#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

professore

erica74 wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Wow .... Lots of balanced and reasonable comments the last few pages. Would be interested to know how common catcalling and the like is in Ireland ... A lot has been said about parts of the Bay Area

Because all of the comments so far recounting experiences in Ireland aren't enough? We're on page 62.
Just by the way, I'm in Ireland and in my experience it is very common.
Why do the goalposts keep changing? Or should I say, why do you keep changing the goalposts?

A huge amount were about the bay area or NYC.

Zulu

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Lewinsky made a lot of money out of the Clinton scandal. As well as turning it into business ventures,

I understood that it destroyed her career, and she struggled with a number of failed ventures to reinvent herself and try to distance herself from it but to no avail?

LLMMLL

I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true. Sure theres not too many men hassling women during the daytime but add a bit of alcohol and it rockets.

A friend of mine was at a festival with a very attractive female friend and she had to ask him to act as a human shield against all the guys pressing up against her. And this was not a crowded dancefloor unavoidable shes-being-paranoid situation. He said it was like the walking dead with a bunch of guys basically mobbing her, staring, trying to.press up against her. One guy wasn't out and out groping her but tried to.keep body contact the whole time such as keeping his finger on her elbow. No matter where she moved he tried to have some physical contact at all times.

And I'm sure a lot of these guys weren't aware that 10 other guys were acting the same way turning it into a really awful situation for her. They probably think their own behaviour was absolutely fine. They fancied her, tried to get closer, tried to get her attention. Tried to get a bit of a grind on the dancefloor ah sire who hasn't done that etc. But would never behave badly towards a women oh no #notallmen.

The main message I'd like men to take away from #metoonisnthe sheer volume of harassment women face. That when you make your approach in daytime, or dance near a woman at nighttime that there are probably multiple other guys doing the same thing leading to very dodgy situations.

I think many guys use the excuse that because their behaviour is not that harrassy at the individual level and because they are not responsible for other people's behaviour that everything is fine. Like a tourist who takes a small piece of an ancient ruin as a memento. One tourist taking a piece of the Acropolis woulsnt have any effect. But every tourist decodes they want a piece of it then you have a problem.

Zulu

erica74 wrote: »

Just by the way, I'm in Ireland and in my experience it is very common.

Really? I mean, really?

I'm not questioning it happens, but I wonder about the frequency and the size of the problem. I wonder because in the past couple of decades, I don't remember overhearing a single instance of "cat calling", "wolf whistling", or "sexual street harassment" in that time. Now, granted, a handful of incidents may have occurred and been long forgotten but I struggle to believe I'd be that oblivious if it was as frequent as some may make out.

That said, I'd hasten to add, it shouldn't happen at all.

I also hasten to add that I've seen plenty of it in pubs and nightclubs over the years. There's plenty of drunken asshats that shouldn't drink (regardless of gender). And I'd be quick to distinguish between the two environments.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true.

...and I think your gender bias, sexism, and misandry are blatant.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true. Sure theres not too many men hassling women during the daytime but add a bit of alcohol and it rockets.

A friend of mine was at a festival with a very attractive female friend and she had to ask him to act as a human shield against all the guys pressing up against her. And this was not a crowded dancefloor unavoidable shes-being-paranoid situation. He said it was like the walking dead with a bunch of guys basically mobbing her, staring, trying to.press up against her. One guy wasn't out and out groping her but tried to.keep body contact the whole time such as keeping his finger on her elbow. No matter where she moved he tried to have some physical contact at all times.

At a festival where presumably, thousands of other men were present, NOT assaulting women?

Zulu

givyjoe wrote: »

At a festival where presumably, thousands of other men were present, NOT assaulting women?

Nah, it was a rape festival. Fupping animals.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

At a festival where presumably, thousands of other men were present, NOT assaulting women?

The excuses are already pouring in. This was a dancefloor in a small tent. Probably 100 people. And about ten guys suddenly crowded her like she had some weird gravitational pull. My friend who is stridently anti-feminist and hates band wagon jumping with a passion said he wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't seen it.

LLMMLL

Also the same girl I mentioned earlier who had to leave an area because a guy was harassing her was harassed in a taxi at the weekend. The taxi driver telling her about his much younger gf but he'd leave the gf to be with her if she wanted. This at 3am while she's alone in an enclosed space.

Can't wait to hear the excuses: ah sure taxi drivers aren't normal guys. They're all crazy. Your have to expect this stuff off them. Why hasn't she reported it to the taxi regulator etc. Etc.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

The excuses are already pouring in. This was a dancefloor in a small tent. Probably 100 people. And about ten guys suddenly crowded her like she had some weird gravitational pull. My friend who is stridently anti-feminist and hates band wagon jumping with a passion said he wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't seen it.

Sorry, what excuse did I make? And to be clear I am not defending anyone who would do such a thing, it's clearly wrong.

You stated that you doubt it's a tiny minority of men.. yet you referenced a festival where there were likely thousands, if not tens of thousands of men NOT assaulting women.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Sorry, what excuse did I make? And to be clear I am not defending anyone who do such a thing, it's clearly wrong.

You stated that you doubt it's a tiny minority of men.. yet you referenced a festival where there were likely thousands, if not tens of thousands of men NOT assaulting women.

I'm not saying 100%. But I think there's a significant minority of men who harrassy semi regularly and I think the majority of men have at least one or two incidents of low level harassment if they were actually honest with themselves.

Christy42

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true. Sure theres not too many men hassling women during the daytime but add a bit of alcohol and it rockets.

A friend of mine was at a festival with a very attractive female friend and she had to ask him to act as a human shield against all the guys pressing up against her. And this was not a crowded dancefloor unavoidable shes-being-paranoid situation. He said it was like the walking dead with a bunch of guys basically mobbing her, staring, trying to.press up against her. One guy wasn't out and out groping her but tried to.keep body contact the whole time such as keeping his finger on her elbow. No matter where she moved he tried to have some physical contact at all times.

And I'm sure a lot of these guys weren't aware that 10 other guys were acting the same way turning it into a really awful situation for her. They probably think their own behaviour was absolutely fine. They fancied her, tried to get closer, tried to get her attention. Tried to get a bit of a grind on the dancefloor ah sire who hasn't done that etc. But would never behave badly towards a women oh no #notallmen.

The main message I'd like men to take away from #metoonisnthe sheer volume of harassment women face. That when you make your approach in daytime, or dance near a woman at nighttime that there are probably multiple other guys doing the same thing leading to very dodgy situations.

I think many guys use the excuse that because their behaviour is not that harrassy at the individual level and because they are not responsible for other people's behaviour that everything is fine. Like a tourist who takes a small piece of an ancient ruin as a memento. One tourist taking a piece of the Acropolis woulsnt have any effect. But every tourist decodes they want a piece of it then you have a problem.

I think tiny should be defined.

There are certainly enough to make it an issue for a large proportion of women.

However I have seen little evidence it is a majority of men doing it. So it depends what you mean by tiny. Whatever the number I feel like the number of victims alone are enough to justify this campaign and hopefully further actions which are needed.

Sorry but the phrasing rockets seems to indicate a large proportion of men are responsible which won't help matters. Certainly the tourist analogy where you talk about every tourist is suggestive of this.

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn't handwave it away first of all, and second of all because women aren't generally raised in isolated bubbles by themselves away from all men, I'm certainly not speaking from a position of ignorance. I'm quite aware of what women learn too from their parents, their peers, their friends, their co-workers and so on.

Are you seriously suggesting that your mother learned this from her mother -


Every man on a quiet street is a potential threat
Every man walking behind us could be a rapist
Men we don't know are threats
Men we do know are even bigger threats
The single biggest threat to women is men


I know that only a vanishingly small minority of women have ever thought that of men, and thought it long before your grandmothers time too.

I haven't replied to this because I'm starting to find the whole thread draining; but since it's still being brought up: Yes, I was taught this by my mother, and I have heard the same from women around the globe.

Girls are taught to keep an eye out on the street for men following them. We are taught to be aware of men hanging around in places like car parks; we are often advised to keep our keys in our hand as we walk to our car so they can be used as a weapon.

You've seen it on threads here - a woman meets a man on a night out and he (or as in a recent case, one of his friends) rapes her: immediately people jump on her behaviour and ask why she went with him what did she expect would happen going off with a man she doesn't know? Which teaches us that we can't trust men that we don't know.

However, statistics tell us that most sexual assaults are perpetrated by someone know to the victim. This means that those of you who have daughters: she's in more danger from an uncle, a cousin, or a family friend than the bogeyman rapist in a dark alley. So we can't really trust men we do know either.

As for the biggest threat to women being men, I can't find statistics for that at the minute, but I had thought I read it somewhere. I did find a study stating that the number one cause of death in pregnant women is murder.

As for the getting yelled at out of cars, or crass remarks in the street; it may not be a daily occurance, but it can certainly be a weekly one more frequent in warmer weather, and not confined to a certain socio-economic background. The problem with 'sure, it's not like assault' is that that attitude does nothing to stop it. And it is relentless, and it is mainly focussed at young women who are most effected by it emotionally. It dehumanises you. It tells you that you can't even walk to the shop without some men feeling like they have the right to shout 'nice tits' when all you wanted was to buy a litre of milk and go about your day.

I know that there are men here wondering what the problem is; sure, they'd love someone to compliment their bum as they went about their day, but I guarantee that it would get old fast, especially if it started, as it does for girls, when they were 11 or 12. The constant barrage of 'show us your tits', 'you'd look pretty if you smiled', 'hey you, lady! Fck you then, bitch' grinds you down and wears you out, and is a reminder that to a large minority of men you are meat that is there for them to look at, ogle, fondle, and above all pay attention to like they are whiny babies and they will turn nasty if you don't.

And if you think that's crap then you have no fcking idea what you're talking about.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

...majority of men have at least one or two incidents of low level harassment if they were actually honest with themselves.

So the majority then. :rolleyes:
And this extends across the globe obviously - so you're referencing 50% of the population, right?


You acknowledge that if you throw a wide enough net you'll catch everything, right?
So selecting MEN as 50% of the global population, is going to net you a lot of bad things. The thing is, it's what bigots do. And there would appear to be a lot of bigots on this thread.

(please note, when you apply that to race, it's called racism.)

LLMMLL

Christy42 wrote: »

I think tiny should be defined.

There are certainly enough to make it an issue for a large proportion of women.

However I have seen little evidence it is a majority of men doing it. So it depends what you mean by tiny. Whatever the number I feel like the number of victims alone are enough to justify this campaign and hopefully further actions which are needed.

Sorry but the phrasing rockets seems to indicate a large proportion of men are responsible which won't help matters. Certainly the tourist analogy where you talk about every tourist is suggestive of this.

We all know it's impossible to define exact percentages. Especially with the lower level stuff that I'm describing. In my opinion the number of sober harassers would be in the 1-10 percent range. The number that harrassy regularly when drunk is in the 20-25 percent area and the number who have at least one drunken incident where they harassed a woman is in the 50-70 range.

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

So the majority then. :rolleyes:
And this extends across the globe obviously - so you're referencing 50% of the population, right?

Yeah I think over 50% of men have at least one incident of harassment in their lives. Probably while drunk and probably something they don't acknowledge to themselves and never will.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm not saying 100%. But I think there's a significant minority of men who harrassy semi regularly and I think the majority of men have at least one or two incidents of low level harassment if they were actually honest with themselves.

There we have it.. you think based on zero statistical data and completely on personal experience.

I don't think it is anything other than a tiny minority, but I also believe that the number of reported and (estimated number of unreported cases) of sex crimes against women by men.. (In Ireland) still make the proportion of men committing these crimes to be what would be considered a statistically a tiny minority.

Again, just to be clear. It's wrong, it shouldn't happen and there no excuses for it.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yeah I think over 50% of men have at least one incident of harassment in their lives. Probably while drunk and probably something they don't acknowledge to themselves and never will.

And what numbers would you care to pull out of your arse for the other 50% of the population (women)?

B0jangles

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That wasn't the comparison. The comparison was you suggesting I would always be arguing from a position of ignorance, while you assumed to be able to speak for the experiences of as you put it - "the vast majority of women". You simply cannot speak for anyone else's experiences but your own. Just because of your shared anatomy doesn't give you any more insight into the life of another woman outside of yourself. You really can't speak as to the experiences of the vast majority of women, and of course when you put that out there, people are entitled to question it rather than just listen and believe, particularly when your experience as a woman is in no way representative at all of the women in their lives. Just to give you one example - what you say you learned growing up and what you learned from your grandmother is nothing like what my sister learned growing up. It's nothing like what the vast majority of my friends learned growing up. Yours is without a doubt a completely different life to theirs, and I'm not just saying that to be argumentative or to make a point for the sake of making a point. I'm saying it because as much as you like to think that by virtue of the fact that you are a woman, does not mean that the vast majority of women have experienced anything or even close to anything like your experiences. They have their own minds and their own experiences, and this used to be acknowledged when women reminded men that they are not of a hive mind, and yet, well, here we are. We're now expected to listen and believe when we're told that women are a hive mind after all, and coincidentally enough, most of them just happen to think the same way you do. I've known enough women well enough throughout my life to know that simply isn't true. It's an idea that completely ignores the reality that people are actually individuals, not clones of each other based upon their sex.

And I never claimed I knew what it was like to live as a woman, I simply pointed out that the idea that you can claim your experiences are representative of the majority of women, while it may well be subjectively true as far as you're concerned, it's certainly nowhere near objectively true as far as reality is concerned. Whether you'd try and explain men's experiences to them was really neither here nor there, as I wasn't trying to explain your experiences to you, I was attempting to explain to you that your experiences aren't nearly as universal as you want to believe they are. You can continue to believe it of course and more power to you if that's what gets you through the day. I don't have to believe it though - goes back to the whole reason why I disagreed with you earlier when you said that nobody is entitled to be listened to, but you had exceptions. I don't.

I never told you any such thing. In fact I've always advocated quite the opposite -


From here: http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057710031/37/#post102767140


As for why I think I have any insight at all, well I don't owe you an explanation. Pissing contests really aren't my thing. I can object to your claim by showing where it's fallacious without needing to go into laying out my own personal experiences, by simply demonstrating using the experiences of other women that your experiences as a woman are nowhere near as universal as you assume your experiences to be.


I didn't say you personally had an extremist ideology, I was referring to the idea of extremist ideologies in general. That you agree with kylith was really neither here nor there because what I was commenting on was the extremity of the ideology itself, the idea that men are the scourge of woman, that they are the greatest threat to women. I really don't have any interest in making it personally about either yourself or kylith, and I'm not taking what kylith said personally. I'm not taking it personally for the simple reason that it's crap. I'm not contradicting kylith's experiences that she made in her post, I'm not contradicting your experiences, I'm not explaining any woman's experiences to them. I absolutely believe your experiences, but what I don't have to believe, are your opinions, particularly when your opinions consist of a belief that is simply objectively untrue and without foundation or any credible evidence of any sort.

I'm not trying to be flippant, but is this not just a very long-winded way of saying that neither you nor I have perfect knowledge of anyone's life but our own?

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

There we have it.. you think based on zero statistical data and completely on personal experience.

I don't think it is anything other than a tiny minority, but I also believe that the number of reported and (estimated number of unreported cases) of sex crimes against women by men.. (In Ireland) still make the proportion of men committing these crimes to be what would be considered a statistically a tiny minority.

Again, just to be clear. It's wrong, it shouldn't happen and there no excuses for it.

I'm clearly not talking about sex crimes. I've mentioned lower level harassment numerous times.

Yes it's my experience but the reason I think it's not a simple case of me having one experience and you having another is that you only really notice these things if you take notice of them. They're very easy to ignkre.

I had no idea this stuff went on until I read an article and the comments beneath the article were full of these stories.

I then mentioned it to female friends asking if they'd been harassed. The vast majority said no. I then said "oh so you've never been followed home, approached on the bus, been groped, called a **** for.not responding favoirably to a come on". Every single one of them was like "oh yeah but you get used to all that"

I then started to notice it. Guys trying to strike up conversations on public transport while a girl angles her whole body away from him. Drunk guys screaming at passing women and insulting them when the woman doesn't acknowledge said scream etc.

And the anti-feminist friend I mentioned used to laugh at me about all this stuff but is now.in complete agreement having witnessed it all after I sensitised him to it. Now I laugh at him about how he used to call me crazy and is now in 100% agreement with me.

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

And what numbers would you care to pull out of your arse for the other 50% of the population (women)?

Well I don't hear the experiences of many men on this. I've personally been groped by one woman. And when I do hear the experiences of men (usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable) they usually have one particular incident in mind so I'd say a negligible percentage of sober female harassers and maybe 1-10 percent of drunken female harassers having done one dodgy male harassment.

One eyed Jack

kylith wrote: »

And if you think that's crap then you have no fcking idea what you're talking about.

Not going to quote the whole post, but just wanted to say that no, of course it's not crap, and I absolutely do know, and understand well what you're talking about. Where I disagreed with your post, was simply the idea you were trying to put out there that men are the greatest threat to women.

There was no reasoning for it, there was no qualification for it, there was nothing to back it up only your belief which I was given to understand was based upon your experience and the experiences of those women you're aware of who have experienced the same behaviours and attitudes from men as you have. I could absolutely understand why you would feel that way or might think that way on that basis, but I don't have to pretend it's an opinion that's any way reasonable or worthy of being taken seriously.

duadara mentioned that I'd struggle to find a woman who hadn't experienced intimidation from men at some point in her life. Now even allowing for that bar that's so low that we're talking about women who have felt intimidated by men as an issue which men should be made aware of, I still wouldn't struggle at all to find plenty of women who have never experienced feeling intimidated by men, and would laugh at the very idea of it and think I really had gone and finally lost my marbles.

Women themselves, wouldn't be able to take that standard that's as low as that, seriously either. Is the problem still one that women aren't taken seriously by men? No, the problem was always that some people aren't taken seriously by most people, and when those people come out with inflammatory and divisive statements, that merely serves to have people take them even less seriously than there was any chance they might have been listened to before then.

lazybones32

LLMMLL wrote: »

Can't wait to hear the excuses: ah sure taxi drivers aren't normal guys. They're all crazy. Your have to expect this stuff off them. Why hasn't she reported it to the taxi regulator etc. Etc.

This is the point of the opposition to #metoo: if a taxi driver made those comments, would the correct course of action be a) inform the Gardai, b) inform the Gardai and then complain to the taxi regulator or c) go on twitter to share your vague experience so more men will start to change society and human nature on your behalf?
I'd really like your answer on that please.

LLMMLL

lazybones32 wrote: »

This is the point of the opposition to #metoo: if a taxi driver made those comments, would the correct course of action be a) inform the Gardai, b) inform the Gardai and then complain to the taxi regulator or c) go on twitter to share your vague experience so more men will start to change society and human nature on your behalf?
I'd really like your answer on that please.

Subjectively, It's up to woman to decide the "correct" course of action for her. Many people, men and women, don't like to make that kind of official fuss. The women posting on metoo aren't looking for some kind of official sanction. They're just sharing their experiences.

Objectively, as in "what's the best way to achieve the perceived goal of metoo" then reporting to the regulator would maybe result in a fine which may be publicised in the regulator's report a year later with most men dismissing it as an isolated incident. Metoo shows the volume of these incidents. They are not isolated. So it has a vital role.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

...(usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable)

The fact you needed to shoehorn that into your response is very telling; your intolerance is telling.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

... reporting to the regulator would maybe result in a fine which may be publicised in the regulator's report a year later with most men dismissing it as an isolated incident. Metoo shows the volume of these incidents. They are not isolated. So it has a vital role.

So imposing an actual financial penalty on the guilty party, and publicly naming and shaming that guilty person, is less favourable to a twitter campaign aimed an noone in particular?

Ok.

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

The fact you needed to shoehorn that into your response is very telling; your intolerance is telling.

It wasnt shoehorned it. I'm clearly stating that the men on this thread recounting their one incident of female harassment to try to portray themselves as facing similar issues to women who have recounted multiple instances are laughable.

lazybones32

@LLMMLL
What a load of crap...are you involved in politics in some shape or form? You have an ability to address an issue with waffle while avoiding the Q.

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

So imposing an actual financial penalty on the guilty party, and publicly naming and shaming that guilty person, is less favourable to a twitter campaign aimed an noone in particular?

Ok.

The financial penalty might stop that taxi driver doing it again. Maybe some other taxi drivers might be influenced to monitor their behaviour. Most men woild dismiss it as an isolated incident and not associate it with their own bad behavioir.

Metoo highlights that these issues are pervasive and part of a larger pattern.

Both official reporting (if that's an option, no man will be prosecuted for walking down the street after a woman trying to talk to her) and metoo have their parts to play.

But the whole idea of "she didn't report it therefore metoo is attention seeking and I won't listen to it" is nonsense.

Why not.just admit that this was a ****ty thing to happen to her whether she reported it or not.

LLMMLL

lazybones32 wrote: »

@LLMMLL
What a load of crap...are you involved in politics in some shape or form? You have an ability to address an issue with waffle while avoiding the Q.

Can you be specific about what questions I've avoided? Or are you just annoyed that I don't agree with you.

Just had a look at the previous page where I was asked 2 direct questions and answered them both directly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯