General Rugby Discussion II

Buer

Insane to give a kid that money. Whatever about rugby, they've no idea how he'll develop as a person. He might go on the beer for the next few years and even after that, he could go the way of Gordon D'Arcy and get his head together or go the way of Gavin Henson and his career could completely fall apart.

The entire Leinster academy would be on less money than that, I would be guessing.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Insane to give a kid that money. Whatever about rugby, they've no idea how he'll develop as a person. He might go on the beer for the next few years and even after that, he could go the way of Gordon D'Arcy and get his head together or go the way of Gavin Henson and his career could completely fall apart.

The entire Leinster academy would be on less money than that, I would be guessing.

Well someone was going to do it. He's an international squad member at 18 years old. If Quins didn't do it then someone else in England or France would.

And in the grander scheme of things it's not a huge investment in someone who could become an elite player in the most important position on the pitch during that contract. He COULD become a tw*t but the onus is on his employer to protect their investment and keep him on the straight and narrow.

OldRio

Clegg wrote: »

Marcus Smith has signed a new contract with Harlequins worth 230k per annum before performance related bonuses.

He's 18.

Deary me. Another step towards EPL soccer money.

Squidgy Black

Buer wrote: »

The entire Leinster academy would be on less money than that, I would be guessing.

According to Jonny Holland's ama Academy contracts here are usually only around 10k so more than likely yeah

irishbucsfan

OldRio wrote: »

Deary me. Another step towards EPL soccer money.

If he was a soccer player starting in Europe and pushing for his international place he'd probably be looking for that amount of money every week!

errlloyd

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And in the grander scheme of things it's not a huge investment in someone who could become an elite player in the most important position on the pitch during that contract. He COULD become a tw*t but the onus is on his employer to protect their investment and keep him on the straight and narrow.

He could conceivably still be one of the lowest paid first choice outhalves in the Aviva Premiership? I'd say all these lads are on more.

Farrell (Sarries)
Steenson (Exeter)
Gopperth (Wasps)
Priestland (Bath)
Ford (Leicster)
Piers Francis (Northampton)
James O Connor (Newcastle)

Interested Observer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

According to Jonny Holland's ama Academy contracts here are usually only around 10k so more than likely yeah

Well he's an exceptional talent and has skipped any academy stage. It happens in Ireland too, albeit rarely. Luke Fitz went from school to a senior contract for example.

I don't see the issue with this, his age is irrelevant, what's relevant is what he does on the pitch.

Tigerandahalf

OldRio wrote: »

Deary me. Another step towards EPL soccer money.

In fairness he is the starting outhalf for a reasonably big team in Quins and is also taking their kicks. If he was 22 or 23 nobody would take any notice.

It is just a case of can he keep developing. He could have 14 years ahead of him so easy to see why Harlequins would tie him down.

I presume the contract is for about 4 years. If so it is great value.

awec

Squidgy Black wrote: »

According to Jonny Holland's ama Academy contracts here are usually only around 10k so more than likely yeah

Am I not right in thinking that while academy contracts are rather modestly paid in Ireland the players get many non-monetary benefits that makes them roughly comparable with the academy contracts in England?

Anyway, I suspect it won't be long until this sort of thing is more common place. It won't be long until they are waving big contracts under the noses of promising Irish players.

thomond2006

I hope Smith has his head on his shoulders. There's plenty of examples of exceptional talents who got too much too soon.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Am I not right in thinking that while academy contracts are rather modestly paid in Ireland the players get many non-monetary benefits that makes them roughly comparable with the academy contracts in England?

Anyway, I suspect it won't be long until this sort of thing is more common place. It won't be long until they are waving big contracts under the noses of promising Irish players.

Well they already are waving contracts under the noses of Irish players. Even lads from Dundalk as absolutely incredible as that sounds.

Irish guys generally haven't been getting offers from overseas because they themselves would have to take a risk to go... whereas the alternative is go to college with your friends while playing the sport you love close to home.

It's completely up to the individual but I reckon you'd need to be offering 4/5x more than our academies to attract guys, and the guys who are good enough to attract those kinds of offers would be the Luke Fitzgerald/Paddy Butler type lads who go straight onto development contracts I'd reckon. That could change in future if English/French clubs get the budgets to be able to offer those deals to guys who the Irish provinces can't afford to give development deals to.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Am I not right in thinking that while academy contracts are rather modestly paid in Ireland the players get many non-monetary benefits that makes them roughly comparable with the academy contracts in England?

Anyway, I suspect it won't be long until this sort of thing is more common place. It won't be long until they are waving big contracts under the noses of promising Irish players.

Academy players also get paid for senior appearances. Even for the 'A' team I think.

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

I hope Smith has his head on his shoulders. There's plenty of examples of exceptional talents who got too much too soon.

Matthew Morgan, Cipriani or even Jeremy Staunton spring to mind. All of them were superb talents and playing for their teams as teenagers but fell away badly through their formative years and never got near the heights they once promised.

I'm sure he's an exceptional talent but there's far too many unknowns when dealing with a kid for me to think that amount is reasonable.

The Lost Sheep

Could have posted this in a few threads but maybe better here. Blackrock have had plenty of issues financially in recent times(from having to rent out grounds to Soccer teams etc etc) i suppose this is just a continuation of that

Blackrock College RFC have released a statement that themselves and Monkstown are in discussions to look at how to work together to increase membership, playing numbers etc.
Both clubs will remain separate entities for now.
http://www.blackrockcollegerfc.ie/single-post/2018/01/12/Blackrock-College-RFC-and-Monkstown-FC

Bridge93

A needed discussion. Rock has been dying on its feet for a few years now

The Lost Sheep

Bridge93 wrote: »

A needed discussion. Rock has been dying on its feet for a few years now

Its a tough one. How do they change things. Do they work hard with the school. See if more kids in the school and others other than just Blackrock College can play rugby with the club while still in school in the hope that this will keep more playing at 20s and into adult rugby and in the hope that this can get their parents as members/involved in the club.
Theyre not the only club in South Dublin dying on their feet with Bective Rangers also in serious trouble as well.

Bridge93

Yeah i really have no idea what they do apart from try improve the link to the school. It really is tough.
I really think the Blackrock College name is a deterrent for those from other schools to play there beyond school but don't think that can be changed. Just have to find another method of recruitment there.

They used to survive even with that problem as a lot of the cream from the school went up to Stradbrook but in the last decade it's dried up massively. Now they've limited bodies coming through the door from anywhere.
When you see the relative success of other past pupil clubs there is something integral going wrong given the size of Blackrock the school.

They can talk all they want to students but I feel unless the kids are involved prior to leaving 6th year they will continue to flow to other clubs, usually Lansdowne, UCD and Old Belvo.
What I would do, regarding attracting the kids from within Blackrock first, would be to heavily link the Blackrock 4th year teams to the rugby club. The best fourth years will be up with the House (senior team for 4th/5th years) teams but there are still about 40/50 lads playing what they call Colts rugby. These teams often end up playing in the social senior leagues and cups as they are too small and young to compete with other senior teams as the better 4th years are elsewhere.

Instead of playing this level of rugby, which is fine for those who wish to play social rugby, the rugby club should be targeting the 20/25 lads in the Colts who want to play competitive rugby. Let these guys play club rugby for the year and have them back for the senior cycle come 5th year. The school ban on club rugby makes sense for some but not all and harms playing numbers long term.

How you target the top players I'm not so sure. Those outside the bubble of blackrock is even harder for me to think of something. But something dramatic needs to happen or there's every chance they could fold as a club

The Lost Sheep

Bridge93 wrote: »

Yeah i really have no idea what they do apart from try improve the link to the school. It really is tough.
I really think the Blackrock College name is a deterrent for those from other schools to play there beyond school but don't think that can be changed. Just have to find another method of recruitment there.

They used to survive even with that problem as a lot of the cream from the school went up to Stradbrook but in the last decade it's dried up massively. Now they've limited bodies coming through the door from anywhere.
When you see the relative success of other past pupil clubs there is something integral going wrong given the size of Blackrock the school.

They can talk all they want to students but I feel unless the kids are involved prior to leaving 6th year they will continue to flow to other clubs, usually Lansdowne, UCD and Old Belvo.
What I would do, regarding attracting the kids from within Blackrock first, would be to heavily link the Blackrock 4th year teams to the rugby club. The best fourth years will be up with the House (senior team for 4th/5th years) teams but there are still about 40/50 lads playing what they call Colts rugby. These teams often end up playing in the social senior leagues and cups as they are too small and young to compete with other senior teams as the better 4th years are elsewhere.

Instead of playing this level of rugby, which is fine for those who wish to play social rugby, the rugby club should be targeting the 20/25 lads in the Colts who want to play competitive rugby. Let these guys play club rugby for the year and have them back for the senior cycle come 5th year. The school ban on club rugby makes sense for some but not all and harms playing numbers long term.

How you target the top players I'm not so sure. Those outside the bubble of blackrock is even harder for me to think of something. But something dramatic needs to happen or there's every chance they could fold as a club

Its very tough. It is a deterrent even though if you went to school in Dublin you know the club as "stradbrook" and dont actually call them Blackrock!

I think the link between schools and clubs can be considerably helped by having open grade cup competitions for clubs at the end of every season. With only proviso is that no club team can have more than "x" amount from any school or even a school team so you dont have the terenure JCTs playing as the terenure rfc u16s in the open cup.

Yeah_Right

I've heard that an issue at Blackrock club was their refusal to pay players. It meant a lot of the top players from the school went to other clubs. Apparently that's changing as they've realized they want be competitive and won't get back to the top level without paying the players.

Clegg

Billy Vunipola has fractured his forearm. They haven't said how long he'll be out for but he'll miss at least the first few 6N games.

swiwi_

Clegg wrote: »

Billy Vunipola has fractured his forearm. They haven't said how long he'll be out for but he'll miss at least the first few 6N games.

That’s an unlucky break...

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I've heard that an issue at Blackrock club was their refusal to pay players. It meant a lot of the top players from the school went to other clubs. Apparently that's changing as they've realized they want be competitive and won't get back to the top level without paying the players.

I dont believe that tbh.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/fergus-slattery-survival-of-amateur-rugby-is-a-real-concern-1.2542698
They called for paying in the game to be cut but they were some of the worst culprits for paying players over the years.
They can be competitive and get back to the top level without paying players if they were cleverer with their recruitment and links to younger players

Yeah_Right

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont believe that tbh.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/fergus-slattery-survival-of-amateur-rugby-is-a-real-concern-1.2542698
They called for paying in the game to be cut but they were some of the worst culprits for paying players over the years.
They can be competitive and get back to the top level without paying players if they were cleverer with their recruitment and links to younger players

Its what I've been told by some friends involved with the club.

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Its what I've been told by some friends involved with the club.

Fair enough. Pretty sad game has gone like that. Club should be doing far better to attract others which they havent done

Clegg

Multiple media outlets are now saying Bully Vunipola will miss the entire 6N. Awful news for him on a personal level. He's been plagued by injuries over the last two years.

Stheno

Clegg wrote: »

Multiple media outlets are now saying Bully Vunipola will miss the entire 6N. Awful news for him on a personal level. He's been plagued by injuries over the last two years.

Yeah I read he's out for ten weeks, he must be sickened

Apparently England are short of back row options

Dog Botherer

Stheno wrote: »

Yeah I read he's out for ten weeks, he must be sickened

Apparently England are short of back row options

Yeah, with Haskell likely to cop a ban and Vunipola and Hughes out, could well see Itoje at 6, Robshaw 7, and A.N. Other at 8. Sam Simmonds or Jack Clifford would be most likely, short of a callup for Ben Morgan, which is very unlikely.

Back Row is definitely an area of weakness for England when Vunipola is out.

clsmooth

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well they already are waving contracts under the noses of Irish players. Even lads from Dundalk as absolutely incredible as that sounds.

Any word on how Tagdh McIlory is getting on with Saracens? Any reason why Leinster weren't in for him seeing as he was by all accounts one of the stand out Irish players for the U-20s last year?

jr86

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Yeah, with Haskell likely to cop a ban and Vunipola and Hughes out, could well see Itoje at 6, Robshaw 7, and A.N. Other at 8. Sam Simmonds or Jack Clifford would be most likely, short of a callup for Ben Morgan, which is very unlikely.

Back Row is definitely an area of weakness for England when Vunipola is out.

In fairness anyone would be hampered without a player of Vunipola's caliber

Underhill may well not have started anyway, Jones is a huge fan of Robshaw - who has been tremendous in his tenure, and it'd be hard to leave either Lawes or launchbury out of 2nd row, meaning a choice between Itoje or Underhill.

Sadly for England though it seems that injury may well rob them of two supreme talents in Vunipola and Tuilagi in their prime.

That said they won the 6nations without BV last year and they may well do so again. I can't see them slipping up before a potential Grand Slam decider with Ireland at Twickenham.

awec

Sopoaga to Wasps confirmed.

Ulster miss the boat.