General Rugby Discussion II

Interested Observer · 23-01-2018 5:44pm

I can't remember if he mentioned relegation exactly but DOC has very much been banging the "you have to pick your best players every single week in the AP" drum as well.

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 5:44pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

On the contrary, I've seen it used in newspaper articles and in the comments section of newspaper articles very recently in relation to the poor outcomes for Premiership teams in Europe.

Mainly n the "Pro 14 teams can rest players because there is no relegation" sense.

Ben Kay wrote an aricle which has a table of Lions players' minutes played this season to illustrate this point.

Edit: He omitted to note that many of the Pro 14 Lions players have been injured and not been able to play.

What did Ben Kay say about relegation?

I have rarely, rarely seen it amongst people over there, and I was living and playing there for 6 years until last year.

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 5:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you want to take it up with RTÉ and BBC go right ahead.

We didn't invent this.

It was Ashton second btw, McCafferty owns the first.

I never said Irish fans invented it, read what I said again. I'm saying it's a tiny minority opinion that people pick up on and pretend it's a prevailing theory because it suits their dislike of the English.

errlloyd · 23-01-2018 5:46pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What did Ben Kay say about relegation?

I have rarely, rarely seen it amongst people over there, and I was living and playing there for 6 years until last year.

An English rugby fan (Exeter Chiefs) said it to me in a pub the other day, but he meant it facetiously, as if he was embarrassed it had ever been suggested in the first place.

23-01-2018 5:46pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I never said Irish fans invented it, read what I said again. I'm saying it's a tiny minority opinion that people pick up on and pretend it's a prevailing theory because it suits their dislike of the English.

The tiny minority being those that own and control the game in the country?

Come on...

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 5:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The tiny minority being those that own and control the game in the country?

Come on...

If Mark McCafferty is the only example then yes, he's a tiny minority. And he doesn't control the game in England and he owns absolutely nothing.

prawnsambo · 23-01-2018 5:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As simple as that rugby is a squad game, and you need to protect your players better. The way to do this is to build a competitive squad, which means that you can afford to manage gametime of guys who also play international rugby.

If this is new news, I despair for the rugby brains in England.

There's been a bit of an unintended consequence of the 'marquee player' rule in the Premiership. Because these players are outside the salary cap, it's all fine and dandy... except that the other players in the squad are demanding parity or at least closer pay deals to the 'marquee' players.

And so salary costs are rising and because of the cap, numbers are dwindling to balance it out.

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 5:49pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

I can't remember if he mentioned relegation exactly but DOC has very much been banging the "you have to pick your best players every single week in the AP" drum as well.

A lot of people talk about how front line players play a lot more in England because they do. Its nothing to do with relegation or the standard of the league though, its a lack of depth and I'd say that's mostly down to financials.

23-01-2018 5:51pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's been a bit of an unintended consequence of the 'marquee player' rule in the Premiership. Because these players are outside the salary cap, it's all fine and dandy... except that the other players in the squad are demanding parity or at least closer pay deals to the 'marquee' players.

And so salary costs are rising and because of the cap, numbers are dwindling to balance it out.

Yup, I am completely in agreement here, however it is totally self-inflicted.

Nobody was able to consider out the ramifications of the Marquee player? Nobody able to think it through?
Is it a rule that cannot be rolled back?

The issue is that there have always been options available to PRL to take to head this off, but they never have. And sure what's a salary cap for exactly anyway? - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11982510/Premiership-rugby-salary-cap-cover-up-is-a-scandal-which-cheats-fans.html

LeinsterDub · 23-01-2018 5:52pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So basically here are two people.

Eggchasers opened their Podcast this week blaming relegation .

23-01-2018 5:54pm

I have a feeling that the 'two people' could quite easily become a bit of a;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 5:54pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Eggchasers opened their Podcast this week blaming relegation .

I don't listen to that podcast, I'll have a listen, cheers. Maybe they're the culprits.

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 5:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a feeling that the 'two people' could quite easily become a bit of a;

It's one person so far. And about 10,000 tweets from Irish fans.

Quin_Dub · 23-01-2018 5:56pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's been a bit of an unintended consequence of the 'marquee player' rule in the Premiership. Because these players are outside the salary cap, it's all fine and dandy... except that the other players in the squad are demanding parity or at least closer pay deals to the 'marquee' players.

And so salary costs are rising and because of the cap, numbers are dwindling to balance it out.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A lot of people talk about how front line players play a lot more in England because they do. Its nothing to do with relegation or the standard of the league though, its a lack of depth and I'd say that's mostly down to financials.

This is the key issue in England - They simply don't have the squad depth required to keep players at a reasonable level of playing time which the general consensus suggests is something in the mid 20's in terms of total games..

So if a guy is playing ~10 Internationals a year and you allow for maybe 6 Euro games that leaves 8-10 games for the league including playoffs.

The English guys are playing twice that because they can't afford the depth because they've been paying over the odds trying to compete with France.

prawnsambo · 23-01-2018 5:58pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What did Ben Kay say about relegation?

I have rarely, rarely seen it amongst people over there, and I was living and playing there for 6 years until last year.

Sorry, I can't read it now - stupid article limit.

He basically said it was a apectre hanging over English clubs, I think was the phrase. The table was to illustrate the inability of English clubs to rotate players.

Dayglo also had an article in December along the same lines.

Interested Observer · 23-01-2018 6:00pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A lot of people talk about how front line players play a lot more in England because they do. Its nothing to do with relegation or the standard of the league though, its a lack of depth and I'd say that's mostly down to financials.

That is not the point DOC was making. At all. He put it entirely down to the standard of the league.

LeinsterDub · 23-01-2018 6:01pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't listen to that podcast, I'll have a listen, cheers. Maybe they're the culprits.

They aren't the culprits it's an argument I've been hearing for years

English teams doing well = Relegation makes us strong
English teams not doing well = Relegation means we can't play an expansive game

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 6:06pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They aren't the culprits it's an argument I've been hearing for year

English teams doing well = Relegation makes us strong
English teams not doing well = Relegation means we can't play an expansive game

I've heard the one or two complaints about relegation restricting some teams, which makes sense however it obviously will only ever affect 3-4 teams per year, but I've very rarely heard the other one.

Maybe one day if I keep going on ignoring all these hilarious Irish jokes about it I'll finally hear it from an actual English person. Was there someone saying relegation was responsible for Saracens? Not really, most of the complaints about them were actually legitimate, putting their success down to their cavalier spending, their good young English players and the quality of Mark McCall.

23-01-2018 6:08pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's one person so far. And about 10,000 tweets from Irish fans.

Perhaps you should email the BBC and RTÉ to ask for their sources. I've linked the articles above.

As reputable journalists, I doubt they'll help you. But the tinfoil hat stuff that is "it is made up" is a little weird no?

Very trumpian.

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 6:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps you should email the BBC and RTÉ to ask for their sources. I've linked the articles above.

As reputable journalists, I doubt they'll help you. But the tinfoil hat stuff that is "it is made up" is a little weird no?

Very trumpian.

You said 2 people. I was pointing out it's actually one person whose been quoted saying anything remotely like this. That's it so far.

My point is it only takes one person. It's not a massively complex point I'm making here. Get one person to say it and report it 100 times and you can make it appear to be a widely held view, when it never was.

c.p.w.g.w · 23-01-2018 6:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The tiny minority being those that own and control the game in the country?

Come on...

Realistically in the Premiership there are only two teams in danger of relegation, and those pushing to become the league winners realistically need to finish in the top 4 and they still have a change come post season.

2017/18 - Worcester & Irish
2016/17 - Worcester & Bristol
2015/16 - Newcastle & Irish
2014/15 - Newcastle & Welsh

In the 2 of the last 3 years, the previous Championship Side went straight back down, and looks like the same this year, with Irish 9 points off Worcester, the last side to not go straight back to the Championship.

And despite Saints being terrible this year they are 16 points ahead of irish.

Relegation makes little to no difference to the top sides, it just means a handful of the same times will probably just be swapping places year in, year out and will finish in and around the bottom quarter and on occasion a team will adept to the Premiership like Exeter and win it.

prawnsambo · 23-01-2018 6:15pm

What's the reason behind the move to scrap it then? For a country with enough rugby teams to make up two pro divisions, surely relegation and promotion is a good thing?

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 6:20pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

What's the reason behind the move to scrap it then? For a country with enough rugby teams to make up two pro divisions, surely relegation and promotion is a good thing?

I think it's a terrible decision to scrap it, before I say any more. They just need to make some changes imo.

But it's unsustainable for most clubs to keep going up and down, they never go anywhere. It's extremely rare (Exeter) for someone to make it up and go anywhere, because they don't have the financial stability to build a squad.

So you just end up with basement dwellers yo-yoing between the Championship and Premiership where the threat of relegation and the financial ruin it brings prevents them from doing any sort of long-term investment without the Bristol-style financial backer (which is probably even more unsustainable in most cases).

So they think they'll just scrap the relegation, everyone will be happy and make lots of money. But it won't work, it'll be a disaster for the quality of the product and a disaster for the teams in the Championship (in my opinion).

LeinsterDub · 23-01-2018 6:23pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've heard the one or two complaints about relegation restricting some teams, which makes sense however it obviously will only ever affect 3-4 teams per year, but I've very rarely heard the other one.

Maybe one day if I keep going on ignoring all these hilarious Irish jokes about it I'll finally hear it from an actual English person. Was there someone saying relegation was responsible for Saracens? Not really, most of the complaints about them were actually legitimate, putting their success down to their cavalier spending, their good young English players and the quality of Mark McCall.

As for the notion that a closed-shop league would encourage more attacking, fear-free play, as seen in the southern hemisphere’s ring-fenced Super Rugby; there is an equally valid argument that players who have to scrap for their club’s existence are more hardened and more in tune with the demands of a World Cup. It cuts both ways.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11438559/Promotion-and-relegation-integral-part-of-English-rugby-forget-about-the-Exeters-if-you-pull-up-the-trapdoor.html

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 6:27pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11438559/Promotion-and-relegation-integral-part-of-English-rugby-forget-about-the-Exeters-if-you-pull-up-the-trapdoor.html

:pac:

This is someone saying explicitly that relegation doesn't necessarily do either of the things! They're equally valid arguments, he says!

prawnsambo · 23-01-2018 6:29pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think it's a terrible decision to scrap it, before I say any more. They just need to make some changes imo.

But it's unsustainable for most clubs to keep going up and down, they never go anywhere. It's extremely rare (Exeter) for someone to make it up and go anywhere, because they don't have the financial stability to build a squad.

So you just end up with basement dwellers yo-yoing between the Championship and Premiership where the threat of relegation and the financial ruin it brings prevents them from doing any sort of long-term investment without the Bristol-style financial backer (which is probably even more unsustainable in most cases).

So they think they'll just scrap the relegation, everyone will be happy and make lots of money. But it won't work, it'll be a disaster for the quality of the product and a disaster for the teams in the Championship (in my opinion).

That's what I would have thought. Because to padlock the lower division and leave it to rot will just kill that level off nice and slowly.

I certainly can't see how it would help the Premiership. Or [cynical] would it just allow them to plunder the championship for players without havinig to pay them a lot of money? [/cynical]

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 6:33pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's what I would have thought. Because to padlock the lower division and leave it to rot will just kill that level off nice and slowly.

I certainly can't see how it would help the Premiership. Or [cynical] would it just allow them to plunder the championship for players without havinig to pay them a lot of money? [/cynical]

It won't kill that level. It doesn't kill the AIL or the Welsh Premiership.

It will however leave much weaker sides behind and we'll probably see the Championship end up at the same standard as AIL 1a, and those sides not that far ahead of it right now in my opinion.

I can see a potential benefit to the Premiership teams. That is those teams are guarranteed their revenue years in advance. For example a team like Cardiff would be in crisis mode right now if they were in the Premiership. But they can look for a new coach and take their time to rebuild without risking financial ruin (hopefully). That's a benefit to removing relegation.

But the downside is that the competition becomes far more boring for fans outside of the top 8 and I think that'll have a much bigger impact than they are expecting.

c.p.w.g.w · 23-01-2018 6:39pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It won't kill that level. It doesn't kill the AIL or the Welsh Premiership.

It will however leave much weaker sides behind and we'll probably see the Championship end up at the same standard as AIL 1a, and those sides not that far ahead of it right now in my opinion.

I can see a potential benefit to the Premiership teams. That is those teams are guarranteed their revenue years in advance. For example a team like Cardiff would be in crisis mode right now if they were in the Premiership. But they can look for a new coach and take their time to rebuild without risking financial ruin (hopefully). That's a benefit to removing relegation.

But the downside is that the competition becomes far more boring for fans outside of the top 8 and I think that'll have a much bigger impact than they are expecting.

If relegation was to be scrapped could you see English clubs like Bristol looking for Pro 14 membership

prawnsambo · 23-01-2018 6:41pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

If relegation was to be scrapped could you see English clubs like Bristol looking for Pro 14 membership

That's a definite possibility.

irishbucsfan · 23-01-2018 6:42pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

If relegation was to be scrapped could you see English clubs like Bristol looking for Pro 14 membership

Bristol are founders and shareholders, I assume they would be in a 12-team Premiership.

The team who it seems would miss out are London Irish. There has been rumours about Pro 14 membership for them in the past but its a very difficult thing to make work because the RFU would need to approve it. Maybe one day it might be possible for London Welsh and London Irish to join, would certainly be an interesting experiment.

General Rugby Discussion II

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