in West Dublin a couple of years ago with cash(over 200k in cash), these people are not poor unfortunates who survive off of charity, rather they have begun to use squeamishness around political correctness surrounding their "cultural" status to their advantage and as a smoke screen for their increasingly criminal behaviour.

The council of Europe may feel they deserve a particular status but how many bureaucrats in Brussels have been victims of home invasions carried out by Traveller gangs in rural Ireland or had elderly relatives beaten to a pulp by the thuggish Travellers who involve themselves in these acts?

The level of disconnection from the reality of this situation from people defending the rights of Travellers is notable.
I felt a similar way before I was in constant contact with them and felt foolish for having defended them in the past after the behaviour I witnessed over the years.
I'd love to say their reputation isn't warranted but sadly it is and then some, it will only change should they themselves make the decision to change, until then the current problems will only continue and escalate.

In relation to the issue of the state of their sites, that responsibility lies with them, I don't have anybody cleaning my home for me, personal responsibility is key in this situation.

Hence why I asked the question whether those that defended Travellers so vigorously on this thread, would want a Halting Site close to where they lived.

The silence was deafening.

Aidric

She has to get them to school, washed, fed, and ready to learn, bringing them the 6km there and back because her home is in a wasteland, far enough from the city to ensure that the gentle citizens don’t have to be disturbed by the reality of the discrimination that her little family is enduring every day.

This paragraph stood out for me. Ready to learn? If they even bother to turn up in the first place they are nothing more than a nuisance and certainly not ready to learn or contribute.

Wasteland? That wouldn't be a wasteland created all by themselves would it? They were accommodated next to a dump, not in a dump.

'Gentle citizens don't have to be disturbed'? What about the multiple break ins and attacks on the 'gentle citizens' who don't disturb the travelling community?

end of the road

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Which we could just refuse to pay

we would have trade sanctions put upon us, and the EU would just take the money from any funding they would give us. so, we would be paying whether we wanted to or not.

Mutant z wrote: »

If they want their own fancy house then they can pay for it all out of their own pockets.

some of them do. but people complain about that as well.

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Hence why I asked the question whether those that defended Travellers so vigorously on this thread, would want a Halting Site close to where they lived.

The silence was deafening.

because it's a question asked to push an agenda based on the answer, people are wise enough not to fall for it.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Excellent post Nullzero. Hit most of the major points on the head

DEFTLEFTHAND

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

No law. It's a basic human right.

It's not actually a human right, but obviously any decent society will strive to provide a certain level of social housing to its less fortunate citizens..

Annasopra

end of the road wrote: »

we would have trade sanctions put upon us, and the EU would just take the money from any funding they would give us. so, we would be paying whether we wanted to or not.

You dont actually know what you are talking about at all and you are making crap up.
1 The judgement was from the Council of Europe European Committee of Social Rights
2 It is a non binding judgement
3 The EU and The Council of Europe are entirely separate institutions
4 The EU would not place any trade sanctions or fine us for something that has nothing to do with the EU.

Tigger

nullzero wrote: »

I spent years interacting with Travellers through work. They are an odd bunch to say the least, they can be incredibly aggressive and unpleasant, they can also be incredibly friendly, but the most important thing I learned about them is that they feel they are always a step ahead of everybody. "Settled" people aren't street smart enough to keep up with them and therefore are fair game.

Undoubtedly Travellers have to deal with a lot of prejudice but sadly people are right to be wary of them. Over the last couple of decades Travellers have become increasingly involved in organized crime and are flush with cash. In light of these changes in the circumstances of Travellers it is increasingly difficult to feel a sense of social responsibility for ensuring they have any type of accommodation. A relation of "Fat" Andy Connors bought a house in West Dublin a couple of years ago with cash(over 200k in cash), these people are not poor unfortunates who survive off of charity, rather they have begun to use squeamishness around political correctness surrounding their "cultural" status to their advantage and as a smoke screen for their increasingly criminal behaviour.

The council of Europe may feel they deserve a particular status but how many bureaucrats in Brussels have been victims of home invasions carried out by Traveller gangs in rural Ireland or had elderly relatives beaten to a pulp by the thuggish Travellers who involve themselves in these acts?

The level of disconnection from the reality of this situation from people defending the rights of Travellers is notable.
I felt a similar way before I was in constant contact with them and felt foolish for having defended them in the past after the behaviour I witnessed over the years.
I'd love to say their reputation isn't warranted but sadly it is and then some, it will only change should they themselves make the decision to change, until then the current problems will only continue and escalate.

In relation to the issue of the state of their sites, that responsibility lies with them, I don't have anybody cleaning my home for me, personal responsibility is key in this situation.

good balanced post with insight

Church on Tuesday

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

It's not actually a human right, but obviously any decent society will strive to provide a certain level of social housing to its less fortunate citizens..

It's a human right as outlined in the UN charter.

cursai

****. Clicked on this thread by accident. Then got intrigued. Then remembered that it's a waste of time reading it.
Save yourselves

Corvo

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You dont actually know what you are talking about at all and you are making crap up.
1 The judgement was from the Council of Europe European Committee of Social Rights
2 It is a non binding judgement
3 The EU and The Council of Europe are entirely separate institutions
4 The EU would not place any trade sanctions or fine us for something that has nothing to do with the EU.

And this is where end of the road now cherry picks another post and moves on, because he simply can’t reply to your point. As he does with many other threads on the matter, once he’s put in his place he just ignores the post. Buffoon.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

4 The EU would not place any trade sanctions or fine us for something that has nothing to do with the EU.

That is true.

On the other hand, the EU itself has repeatedly condemned our treatment of travellers, produced report after report roundly criticising us, described them as the most discriminated group in Europe etc. The ruling of the Council of Europe was followed by a threat by the EU to issue proceedings, and we subsequently recognised their ethnic status. And that unequivocal condemnation is echoed in the UN, which again has slammed us, with particular concern expressed in relation to traveller women, traveller children etc. Again, all scumbags who are only themselves to blame for the squalor around them, because none of these international bodies that oversee human rights and check discrimination really understand human rights and discrimination, according to many here...

Badly Drunk Boy

Deleted User wrote: »

That's an old one that has no basis in logic. When did "the ideal neighbour" become the yardstick for applying human rights?

I wouldn't want to live in Pretoria or on a Reservation, all that filth and squalor...but I wouldn't measure the human rights that should be doled out to those who do on that basis.

Okay, but just say a brand spanking new halting site/housing estate was built beside where you live, would you be happy for the beleaguered Travellers who get to move in? There'd be no filth or squalor, at least at first...

erica74

I haven't a good thing to say about travellers. 99% are bad, if you deny that then you are either very lucky (in the interactions you've had with them) or really stupid.
I have had dealings with travellers all the way from primary school up to now as an adult and a land owner.
When I was in primary school, there was one traveller child in each class from junior infants up to 6th class. They were disruptive, arrived late, left early, hit teachers, hit other students, stole from other students and from the school, were suspended regularly, then as they got older, they got expelled, being in class with them was a nightmare because the teacher spent 50% of the time "handling" the traveller child.
One of them stole my PE bag with brand new runners my aunt had sent over from America. I grew up with an abusive mother so I got the **** kicked out of me at home because the traveller child stole my runners so you can understand I wasn't their biggest fan.

Secondary school was different, very few travellers, I think there was one in the whole school but that's normal for them not to progress. Sure how can they when they learned nothing in primary school because they were too busy acting out.
There was a halting site near my secondary school though so you'd get robbed at lunch, chased, the lads in the group would get into fights with them trying to scare them off.
The above is nothing different to what many others have mentioned on this thread, other similar threads, all over the internet and in real life. You can call this anecdotal evidence but that doesn't mean it's not true.

Now as an adult and a land owner, I have had to deal with the more intimidating vile side of travellers. I live alongside 4 other houses and they've all been burgled by travellers, one of them twice, a lady in her 80s lived in that house and has since moved out as she is too afraid to live there.
We know the travellers are afraid of our dogs, we have german shepherds, and anytime they've come near us, they're visibly afraid of our dogs.
They've attempted different shenanigans on our house and my husband has had to get out his shotgun and that has scared them off.
The gardai don't want to know because they're afraid of them and can't/won't do anything about them. I know this as a fact due to my many experiences with travellers and the gardai as a land owner and business owner.

So that's my contribution. I don't think they deserve something paid for by the taxpayer when they treat taxpayers the way they do. They have no respect for anyone or anything. I don't want to pay for a lifestyle that is outside of society.

nullzero

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That is true.

On the other hand, the EU itself has repeatedly condemned our treatment of travellers, produced report after report roundly criticising us, described them as the most discriminated group in Europe etc. The ruling of the Council of Europe was followed by a threat by the EU to issue proceedings, and we subsequently recognised their ethnic status. And that unequivocal condemnation is echoed in the UN, which again has slammed us, with particular concern expressed in relation to traveller women, traveller children etc. Again, all scumbags who are only themselves to blame for the squalor around them, because none of these international bodies that oversee human rights and check discrimination really understand human rights and discrimination, according to many here...

What you're outlining is an extremely abstract take on the issues surrounding Travellers.
Ultimately the vast majority of people in society understand the social compact and at the very least respect the responsibility they have to contribute to the society in which they live.
Travellers see society as a collection of people too inept to manipulate things as effectively as they do. We collectively deserve to be the victims of their anti social behaviour.
Travellers claim their roots go back to Cromwellian times (a mere 300 or so years) in yet in that short period of time they have somehow evolved into a separate ethnic group.
If Travellers aren't responsible for cleaning up the homes that are provided for them at the expense of the state then who is? Should I attend a Halting Site with cleaning materials and offer to give the place a good going over? How would I be received?

You continually quote the same disconnected poorly informed findings from bureaucratic bodies whom have no real experience of what the reality is surrounding the Traveling community other than what is selectively fed to them by the likes of pavee point.

You should go and live next to them, extend the goodwill you're showing them here in a practical way, I wish you well. I look forward to hearing how you get on.

Irish Guitarist

I know a traveller who has sexually assaulted numerous women by the river here. On the occasions when he's punished for this he gets a prison sentence of between five and nine months, then is released and goes back to live in the same halting site in the field beside the river. He's given more 'rights' than any of the women he has assaulted. The authorities don't give a fuck about the dead horses he and his family leave scattered in fields either. Fuck him and his rights.

Irish Guitarist

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I know a traveller who has sexually assaulted numerous women by the river here...

Yeah, and that hasn't happened amongst any other group in Ireland, ever.

You may hate them. But to use sexual assault to reinforce your intolerance of an entire ethnic group? Bit cheap, and a bit ironic if you are Irish given our history of sexual abuse of the most vulnerable (including many travellers).

Irish Guitarist

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, and that hasn't happened amongst any other group in Ireland, ever.

You may hate them. But to use sexual assault to reinforce your intolerance of an entire ethnic group? Bit cheap, and a bit ironic if you are Irish given our history of sexual abuse of the most vulnerable (including many travellers).

Well done on quoting only a couple of words of my post and ignoring the rest.

Irish Guitarist

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Well done on quoting only a couple of words of my post and ignoring the rest.

I quoted the opening line. The rest was a point about Courts, not travellers, and animal carcasses, which is hardly as serious as your very first objection.

But if you're now running from the inference you raised fair enough, it was pretty outrageous for an Irish person to use sexual assault to label an entire people...

Irish Guitarist

A 'settled' person talks about actual instances of criminal acts by travellers and he's a bigot. "Oh you can't blame them all for the actions of some of them".

A traveller writes an article blaming everyone else for problems of their own making and they're a social justice crusader. "Yeah, go ahead and blame those bastard settled people for every single thing that has gone wrong in your life. It's all their fault. Way to stick it to the man".

Irish Guitarist

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

A 'settled' person talks about actual instances of criminal acts by travellers and he's a bigot. "Oh you can't blame them all for the actions of some of them".

So are you blaming them all for the sexual assault you referred to?

Is sexual assault not an issue across society?

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

A traveller writes an article blaming everyone else for problems of their own making and they're a social justice crusader. "Yeah, go ahead and blame those bastard settled people for every single thing that has gone wrong in your life. It's all their fault. Way to stick it to the man".

Could you link the article you say amounts to the exact same tactic?

Irish Guitarist

Deleted User wrote: »

So are you blaming them all for the sexual assault you referred to?

Is sexual assault not an issue across society?



Could you link the article you say amounts to the exact same tactic?

I have absolutely no clue what you're on about at this stage.

I'm talking about one specific traveller that routinely gets a joke of a sentence because the court buys his sob story about his hard life. If you want to read something else into what I said knock yourself out.

nullzero

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah, and that hasn't happened amongst any other group in Ireland, ever.

You may hate them. But to use sexual assault to reinforce your intolerance of an entire ethnic group? Bit cheap, and a bit ironic if you are Irish given our history of sexual abuse of the most vulnerable (including many travellers).

It is actually quite notable how poorly Traveller men treat Traveller women, the use of violence against women and children in the Traveller community is something that is casually papered over.
In fact violence is a way of life for Travellers in general, enacting violent fueds between families in public places is commonplace. I recall a young girl in tallaght being left in a wheelchair over a decade ago after being hit by a car driven by a Traveller who was trying to knock down another Traveller he was in the middle of a fued with as a violent brawl was going on in broad daylight.
I once witnessed Travellers attack a group of black youths with hammers and saws simply because they were "monkeys" and happened to walk past their Halting site. In fact the racism I've witnessed from Travellers has left me speechless, if you are black I would advise you to steer clear of these racist thugs.
Ireland has a very shady history in terms of sexual abuse, but as we're learning these days so does the human race as a whole, we simply had a head start in finding out about our issues before most countries.