#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

B0jangles

Zulu wrote: »

No, not at all. Just don't blame men, or all men, or a majority of men.

Who is blaming all men?

Do you really need a footnote in every single post specifying that all men are not to blame for the actions of some men?

I've noticed that it does seem to be your primary concern here, right down to digging into other posters accounts of being assaulted or harassed to get them to clarify that they were only assaulted by some of the men there, not all of the men.

take everything

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Well, with regards to 'fondling' I don't believe that any of the idiots that fondle a woman in public thinks "it's ok" to do it and again, if they were seen doing it they would be approached. It's seriously scorned upon and would most likely get someone thrown out of club, beaten or (if in public) arrested. The other way around though and it would be laughed at. Amazes me that women in western society moan about such things in the context of it only happening them and it needing to stop given how it's so socially acceptable when it happens guys.

As for cat calling, where do they get ir from that it's 'okay'? Well, maybe they watch Loose Women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwEN3uZEpp0

Cilla's quite funny in that.

kylith

Zulu wrote: »

No, not at all. Just don't be so lazy (or hateful) to blame men, or all men, or a majority of men. Thats all.

In fairness, Zulu, the issue with men, or rather a lot of men, is that they simply don't believe that it happens. A blinkered mentality kicks is where they can't conceive of something happening unless they see it with their own eyes, so while they might occasionally see a woman getting hassled on the bus they don't realise that that woman got hassled at the bus stop too, and in the supermarket, and at the gym, and that it happens 4 days a week, every week, for years.

Most men just don't realise how much this pervades women's lives and therefore they refuse to see what they see as an occasional 'howya darlin'' as a problem, and refuse to believe women when they say it is.
After all, if some men are doing it, but the majority of women are experiencing it, then those few men must be a hell of an issue, yeah?
Some men hassle women, a lot more men don't realise how much of a problem this is.

Zulu

B0jangles wrote: »

Who is blaming all men?

Blaming "men" places the blame on all men.

I've noticed that it does seem to be your primary concern here

What's wrong with that? Should I shut-up and put-up with it? Is that it? I despise bigotry in all forms. Be it racism, sexism, whatever.

right down to digging into other posters accounts of being assaulted or harassed to get them to clarify that they were only assaulted by some of the men there, not all of the men.

Your tone and language is telling. If by "digging" you mean to say that I queried and sought clarification, you're right. That's how conversations work. Clearly you don't agree.

Challenging stuff trying to have a meaningful conversation when you can't question.

Zulu

kylith wrote: »

In fairness, Zulu, the issue with men, or rather a lot of men, is that they simply don't believe that it happens. A blinkered mentality ...

In fairness kylith it comes down to experience.
I know it happens, but I doubt it happens as much as some would have me believe. I doubt it because I walk through Dublin city centre for over 80 mins every single day. I work in an office in Dublin city centre for over 8 hours every single work day. I live and breathe this city, and I simply dont see "cat calls" or "wolf whistles" or "street sex harrasment".

It happens, I've no doubt. I believe what people tell me to an extent. But unless I'm this unique presence that silences the jerks, it's not happening around me. And that makes it very hard for me to accept its this massive societal problem (in Dublin at least).

B0jangles

Zulu wrote: »

Blaming "men" places the blame on all men.

What's wrong with that? Should I shut-up and put-up with it? Is that it? I despise bigotry in all forms. Be it racism, sexism, whatever.

Your tone and language is telling. If by "digging" you mean to say that I queried and sought clarification, you're right. That's how conversations work. Clearly you don't agree.

Challenging stuff trying to have a meaningful conversation when you can't question.

You appear to have no interest in hearing about, expressing any concern about, or combatting the actual harassment women face, your only concern appears to be for any possibility of men being blamed in any way.

Your objection to bigotry and sexism seems to have a remarkably narrow focus.

edit: Good heavens, you actually still doubt that such harassment is widespread and common because you personally don't see it happen?

Zulu

B0jangles wrote: »

You appear to have no interest in hearing about

Nope, you're just misrepresenting me, and taking from my posts what suits your agenda.

kylith

Zulu wrote: »

In fairness kylith it comes down to experience.
I know it happens, but I doubt it happens as much as some would have me believe. I doubt it because I walk through Dublin city centre for over 80 mins every single day. I work in an office in Dublin city centre for over 8 hours every single work day. I live and breathe this city, and I simply dont see "cat calls" or "wolf whistles" or "street sex harrasment".

It happens, I've no doubt. I believe what people tell me to an extent. But unless I'm this unique presence that silences the jerks, it's not happening around me. And that makes it very hard for me to accept its this massive societal problem (in Dublin at least).

That's exactly my point. You don't see it, so you don't believe that it's as common as it is. And dozens of women on Boards and thousands of women worldwide saying that it happens won't sway you, because you don't see it so you don't believe it.

B0jangles

Zulu wrote: »

Nope, you're just misrepresenting me, and taking from my posts what suits your agenda.

I know nothing about you except what you choose to reveal about yourself in your posts and at a rough estimate 90% of your posts in this thread have been about whether or not all men are being blamed for the problem.

Like it or not, that does say something about where your primary concern lies.

kunst nugget

kylith wrote: »

That's exactly my point. You don't see it, so you don't believe that it's as common as it is. And dozens of women on Boards and thousands of women worldwide saying that it happens won't sway you, because you don't see it so you don't believe it.

I would have thought Dublin and Ireland would have had a mild level of street harassment compared to other countries. A Brisbane emigrant comments on it in this 'New to the Parish' piece for the IT…

Emma Greenbury had spent less than a month in her new home when it occurred to her that she had never experienced harassment on the streets of Dublin. Accustomed to incessant catcalls when walking through Brisbane, Greenbury had learned to keep her eyes on the pavement and block out the crude, sexually charged remarks men of all ages would shout as she made her way to work.

“It’s just an attitude that men have in Australia – that they can say things to women and won’t get in trouble because it’s the girls’ fault for wearing certain clothing. But it doesn’t even matter what you wear, I could be wearing a jumper and tracksuit pants, men always objectify you. Even my 64-year-old mother gets harassed on the street daily.

“As a woman in Australia you just learn to live with it, you get on with things. But men in Ireland treat women with such respect. I’ve never been objectified by a man here and I feel a lot more empowered now when I go back to Australia to say something.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/in-ireland-men-treat-women-with-such-respect-i-ve-never-been-objectified-here-1.3079729

Anecdotal for sure but I don't think Ireland has the same exaggerated maschismo culture that exists in other countries where cat-calling and wolf-whistling would be a more commonplace problem. I genuinely don't think the poster is trying to be blinkered about it.

That isn't to say we don't have our share of creeps.

Outlaw Pete

B0jangles wrote: »

So why bring it up in a discussion which is focussed largely on women talking about sexual harassment? Why say:

I gave my reasoning already: it happens both genders and so to moan about it happening to the one gender (the gender society finds it unacceptable to do it to) is a bit rich.

Do you think women should just shut up and put up with being harassed and sexually assaulted until men are ready and able to be as vocal about not wanting to assaulted either?

No, they should "just shut up" talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.

btw, I have to laugh at you calling my response a 'rant' - not everyone is as angry when they post as you appear to be...

Not anger, just passion.

B0jangles

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I gave my reasoning already: it happens both genders and so to moan about it happening to the one gender (the gender society finds it unacceptable to do it to) is a bit rich.


No, they should "just shut up" talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.

Not anger, just passion.

Soo... you think it's a bit rich for women to complain about street harassment and sexual assault because men don't complain about it?

And women should only talk about incidents that achieve your personal standard of what constitutes harassment/sexual assault?

Wow.

Outlaw Pete

B0jangles wrote: »

Soo... you think it's a bit rich for women to complain about street harassment and sexual assault because men don't complain about it?

lol. I literally just said:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

No, they should "just shut up" (your words by the way) talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.

And yet straight away you talked about street harassment and being sexually assaulted in the same breath. It appears to be a hallmark of your posts to misrepresent users, not just myself but others to, and all in an effort to garner some backslaps it would appear. Why not try and retort something someone has actually said rather than strawmanning them.

And women should only talk about incidents that achieve your personal standard of what constitutes harassment/sexual assault?

And yet more miscomprehension. I did not say that or anything like it. What I said was:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Amazes me that women in western society moan about such things in the context of it only happening them and it needing to stop given how it's so socially acceptable when it happens guys.

In other words: complain about catcalling, street harassment, being groped in clubs, leered at etc etc, all day long for all I care, but quit doing so in the context that it only happens women, or indeed that only men do it, cause that's far from the case.


https://twitter.com/TheEllenShow/status/923230978419474434

B0jangles

I'm honestly struggling to see what point you're trying to make

Do you object to seeing street harassment being grouped with sexual assault? If so why? They exist on the same basic continuum, and one sometimes turns into the other.

Do you object to women complaining about being harassed or sexually assaulted because they don't in the same breath point out that men get sexually assaulted too?

Are you really that precious?


That's quite a sneaky bit of editing you did there:

No, they should "just shut up" talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.

Is what was there when I quoted you.

No, they should "just shut up" (your words by the way) talking about being leered at in the same breath as being sexual assaulted. That'd do me.

What's apparently there when you quote yourself.

Zulu

B0jangles wrote: »

I'm honestly struggling to see what point you're trying to make
...

well that's little wonder when you consistently misrepresent others and their posts. Sure it'd be nothing short of a miracle if you could.

B0jangles

Zulu wrote: »

well that's little wonder when you consistently misrepresent others and their posts. Sure it'd be nothing short of a miracle if you could.

He says while quoting me out of context in order to make his zinger.

That's pretty funny.

RabbleRouser2k

professore wrote: »

Maybe from their mammies idolising them and telling them they can do no wrong?

I'd argue the daddies of Ireland have done something similar with daughters. I've seen more than my fair share. With one tearaway who's landlord finally got sick of her violating the rules of her accomodation, and called in her dad. (Got evicted).

Another had a house party where the guests ripped out the plumbing, but her dad was loaded-so he paid for the damages. She was really hyperactive, met her a few times, seemed to live on caffeine. (Yes, also evicted).

Seems like both sides are culpable, just one get blamed, and one doesn't. (And it's running theme among these extreme feminists that 'men are bad because they're not like daddy')

Will I Am Not

So who’s winning the great, big internet battle of the genders today? That’s the important thing right?

RabbleRouser2k

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

So who’s winning the great, big internet battle of the genders today? That’s the important thing right?

Depends-there's more than one gender, right?

Will I Am Not

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Depends-there's more than one gender, right?

Royal rumble?

One eyed Jack

kylith wrote: »

But don't you see that brushing one off can lead to the other?

In fairness now, I didn't brush anything off. I said I wouldn't equate the two circumstances, and that's taking them at face value. It's also entirely plausible that the young millennial who is constantly groped on nights out is traumatised by her experiences, whereas the isolated old lady is as tough as old boots and will tell you that was just 'the way it was' in her experience, she doesn't regard it as anything to be fussed about, she'd rather you just shut up about it and deal another hand of gin rummy while she reminisces about when she herself was a young girl and she has plenty of good memories!

The point is - everyone's experiences are relative. I wouldn't brush either off, but I'm not immediately going to be out with the tea and biscuits either, that's just not who I am as a person. I don't have to be asked to listen, I do already. Just because I haven't explicitly said something, doesn't mean I don't care at all. It just means I'm listening.

kylith wrote: »

The men perpetrating sexual violence against that isolated old woman didn't start as rapists. They started with catcalling in the street and laughing about it with their mates. They started with sticking their hand up a dress in a pub. They started with following a woman down the street yelling at her first for attention and then calling her a bitch.

Most men who even do that won't escalate , to rape, but rape in engendered by the idea that men have a right to women; to their bodies and to their attention, and for some men that will escalate from groping on the dance floor.

What they started out as, were respectable members of the community, who were utter fcuking monsters behind closed doors. See when I'm thinking of my examples, I'm drawing from the lived experiences of real women too. I have no interest in talking about whataboutery or 'reverse the genders' crap. We're talking about women's experiences here and I have plenty I can draw on. The men in many women's experiences that I have talked to didn't at all start out cat-calling and low-level harassing or any of the rest of it. There was no 'escalation'.

They are a minority of men, and when I say a minority, I mean the estimates we have for that kind of behaviour is generally around the 7% mark. That's 93% of men who do not, and never have, and never will engage in such behaviour. Still think your opinion was a fair and objective assessment of men? The chances are you're unlikely to change your mind because lived experience and anecdotes that we can relate to outstrips statistics by more than a couple of country miles. You think there are thousands of women coming forward with their stories of sexual harassment and men generally being a pain in the hole to women, well that simply ignores the fact that just in Ireland alone, there are millions of women, and young girls. What I'm saying is that if you put those figures in perspective, there really aren't the numbers of women subjected daily to men sexually harassing them and generally being a pain in the hole, and the numbers of women who experience far more than being groped or cat-called as they're walking down the street, is even less than that again.

It's still wrong, and it shouldn't happen, and women are right to speak up for themselves, but people are not obliged to listen, and they're even less likely to listen when the equivalence is made between being cat-called, and being raped. That's escalating. No, everything isn't "on a spectrum", and there are marked differences between many different circumstances.

kylith wrote: »

No, it may make no difference to some people, but if good men see their friends acting inappropriately and say something, just something like 'Jesus, Steve, stop hassling her'. If Steve's mates don't approve of what he's doing and say it to him he's more likely to stop doing it.

You know the old adage 'birds of a feather'? Well the same applies to people. They tend to gravitate towards people who are like them, and so generally the men who are engaging in that sort of behaviour will share a similar mindset with men who are just like them. They aren't going to be pulling their mates up on behaviour which you feel is inappropriate, because the group-think in their group, sees you as the problem, not any of them.

kylith wrote: »

And even if you don't equate groping to rape; how would you feel if every time you went out random strangers thought it was ok to grab your penis?

You really are asking the wrong person that question, because I made a very good living at it at one point in my life :pac:

Look, I do take your point, but you assume that asking me that question means I'm supposed to say "I wouldn't like it", and if I'm being truthful with you the answer is that it depends on whether I actually find said random stranger attractive or not. I generally don't tend to find gay men attractive, so even when they do engage in some unwelcome groping, I'm able to handle myself so I'm not as threatened by it as you would be if a man were doing the same to you. That's why reversing the genders is a stupid argument - you're completely changing the circumstances and changing what actually happened, into a hypothetical, and we both know hypotheticals can go anywhere!

However, because I understand that you're not me, and given your experiences you've given in this thread so far, I would have no doubt that any unwanted attention would be far more intimidating for you than it would be for me, so I do get the point you were at least aiming for.

kylith wrote: »

Low level harassment leads to high level issues.

Yeah, about that. That used to be the general theory alright, or the traditionally held belief if you will, and that's how a number of men who were in the dock for their behaviour, their solicitors were able to argue that they themselves had experienced abuse as children so they couldn't have known any better. That was the generally accepted mitigating circumstances which often meant that in sentencing they received far more lenient sentences. If it hadn't been for researchers who actually questioned this belief, we would never be aware now that this simply isn't so - that far more men who committed rape didn't experience any abuse as children, that they actually came from decent family backgrounds (ok we still use the "he was a member of the GAA" here), but in other countries, people are really beginning to question the whole idea that was based on a belief in correlation = causation.

In short, low level harassment really doesn't always lead to high level issues, and high level issues aren't always the result of low level harassment. They're two very different things.

kylith wrote: »

We need to start at the bottom to change this. Women have to deal with stress from men (some men, apparently I have to make that clear every single time because gods forbid some bloke gets his feelings hurt) on an ongoing, daily, basis.

"I don't care that some women get their feelings hurt because my sense of entitlement is more important than their hurt feelings."

You see how that sounds? That's exactly how that came across, and that's why the same way you treat men with contempt, it shouldn't come as a surprise that you'll get the same in return when you want them to listen to you. That's still not me saying "what about the men?", I'm saying that you're making the point that men don't listen to women, and obviously you're hurt by that, and that's understandable. What's not so understandable is that you think men should listen to you, while at the same time you completely disregard how what you're saying may hurt men.

Personally, I couldn't give a shiny shyte either way when you come out with that stuff, I've heard worse, much, much worse, but as Bojangles made the point earlier about some women being able to handle the abuse they get, and some women aren't, so too are some men able to handle the abuse they get, and some men aren't. What makes your feelings any more valid than theirs that you feel you shouldn't have to consider their feelings while expecting consideration for how you feel?

kylith wrote: »

Pretending it's not an issue because it's not physical assault is a shtty thing to do.

That much at least, we can agree on.

But then, everything's an issue, and because people are individuals, they're going to prioritise issues that more to them, than prioritise the issues that matter to you, over their own. That's why they don't equate cat-calling with physical assault, not because it's a shítty thing to do, but because people generally don't view them as being in the same league.

kylith wrote: »

If you can instill in young men that disrespecting women is not acceptable you will likely see a drop in serious incidents when those men are of age.

That might sound perfectly logical in theory, but it has no basis in reality. The point being that no matter how much some men learn that disrespecting women is not acceptable, when they come of age they will have formed an opinion of women for themselves, and will act on that basis, not the basis of having learned all their lives that disrespecting women is not acceptable. If you can view men as a potential threat, then it shouldn't surprise you that there are men who view women as a potential threat. It has been instilled in you from a young age that men are a threat to you, so you've come to view men as a potential threat to you. I think it would be better for society if you were to examine your own attitude first before you start telling other people how to raise their children.

As it happens, I do have a young son, and in spite of seamus' poor car analogy (that's not what chivalry means to me at all!), I have always taught him to have respect for women. I have also taught him to have respect for men. Most importantly, I have taught him to have respect for himself. None of these are actually mutually exclusive. They are ideas that complement each other, rather than conflict with each other. It's presenting them in such a way as though they actually do conflict with each other is what causes people to experience cognitive dissonance.

Vela

I'm very conflicted about the whole thing, so I won't address it head-on yet. But one thing I am sure of, is the no woman should feel like they "have" to share their story now. The whole #metoo thing is fine, but not every woman who's experienced assault/abuse/harassment wants to relive that. Mostly, they just want to move on. Personally, I never read the articles about it, aside from checking the last few pages of this thread. As someone who was involved in a serious assault, I feel no need to tell the whole world on social media. In fact, I'd find it incredibly draining and painful to do that. The anxiety would be too much. Which also makes me question just how bad some of the women using this hashtag have been affected by things like catcalling etc. Catcalling sucks, yes. But will it change your life forever, no? I don't like the way lesser "crimes" such as a "hey babe" in the street are being discussed in the same context with serious sexual assault. So #metoo, isn't for me. But I am very much behind why it exists in the first place.

RabbleRouser2k

Vela wrote: »

I'm very conflicted about the whole thing, so I won't address it head-on yet. But one thing I am sure of, is the no woman should feel like they "have" to share their story now. The whole #metoo thing is fine, but not every woman who's experienced assault/abuse/harassment wants to relive that. Mostly, they just want to move on. Personally, I never read the articles about it, aside from checking the last few pages of this thread. As someone who was involved in a serious assault, I feel no need to tell the whole world on social media. In fact, I'd find it incredibly draining and painful to do that. The anxiety would be too much. Which also makes me question just how bad some of the women using this hashtag have been affected by things like catcalling etc. Catcalling sucks, yes. But will it change your life forever, no? I don't like the way lesser "crimes" such as a "hey babe" in the street are being discussed in the same context with serious sexual assault. So #metoo, isn't for me. But I am very much behind why it exists in the first place.

I am very sorry you had to experience that. Nobody should go through such an incident.
You don't have to share your story-that's yours to keep to yourself. And as many noted, those who cannot say it-that's fine. I would argue many people, myself included, respect your privacy.
I haven't experienced sexual abuse or assault. But I did experience bullying, stuff I didn't know how to deal with and still don't-as it seemed everyone and the teachers picked on me. I couldn't go into too much detail online either, not with my real name, for sure.
I also understand the anxiety rape, and sexual assault can cause, from speaking with others.
It's everyone's choice to speak out-but it's not your fault that it happened to you, and it's your own business what you wish to speak about.

seamus

kunst nugget wrote: »

I would have thought Dublin and Ireland would have had a mild level of street harassment compared to other countries. A Brisbane emigrant comments on it in this 'New to the Parish' piece for the IT…

I do think genuinely less harassment occurs publically in Ireland compared to other countries. Catholic guilt still teaches us that overtly sexual displays are wrong and shameful; for both men and women.

My wife went to college in London in the early 00's, and a couple of weeks in she commented about how up-front the English men were compared to the Irish. That they were not at all shy about coming up and talking to you, asking to buy a drink and then graciously going away when declined.
Compared to the Irishman's drunken drool on your shoulder followed by a vice-like grab of the arse before they go away, she thought it was great.

After a couple of months though, it wasn't so great. It was relentless. In the street, in shops, in bars, on public transport. Perfectly polite for the most part, but. Go. The. Fnck. Away. And. Leave. Me. Alone.

After that she was somewhat appreciative of the Irish repressed spirit.

But that's not to say women in Ireland "Have it good". Whether it's being constantly talked to in the street or groped in a pub by a drunkard, no-one should have to put up with either. The preferable scenario is that people could go about their day or go enjoy a drink in the pub without some randomer coming up and trying to chat them up, or grab their arse, or have a sneaky rub off their tits.

professore

I worked for a year with one of the most physically beautiful women - in fact the most beautiful - I have ever known. She was of southern latin Europe. She told me that Ireland was great because men didn't hassle her all the time like happened in her own country. She didn't say it NEVER happened, but a far cry from 7 days a week like other posters have claimed.

EDIT: Just asked my oldest daughter about this who is in college. She says this happens her and her friends all the time. More often when they are out at night but also during the day. Also she is the opposite of a radical feminist and has her head screwed on very tightly, definitely not someone to exaggerate about stuff like this. Wow. I really had no idea.

Things must be pretty bad where my friend comes from! I guess she is quite a bit older than my daughter so that probably plays a role.

professore

I think people - and I include myself here - are all guilty of seeing what is in their immediate vicinity and taking that as the way society works.

So if you are a middle aged man working in a professional environment like myself with educated people, you don't see harassment going on - not saying it's not going on one on one where you can't hear it, but it's not overt. So you think it's much ado about nothing. On the other hand, when you see people you know marriage breakups, rampant cheating, sex parties, swinging, etc you think everyone is at it. And it's not just men at it. Both genders are at it equally.

If you are a young woman on the other hand, it is thrust in your face (probably literally sometimes) . So you think all men are perverts and out to rape you.

No one talks about the vast majority of people who just get on with their daily lives, struggling to pay for kids, rent or mortgage and keeping the boss happy.

midlandsmissus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

LLMMLL already suggested/stated that it was near on impossible to follow up on the low level harassment... so It's completely illogical to start at the bottom with the areas that you believe can't be enforced.

- Register the extreme acts of harassment/abuse, form statistical proof, get the whole society behind it, and then Deal harshly with the extreme acts of harassment/abuse. Once that stain of behavior has been removed/severely limited, then turn to dealing with the lesser offenses.



I didn't pretend that it's not an issue. In fact, I have suggested a logical and reasonable step towards reducing this kind of behavior. start thinking of logical, reasonable steps to reduce this behavior without alienating either gender.



We've already had that attitude for decades. Gentleman? Our mothers usually taught us not to play so rough near girls, to respect them, to consider ourselves as their protectors. Movies, literature, the media, have all reinforced this attitude that men were supposed to protect women. What happens when a ship sinks? Women and children first. There are loads upon loads of other examples of how society places the welfare of women ahead of men.

Then "women"/society told us that they didn't want our protection and that behaving like a gentleman was sexist.

And even back when we were encouraged to behave like fine young gentlemen, and protect women, there were still ignorant ****s who harassed or abused women. Relying on society or culture is no longer as effective. There's been too much movement towards idividualism, non-conformist attitudes, etc.



Huh? The way your mind works is... interesting. Let me put it this way. I've known many women to lie, and many women to tell the truth. Telling a lie, exaggerating, etc are not gender based.



Maybe they would... if they were receiving harassment or abuse that is illegal.

And then we would be able to verify the claims, etc etc etc. Get's tiresome repeating the same thing.

Do you want change, or do you want to rant without any real change?



As for dog ****, the signs and enforced fines have worked wonders in my hometown. It does happen still, but very rarely.



Yup. I won't accept the fact... Because "your" experiences have not been proven to be true, there is no frame of reference for time, location, or circumstances.



You said all that... not me. I have from the beginning repeated the expectation that claims need to be verified before they can be considered.

Let me put it this way. Someone goes online and says she was raped by you. They tell everybody on the internet about how you stalked her, drugged hit her, abused her, and raped her. (You're innocent. You don't even know the girl). But for whatever reason, she has decided that you are a rapist. So she goes online ranting and raving about how you abused her, building up a following on twitter, and feminists online support her calling you a monster, and demanding that you be punished.

Under your logic, your innocence would be irrelevant, because we must believe that she was raped. Because she is female.

Wouldn't you prefer that she went to the police and that the matter be properly investigated? And you're proven innocent! Yay!. But your reputation is in ruins. Thousands of people online think you're still a rapist and the law was wrong. The girl gets a slap on the wrist for making a false claim and goes back to claiming that you abused her. She writes an ebook, and makes a fortune off your misery... and you'll live the rest of your life with the reputation that you might be a rapist.

This isn't about women as a gender lying. This isn't about men as a gender lying. This is about issues that ruin peoples lives. False claims do as much damage to innocents as the punishments meted out to the guilty. False Rape claims are a fact. They happen. Same with false claims for many other crimes.

All claims should be investigated and confirmed.

How could women report rape cases?
We have an 80% male government.
Many, many women were sexually assaulted. Very few cases resulted in conviction. Women were seen as second class citizens and had no where to turn.
I would just really like to get it through to you how it feels to be the physically weaker person, and know that many of the ones around you that are physically stronger than you and are meant to protect you, instead want to harm you.
Be sexually assaulted, know that the government is biased towards men , and know that there was absolutely no recourse for action.
That is the world we lived in. thank God, thank god it is finally changing.
It will take men to finally see women's suffering, say it is not OK anymore for it to stop happening

retro:electro

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How could women report rape cases?
We have an 80% male government.
Many, many women were sexually assaulted. Very few cases resulted in conviction. Women were seen as second class citizens and had no where to turn.
I would just really like to get it through to you how it feels to be the physically weaker person, and know that many of the ones around you that are physically stronger than you and are meant to protect you, instead want to harm you.
Be sexually assaulted, know that the government is biased towards men , and know that there was absolutely no recourse for action.
That is the world we lived in. thank God, thank god it is finally changing.
It will take men to finally see women's suffering, say it is not OK anymore for it to stop happening

I think that this is very hysterical if I'm honest. Look at all of the men in your life- can you honestly say that the majority of them are out to harm you? Why would you then think that this is the case for wider society? It's simply untrue- and you're working yourself up into a frenzy of unnecessary mass hysteria if this how you live your life. The amount of people around you who intend on harming you is in the absolute minority. I have had awful things happen to me at the hands of men- but I do not carry those incidents around with me and use them as a barometer from which I judge every action of every man. I take them as they were- unfortunate isolated events, that happened at the hands of a horrible person. I've had far more pleasant experiences with men than negative ones- so I believe that if I judged them on my negative experiences alone I would be judging them unfairly. Same with the women in my life.

Your post has more assumptions in it than Mother Most Holy.

laserlad2010

Initially I was frustrated with this campaign as it's just another big stick to beat straight white men with. To clarify - none of my friends behave this way (any more). I know, because I've occasionally stepped in and stopped potential bad behaviour. I've rebuked my friend for loudly commenting on a girls appearance late at night by equally loudly telling him "don't be a d1ck, she doesn't need that hassle, leave her off".

I'm no white knight, I'm no feminist, I just understand what it must feel like to feel vulnerable.

However, this campaign did spur me to talk to my girlfriend about her experiences. She told me lots of anecdotes about feeling uncomfortable. She was followed around the Pavilions in Swords last weekend by a guy who eventually offered to buy the dress she was trying out if she went for a coffee with him. When she told me, I was really sympathetic and listened to her. Inside, I was fcuking raging. I'd have seen red - just like if I'd seen lads harrassing young girls, or groping women on trains.

I'm representative of a lot of guys on this thread and in Irish society. We don't tolerate that behaviour. Being blamed for it frustrates us and that's why some of the backlash on this thread is present (some of it is bat**** Red Pill crazy stuff though). We don't want thanks for being decent, we just want to not feel guilty for having a set of balls:D:D

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How could women report rape cases?

Through the Police? Application of the law?

We have an 80% male government.

Relevance? Or is this a particularly sexist comment? Want more women in government, then encourage more women to run for the government and gain popular support.

Many, many women were sexually assaulted. Very few cases resulted in conviction. Women were seen as second class citizens and had no where to turn.

When are you talking about? 50 years ago? You really think women are being treated as second-class citizens in Ireland or other Western countries? Seriously?

I would just really like to get it through to you how it feels to be the physically weaker person, and know that many of the ones around you that are physically stronger than you and are meant to protect you, instead want to harm you.

Not all men are physically strong. I'm tall, and very skinny with a metabolism that makes gaining muscles an extremely difficult activity even with professional guidance. Being tall makes me a target. Being male makes me a target. Having a shaking disorder makes me a target. I've probably been exposed to far more threatening experiences, or actual fights than you have.

Men are targets too. Probably moreso than women in many situations. You at least have a portion of the male population to come to your aid. If I get into trouble, very few strangers are going to rush to my aid. And afterward when the police arrive, they'll assume that you were innocent of most types of behavior, whereas I wouldn't get that kind of consideration.

The difference between us is that I learned to defend myself. I was bullied and beaten up regularly in primary/secondary school, and later I was jumped by gangs on three different occasions. After I was hospitalized a few times, I swore it wouldn't happen again, and I took excessive amounts of classes in various unarmed combat classes.

You might find it interesting that I met some women who learned to fight extremely well against guys weighing three-four times their weight or twice their height. Just Stop being a victim. You do have a choice.

Be sexually assaulted, know that the government is biased towards men , and know that there was absolutely no recourse for action.

The government is biased towards men? Strange. I could swear that divorce settlements tend to favor women. Same with custody battles. Or sentencing of men vs women for similar crimes. Or... I could go on. Plenty of examples to show that you're talking out of your arse.

Regarding sexual assault, I don't know. Care you prove your assertions? I have an open mind and I'm willing to be educated. (links along with the claims)

That is the world we lived in. thank God, thank god it is finally changing. It will take men to finally see women's suffering, say it is not OK anymore for it to stop happening

It's been changing for quite some time now. Perhaps stop looking at the past and consider looking at the present?