'Travellers have a right to a home that is culturally appropriate'

Irish Guitarist

Deleted User wrote: »

No they are not "granted" more rights than their victims. No more than any other criminal. In fact, I don't know the person accused or convicted of a crime who has "more" rights than other people.

But rather than using the empty line again and again, or keep up the innuendo that unlike the rest of society travellers have a tendency towards sexual assault - could you specify the exact rights that you think travellers have in criminal law that other Irish people do not have?

I've already pointed out the numerous offences a traveller I know has gotten away with. He's been sexually assaulting women for at least nine years then been allowed to live in the same halting site by the river where he commited his crimes, has beaten a man to a pulp, and has left numerous dead horses in fields by the river. And I never said they have a tendency towards sexual assault. They do have a tendency to get away with shit no one else would.

This is obviously pointless. You're going to continue to deliberately ignore my point.

CosmicJay

Deleted User wrote: »

Yerra utter nonsense!

But hilarious to see how embedded a complete myth can become as a result of a tv show.

Google it yourself, you'll see travellers saying they have never heard of it. Sure maybe you'd know more than them about the "constants" in their society...:D

You are at a point where everyone is disagreeing with you, and I would bet my bottom dollar that you are talking utter nonsense.

I do find it hilarious though that you googling it trumps everyone else hearing about it from travellers in real life.

end of the road

nullzero wrote: »

What you're outlining is an extremely abstract take on the issues surrounding Travellers.

what he is outlining is the findings of groups who know what they are talking about, findings in relation to issues and rules which we weren't abiding by. findings reached on the basis of mountains of evidence.

nullzero wrote: »

You continually quote the same disconnected poorly informed findings from bureaucratic bodies whom have no real experience of what the reality is surrounding the Traveling community other than what is selectively fed to them by the likes of pavee point.

he quotes the fully connected fully informed findings of non-bureaucratic bodies who have done their research and who have full experience of the reality surrounding the traveling community. you may not like the findings but the findings are accurate, hence ireland having to change and slowly begin to start abiding by them. these groups would have the full evidence of what is happening availible to them from multiple sources.

Akrasia wrote: »

People know about domestic refuse services that need to be licensed, but there are a lot of 'skip hire' services that people assume are legitimate because they're advertised in papers or online.

They might claim to be fully licensed and all above board, and there isn't really any way for the public to know for sure.

There are scummy 'settled people' who will knowingly use the services of someone they know is dumping illegally, and there are also ordinary people who need their shed cleared out who think they are hiring someone legitimate but their stuff ends up down a lane or in a woodland

sure, but the authorities seem to believe that one has the opportunity to check, given that should your name be found on anything you can apparently be prosecuted as well.

SnakePlissken wrote: »

And 70 year old mary down the street who doesn't know her google from her elbow is supposed to check a contractor is registered how?

It's no mystery as to why it's the old and vulnerable these crowds target, but no, they're to blame when a contractor disposes of their waste down some laneway.

she would surely have relatives who would do it for her. she has to check either way to insure there is no comeback on her.

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I've already pointed out the numerous offences a traveller I know has gotten away with. He's been sexually assaulting women for at least nine years then been allowed to live in the same halting site by the river where he commited his crimes, has beaten a man to a pulp, and has left numerous dead horses in fields by the river. And I never said they have a tendency towards sexual assault. They do have a tendency to get away with **** no one else would.

This is obviously pointless. You're going to continue to deliberately ignore my point.

the law is there to deal with this, and any other individual involved in the same criminality. so we can safely say that there are no extra rights for travelers as claimed.

Omackeral

end of the road why did you thank this post?

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It often is the settled community dumping crap at sites by the way

rustynutz

Travellers are handed perfectly clean, well finished halting sites straight after they are built. They then proceed to wreck them and create the poor conditions that they are living in, so yes, they do deserve to live in these places, you could build them a new house every 6 months and they would wreck that too. Lets spend our money helping people who actually want and appreciate being helped, like homeless families etc.

dr.fuzzenstein

I would bet that the two posters who are blindly and unthinkingly defending travelers don't have daily dealings with them or in fact any.

Roger Hassenforder

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it?

I haven't heard of it as a custom, much less that it is a defence in law to sexual assault.

Have you examples of when it was successfully pleaded, so we can see the extent of this claim that they have more rights in sexual assault. Thanks.

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely one poster can step up and point to one case where it was raised as a defence, if it's very common, very well known etc. Just one case. That's all.

If you'll point me to where on the statute book it rests as a lawful defence,
I'll find you several cases m'lud...

Corvo

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I would bet that the two posters who are blindly and unthinkingly defending travelers don't have daily dealings with them or in fact any.

Actually, I'm thinking the opposite. Probably involved with them someway.

rebel456

Corvo wrote: »

Actually, I'm thinking the opposite. Probably involved with them someway.

There's good money in that, if you're in the state sponsored sector providing traveller services etc. Given the ethnic status deceleration it's essentially a fast track to state funding.

Jim Bob Scratcher

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I would bet that the two posters who are blindly and unthinkingly defending travelers don't have daily dealings with them or in fact any.

That's SJW for ya

end of the road

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I would bet that the two posters who are blindly and unthinkingly defending travelers don't have daily dealings with them or in fact any.

not true. i have had both good and bad experiences with travelers.
if i were to judge all people in all groups on the basis of some members of those groups, like is being done to travelers, then i wouldn't like anybody.

jmayo

Corvo wrote: »

Actually, I'm thinking the opposite. Probably involved with them someway.

Think of it this way.

What percentage of defendants in any one court session involves members of the traveller community.
Now who do we know involved in the legal business around here ?

Where was Operation Tarmac again ?

BTW anyone notice how a lot of media coverage failed to acknowledge that these criminal gangs preying on the elderly with bogus home improvement scams were travellers.

Good thing the Garda called the operation to target them such an apt name.

It actually makes one think the Garda knew that the reference to their background would be removed.

end of the road

jmayo wrote: »

Think of it this way.

What percentage of defendants in any one court session involves members of the traveller community.
Now who do we know involved in the legal business around here ?

Where was Operation Tarmac again ?

BTW anyone notice how a lot of media coverage failed to acknowledge that these criminal gangs preying on the elderly with bogus home improvement scams were travellers.

Good thing the Garda called the operation to target them such an apt name.

It actually makes one think the Garda knew that the reference to their background would be removed.

but why does it ultimately matter whether the media put in the fact they were travelers or not. what does it actually change or what difference does it ultimately make whether they do or don't print such? the media often do print the fact that someone involved in a crime is a traveler and other times they may not. but who cares either way?

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect while the age profile of those getting married may be younger, I think to characterise it as "children marrying children" is wrong. Presumably they cannot marry any younger than the laws of this country provide, or are you saying they marry in another way? What age do you say is the average for their marriages?

Flynn's study in the Midland Health Board region in Ireland confirmed the young
age of marriage for Travellers. Flynn (1986) contended that marriage between
first cousins occur in 39% of all unions included in his study and is a matter of
serious concern especially, when consanguineous marriage is repeated in successive
generations. Flynn's study also found the usual age of marriage for Travellers to be in
late teens and is mostly arranged by parents, even in Settled families with children
who attended school.
6 Nualliin and Forde (1992) also confirmed that Travellers were married at a very
young age and consanguineous marriages are common among the Irish Traveller
population. In their study, seventeen couples (61 %) claimed that they were related to
one another, while 11 couples claimed they were not directly related although they
would have had intermarriage in their families in previous generations.

https://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=ijass

VinLieger

Akrasia wrote: »

https://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=ijass

Woah woah woah how dare you come here with mean facts that insult their rich culture like that......

Captain Obvious

end of the road wrote: »

but why does it ultimately matter whether the media put in the fact they were travelers or not. what does it actually change or what difference does it ultimately make whether they do or don't print such? the media often do print the fact that someone involved in a crime is a traveler and other times they may not. but who cares either way?

Because there is a strong narrative being pushed that travelers are the victims of human rights violations and that Ireland needs to do a lot more to support their chosen lifestyle. In reality, traveler issues are almost completely internal to their own self-segmented society. Failure to recognise the internal issues in fallout of blaming the settled folks is the reason traveler society is still stuck in the dark ages with massively disproportionate levels of crime, substance abuse, domestic violence, low education and health problems. Until these issues are recognised, they will not change.

end of the road

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Because there is a strong narrative being pushed that travelers are the victims of human rights violations and that Ireland needs to do a lot more to support their chosen lifestyle.

the fact that travelers are the victims of human rights violations is not a narrative though. it's a fact, backed up by mountains of evidence. ireland isn't being asked to do more to support their chosen lifestyle, but to insure they have full access to the same services as the rest of us. to be fair ireland is working at it, but we have a bit to go, it seems. we definitely seem to have a way to go in insuring their human rights are upheld, according to all the reputable organisations.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

In reality, traveler issues are almost completely internal to their own self-segmented society. Failure to recognise the internal issues in fallout of blaming the settled folks is the reason traveler society is still stuck in the dark ages with massively disproportionate levels of crime, substance abuse, domestic violence, low education and health problems. Until these issues are recognised, they will not change.

agreed but i'm still unsure what difference that makes in terms of the media printing whether someone is a traveler or not. it really doesn't answer the question of what difference printing it or not actually makes, or what it changes.

Crea

end of the road wrote: »

the fact that travelers are the victims of human rights violations is not a narrative though. it's a fact, backed up by mountains of evidence. ireland isn't being asked to do more to support their chosen lifestyle, but to insure they have full access to the same services as the rest of us. to be fair ireland is working at it, but we have a bit to go, it seems. we definitely seem to have a way to go in insuring their human rights are upheld, according to all the reputable organisations.



agreed but i'm still unsure what difference that makes in terms of the media printing whether someone is a traveler or not. it really doesn't answer the question of what difference printing it or not actually makes, or what it changes.

Can you please explain what services travellers do not have access to that the rest of us do?

PeterParker957

Crea wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

the fact that travelers are the victims of human rights violations is not a narrative though. it's a fact, backed up by mountains of evidence. ireland isn't being asked to do more to support their chosen lifestyle, but to insure they have full access to the same services as the rest of us. to be fair ireland is working at it, but we have a bit to go, it seems. we definitely seem to have a way to go in insuring their human rights are upheld, according to all the reputable organisations.



agreed but i'm still unsure what difference that makes in terms of the media printing whether someone is a traveler or not. it really doesn't answer the question of what difference printing it or not actually makes, or what it changes.

Can you please explain what services travellers do not have access to that the rest of us do?

They have access to them all.

They choose not to access many unless on their terms and choose not to contribute to society in a positive way but rather demand special treatment whilst paying nothing.

Roger Hassenforder

PeterParker957 wrote: »

They have access to them all.

They choose not to access many unless on their terms and choose not to contribute to society in a positive way but rather demand special treatment whilst paying nothing.

In fairness, they're disproportionately accessing some services.

Dr Crayfish

So what can we do about this? How can we stop them taking the p*ss out of all of us? I'd certainly vote for any party who had plans to crack down on them.

Permabear

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Omackeral

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

No, didn't you hear?

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It often is the settled community dumping crap at sites by the way

Our boy EOTR thanked that as well. I asked him why but he'd dodged it.

Dr Crayfish

lol, a report on BBC just came on about illegal fly tipping. I immediately thought, bet this is travellers, and whaddya know, they try and confront a guy pulling a caravan. Scumbags.

Galwayguy35

Deleted User wrote: »

That is true.

On the other hand, the EU itself has repeatedly condemned our treatment of travellers, produced report after report roundly criticising us, described them as the most discriminated group in Europe etc. The ruling of the Council of Europe was followed by a threat by the EU to issue proceedings, and we subsequently recognised their ethnic status. And that unequivocal condemnation is echoed in the UN, which again has slammed us, with particular concern expressed in relation to traveller women, traveller children etc. Again, all scumbags who are only themselves to blame for the squalor around them, because none of these international bodies that oversee human rights and check discrimination really understand human rights and discrimination, according to many here...

Well yeah if they are living in squalor as you put it then it is their own fault.

Leave rubbish all around the place for weeks on end and that will happen.

That's why the rest of us actually pay someone to take it away.

As I said before they have money but want to pay for nothing.

retro:electro

end of the road wrote: »

the fact that travelers are the victims of human rights violations is not a narrative though. it's a fact, backed up by mountains of evidence. ireland isn't being asked to do more to support their chosen lifestyle, but to insure they have full access to the same services as the rest of us. to be fair ireland is working at it, but we have a bit to go, it seems. we definitely seem to have a way to go in insuring their human rights are upheld, according to all the reputable organisations.



agreed but i'm still unsure what difference that makes in terms of the media printing whether someone is a traveler or not. it really doesn't answer the question of what difference printing it or not actually makes, or what it changes.

Bahahahahaha. How are their rights not upheld? They are literally let run amok while the rest of us pay for the havoc they create. Don't talk to me about their rights. They have more protection and entitlements than most of us working people ever will.

Rights? How about our right to not have to subsidise a subsection of society who refuse to work and only whinge and moan about the next thing they want for free. I've been in their houses with work. They are cute out. Pretend they can't read their appointment letters so don't show up but have the latest Iphone with no problem texting, sat flat out on the couch flicking through the sky channels on their massive tv telling me what's on telly later. They know every trick going and are accountable to no one.
Get to feck with that shlte.

Captain Obvious

To be fair I think the state is failing travelers in some regards. But these failures apply to settled people too. They are just more magnified in traveler society. Domestic violence is a prime example. The requirement that a victim must cooperate in most cases is a big failure in my opinion and one that is felt harder in traveler society. Juvenile delinquency is another area. The failure of the state to deal properly with juveniles who fail to attend school and who engage in criminality by holding parents accountable is another failure that is magnified in traveler society. But there are no failures specific to travelers.

server down

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I would bet that the two posters who are blindly and unthinkingly defending travelers don't have daily dealings with them or in fact any.

Conor is a country solicitor so he may well have.

end of the road

anna080 wrote: »

Bahahahahaha. How are their rights not upheld?

ask the council of europe and UN

anna080 wrote: »

They are literally let run amok while the rest of us pay for the havoc they create. Don't talk to me about their rights. They have more protection and entitlements than most of us working people ever will.

what "more protection and entitlements" do they have compared to working people like ourselves? could you name them?

anna080 wrote: »

Rights? How about our right to not have to subsidise a subsection of society who refuse to work and only whinge and moan about the next thing they want for free.

yes, rights. i'm afraid you don't have a right not to help those in need via your taxes. if you believe that someone isn't in need and is availing of the system illegally, then you must report it to the department of social wellfare, or where appropriate, revenue.

anna080 wrote: »

I've been in their houses with work. They are cute out. Pretend they can't read their appointment letters so don't show up but have the latest Iphone with no problem texting, sat flat out on the couch flicking through the sky channels on their massive tv telling me what's on telly later. They know every trick going. Get to feck with that shlte.

and what are you doing about it, or what have you done about it? you need to report your findings to the authorities.
what you have written doesn't disprove what has been stated by the council of europe or the UN who would know the laws and the actual realities unlike ourselves.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.