#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

One eyed Jack

B0jangles wrote: »

I'm not trying to be flippant, but is this not just a very long-winded way of saying that neither you nor I have perfect knowledge of anyone's life but our own?

Well, when you put it like that... :pac:

But yeah, you're right, that's essentially what it boils down to, is that nobody can ever truly know what goes on in someone else's mind. Nobody else can ever truly know how other people process their experiences because there are both a number of internal and external influences over how people process their experiences.

That's why while I understand the concept of the metoo hashtag and women who have experienced the kind of behaviour they have from men, it's also important to recognise that twitter is a concentrated representation of women who also have the means and access to social media, whereas far more women, simply don't.

So while I can certainly appreciate the perspective of an affluent young millennial who constantly gets groped by men every night she goes out with her mates, I'm not going to equate that on any level with the isolated old woman who has endured a lifetime of sexual violence and torture at the hands of men.

They really are the very definition of worlds apart.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm clearly not talking about sex crimes. I've mentioned lower level harassment numerous times.

Yes it's my experience but the reason I think it's not a simple case of me having one experience and you having another is that you only really notice these things if you take notice of them. They're very easy to ignkre.

I had no idea this stuff went on until I read an article and the comments beneath the article were full of these stories.

I then mentioned it to female friends asking if they'd been harassed. The vast majority said no. I then said "oh so you've never been followed home, approached on the bus, been groped, called a **** for.not responding favoirably to a come on". Every single one of them was like "oh yeah but you get used to all that"

I then started to notice it. Guys trying to strike up conversations on public transport while a girl angles her whole body away from him. Drunk guys screaming at passing women and insulting them when the woman doesn't acknowledge said scream etc.

And the anti-feminist friend I mentioned used to laugh at me about all this stuff but is now.in complete agreement having witnessed it all after I sensitised him to it. Now I laugh at him about how he used to call me crazy and is now in 100% agreement with me.

Absolutely none of the above backs up the your claim that this anything other than a small, tiny minority of men. 2 people have come to an agreement, based on personal experience.. that over 50% have at some point harassed women. That is an utterly ludicrous proposition.

It's also not clear that you are NOT referring to sex crimes.. when you described a situation where a girl was being groped at a festival.

Someone else asked you, I may have missed the answer? What proportion of women do you GUESS are guilty of similar harassment? i.e. abusing random male strangers or giving unwanted attention in a bar/nightclub situation?

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Absolutely none of the above backs up the your claim that this anything other than a small, tiny minority of men. 2 people have come to an agreement, based on personal experience.. that over 50% have at some point harassed women. That is an utterly ludicrous proposition.

It's also not clear that you are NOT referring to sex crimes.. when you described a situation where a girl was being groped at a festival.

Someone else asked you, I may have missed the answer? What proportion of women do you GUESS are guilty of similar harassment? i.e. abusing random male strangers or giving unwanted attention in a bar/nightclub situation?

You did indeed miss the answer. Look at the previous page.

My claim is that if you pay attention rather than minimizing "why didn't she report it" "oh they just have been skanger" etc. You'd actually see this behaviour regularly, mostly in a drunken context.

It's not a case of proving it to you with stats. That's never going to happen.

And how much success would a girl have with a garda with a report that ten indivodual guys got the same idea to crack onto her in a creepy way, with one guy keeping his finger on her elbow constantly. I can see that leading to a prosecution. Not every harassment behavioir can be dealt with by harassment laws. It's hard enough for women to deal with extreme harassment by law such as stalking.

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

So while I can certainly appreciate the perspective of an affluent young millennial who constantly gets groped by men every night she goes out with her mates, I'm not going to equate that on any level with the isolated old woman who has endured a lifetime of sexual violence and torture at the hands of men.

They really are the very definition of worlds apart.

But don't you see that brushing one off can lead to the other?

The men perpetrating sexual violence against that isolated old woman didn't start as rapists. They started with catcalling in the street and laughing about it with their mates. They started with sticking their hand up a dress in a pub. They started with following a woman down the street yelling at her first for attention and then calling her a bitch.

Most men who even do that won't escalate to rape, but rape in engendered by the idea that men have a right to women; to their bodies and to their attention, and for some men that will escalate from groping on the dance floor.

No, it may make no difference to some people, but if good men see their friends acting inappropriately and say something, just something like 'Jesus, Steve, stop hassling her'. If Steve's mates don't approve of what he's doing and say it to him he's more likely to stop doing it.

And even if you don't equate groping to rape; how would you feel if every time you went out random strangers thought it was ok to grab your penis?

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well I don't hear the experiences of many men on this. I've personally been groped by one woman. And when I do hear the experiences of men (usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable) they usually have one particular incident in mind so I'd say a negligible percentage of sober female harassers and maybe 1-10 percent of drunken female harassers having done one dodgy male harassment.

Well here's a few. I personally, have had happen (at least once):

- Verbally abused when I said not interested
- Crotch groped
- Ass grabbed
- Chest grabbed, pinched, rubbed
- Arms grabbed, pinched, rubbed
- Particularly drunk girl trying push myself and friend together to kiss for her viewing pleasure
- While I was very drunk in a group at a table, groped and then my jeans opened

A friend that I regularly go to bars with, almost every time has female attention, that he doesn't want, who will often persist with their advances.

I don't consider myself too much to look at, but I don't think it's a leap to say a better than average looking chap is likely to get more attention that other less attractive guys, therefore is also likely to get more UNWANTED and inappropriate attention.

carolmon

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

The problem I see with Lewinsky's situation is that by her own admission, she fell for her boss.


But for me, the #metoo hash tag represents someone who was left traumatised by 'the act'-whatever the act was (groping, harassment, rape etc) rather than the attention it drew.

As Lewinsky said, her relationship was consensual, there was no force or violence used. She may regret the relationship now, but does that constitute being included in the '#metoo' movement?

Maybe she's not talking about Bill Clinton?

Do you think it's possible that she may have experienced other harassment or abuse in her lifetime?

She does definitely acknowledge that the relationship with Bill was consensual so I actually doubt that the "metoo" refers to him.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Well here's a few. I personally, have had happen (at least once):

- Verbally abused when I said not interested
- Crotch groped
- Ass grabbed
- Chest grabbed, pinched, rubbed
- Arms grabbed, pinched, rubbed
- Particularly drunk girl trying push myself and friend together to kiss for her viewing pleasure
- While I was very drunk in a group at a table, groped and then my jeans opened

A friend that I regularly go to bars with, almost every time has female attention, that he doesn't want, who will often persist with their advances.

I don't consider myself too much to look at, but I don't think it's a leap to say a better than average looking chap is likely to get more attention that other less attractive guys, therefore is also likely to get more UNWANTED and inappropriate attention.

Absolutely those things are inappropriate behaviour by those women.

In relation to whether men face it as much as women:

Does every man you know have this happening on a regular basis?

How regular an occurrence is it for you personally. How many times this year have you been groped?

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

You did indeed miss the answer. Look at the previous page.

My claim is that if you pay attention rather than minimizing "why didn't she report it" "oh they just have been skanger" etc. You'd actually see this behaviour regularly, mostly in a drunken context.

It's not a case of proving it to you with stats. That's never going to happen.

And how much success would a girl have with a garda with a report that ten individual guys got the same idea to crack onto her in a creepy way, with one guy keeping his finger on her elbow constantly. I can see that leading to a prosecution. Not every harassment behaviour can be dealt with by harassment laws. It's hard enough for women to deal with extreme harassment by law such as stalking.

Funny, you seem to be completely missing the point put to you over and over and over. I've looked over the last page, I don't see your guess at a percentage of women guilty of harassing men. Feel free to post it again, it should be easy.. it's 2 digits.

You think you should be able to make an assertion that it isn't a tiny minority of men who harass in a way you described.. but sure you can never prove it with stats. Right, so I should just accept this should I?

I made no mention of 'why didn't she report it'.. NONE. The proportion of men guilty of this harassment, while drunk, may be higher than those who are not this harassment may be here higher and it may be more likely to happen in a bar.. but that still does not back up your claim that the vast, vast majority of men do NOT engage in this behaviour. Keep going with anecdotal stories all you like, it does not prove your point.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well I don't hear the experiences of many men on this. I've personally been groped by one woman. And when I do hear the experiences of men (usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable) they usually have one particular incident in mind so I'd say a negligible percentage of sober female harassers and maybe 1-10 percent of drunken female harassers having done one dodgy male harassment.

@givyjoe. Here is the post in question

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Absolutely those things are inappropriate behaviour by those women.

In relation to whether men face it as much as women:

Does every man you know have this happening on a regular basis?
How would I know, I haven't asked them. Even I had, what statistical relevance does it have? I know hundreds of men, should I go around conducting a survey?

How regular an occurrence is it for you personally. How many times this year have you been groped?
I've been out (in a bar/nighclub) probably a dozen times this year. So, at least half of those nights out I'd say.

I've answered your questions in line above.


I didn't claim this happens to men as much as women, I have no way of proving this one way or the other (It probably doesn't happen to men at the same level, or even close). What I didn't do however, was make a claim that is anything other than small minority of women doing this. I've only my own personal experience to draw from, as have you.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

I've answered your questions in line above.


I didn't claim this happens to men as much as women, I have no way of proving this one way or the other (It probably doesn't happen to men at the same level, or even close). What I didn't do however, was make a claim that is anything other than small minority of women doing this. I've only my own personal experience to draw from, as have you.

But if it has to be based on statistical evidence (which we both know well never get) you must have no opinion on whether it's a minority or a majority of men doing this.

All you have are the experiences of women posting on metoo. They suggest that a proportion of men harrassy women. They don't suggest whether it's a majority or a minority.

So why are you OK with someone suggesting it's a minority of men but outraged at me suggesting it's over 50% in certain situations?

If you're really only making conclusions based on evidence then you shoud be equally outraged at someone having the temerity to suggest from their personal experience that it's a minority of men doing this.

And I must say your nightclub experience is very different from mine. I'm pretty decent looking and am.approached by women pretty regularly. Usually telling me I have beautiful eyes. I've only been groped once. I'm very surprised it happens to you half the times you go out.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

It wasnt shoehorned it. I'm clearly stating that t...

You mentioned it in order to dismiss others experiences. It highlights your contempt and bigotry.

LLMMLL wrote: »

The financial penalty might stop that taxi driver doing it again. Maybe some other taxi drivers might be influenced to monitor their behaviour.

So it would be effective in dealing with the problem and the guilty parties...

Most men woild dismiss it as an isolated incident and not associate it with their own bad behavioir.

...but your not interested in that because, let's face it, all men are the problem - right?

You're a misandrist.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

But if it has to be based on statistical evidence (which we both know well never get) you must have no opinion on whether it's a minority or a majority of men doing this.

All you have are the experiences of women posting on metoo. They suggest that a proportion of men harrassy women. They don't suggest whether it's a majority or a minority.

So why are you OK with someone suggesting it's a minority of men but outraged at me suggesting it's over 50% in certain situations?

If you're really only making conclusions based on evidence then you shoud be equally outraged at someone having the temerity to suggest from their personal experience that it's a minority of men doing this.

And I must say your nightclub experience is very different from mine. I'm pretty decent looking and am.approached by women pretty regularly. Usually telling me I have beautiful eyes. I've only been groped once. I'm very surprised it happens to you half the times you go out.

If you can't see why I have, or should have, a problem with the majority of men (50% and over) being assumed to be harassers, there is no point debating the point with you.

Lets take your randomly plucked assertion of 50%, and imagine it's an assertion which places all women (sorry, 50% or more of them) as guilty of something universally agreed to be wrong or a 'bad thing'. Can you see why women would (understandably) be quite annoyed about their entire gender (sorry half) as guilty?

As for you doubting my experience... you were literally castigating other posters for doing precisely the same thing ,when doubting the frequency of their experiences. Pretty much undermines any points you're making.

Maybe you do have great eyes.. but I'm not surprised they haven't been groped :rolleyes:

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

You mentioned it in order to dismiss others experiences. It highlights your contempt and bigotry.

So it would be effective in dealing with the problem and the guilty parties... ...but your not interested in that because, let's face it, all men are the problem - right?

You're a misandrist.

I'm open to having my opinion changed on men's experiences of being harassed by women if they share them. Those that have shared them so far have usually mentioned that one time when a woman.....

I don't doubt those experiences but they're not the long list of weekly stuff that the women have been posting.

I'm not uninterested in women reporting a taxi driver that harasses them. If they choose to do that I would fully support them. They could also post it on metoo as well. One does not exclude the other. All I've said is that I understand that not every woman (or man) wants the hassle of making official reports about an incident. I've also said that posting on metoo is a valid way of raising the issue and can have positive consequences.

I'm not even going to deal.with the silly.misandrist comment.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

But if it has to be based on statistical evidence (which we both know well never get) you must have no opinion on whether it's a minority or a majority of men doing this. .

It has to be based on statistical evidence otherwise it's hearsay, and considered unreliable. We already know that women are harassed. That's been known for quite some time. Just as we know that women harass men, although it doesn't receive similar criticism. The belief that these statistics will not be collected comes down to the lack of official reports to support these claims of "widespread" harassment.

If this is a movement to bring about real change for women (and men), and to reduce the harassment that they receive, then it needs to move beyond the twitter or forums and become official. Hence for the need for women to submit reports, for those reports to be verified, and then any possible resistance can be overcome.

It's exactly the same for men. Domestic abuse against men is starting to gain attention but only because more men are reporting it happening, the statistics are being generated, and it's harder for those who don't want changes to occur, to block it.

That's why the metoo movement needs to move beyond unverified contributions, and women need to actually report the behavior of the men who are behaving in such a terrible manner. Men need to do the same if that behavior is considered unacceptable.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

If you can't see why I have, or should have, a problem with the majority of men (50% and over) being assumed to be harassers, there is no point debating the point with you.

I fully understand why you'd have A problem with it. But you're pretending you have only a statistical issue with it (I.e. you're being objective) and I'm basing mine on personal experience (I.e. I'm not objective). But your real issue is not statistical or evidence based. It's based on your personal.experince.tok. All I'm saying is don't pretend you have a problem with personal experience influencing opinion. You're no different.

Lets take your randomly plucked assertion of 50%, and imagine it's an assertion which places all women (sorry, 50% or more of them) as guilty of something universally agreed to be wrong or a 'bad thing'. Can you see why women would (understandably) be quite annoyed about their entire gender (sorry half) as guilty?

Yes I can understand why they'd be annoyed. But they shouldn't pretend their issue is some kind of statistical methodological issue.

As for you doubting my experience... you were literally castigating other posters for doing precisely the same thing ,when doubting the frequency of their experiences. Pretty much undermines any points you're making.

Maybe you do have great eyes.. but I'm not surprised they haven't been groped :rolleyes:

I don't doubt it. I contrasted it with my own. And I'd pay attention if a woman contrasted her experience with the metoo posters. But the most I've seen on this thread from women in terms of dissent is "Im a woman who hates metoo but yeah I get harassed all the time"

As males talking about male harassment I can of course contrast my experience with yours. Women can also.contrast their experiences as women experiencing male harassment. Males contrasting their experiences with wkmems is.dodgy though.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

I fully understand why you'd have A problem with it. But you're pretending you have only a statistical issue with it (I.e. you're being objective) and I'm basing mine on personal experience (I.e. I'm not objective). But your real issue is not statistical or evidence based. It's based on your personal.experince.tok. All I'm saying is don't pretend you have a problem with personal experience influencing opinion. You're no different.



Yes I can understand why they'd be annoyed. But they shouldn't pretend their issue is some kind of statistical methodological issue.



I don't doubt it. I contrasted it with my own. And I'd pay attention if a woman contrasted her experience with the metoo posters. But the most I've seen on this thread from women in terms of dissent is "Im a woman who hates metoo but yeah I get harassed all the time"

As males talking about male harassment I can of course contrast my experience with yours. Women can also.contrast their experiences as women experiencing male harassment. Males contrasting their experiences with wkmems is.dodgy though.

I don't mean this as harshly as it sounds, but please don't tell me what I do or do not have a problem with. I have specifically and repeatedly told you what I have a problem with. I have a problem with you blindly making up figures that don't seem credible and are completely informed by your personal experience. It's that simple really.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It has to be based on statistical evidence otherwise it's hearsay, and considered unreliable. We already know that women are harassed. That's been known for quite some time. Just as we know that women harass men, although it doesn't receive similar criticism. The belief that these statistics will not be collected comes down to the lack of official reports to support these claims of "widespread" harassment.

The low level harassment I'm talking about is unreportable though. I'm sure you keep.up.to.date with news and if you do.you must have seen stories of.women who were properly stalked and how hard it was to do anything. And you think the law can deal.with a guy who follows a woman down the street on one occasion? You will NEVER get official stats on that. It is 100% unrealistic to want that as a basis for discussion.

I get why first hand accounts can be felt to be unreliable.or.exaggerated. But there comes a point where the volume of them lends credence, pretty much certainty.

Easiest way to see that was with Harvey Weinstein. There comes a point where do.manynwomen accuse him with matching stories that only the most deluded woild think that any individual story is probabilistically a lie.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

I don't mean this as harshly as it sounds, but please don't tell me what I do or do not have a problem with. I have specifically and repeatedly told you what I have a problem with. I have a problem with you blindly making up figures that don't seem credible and are completely informed by your personal experience. It's that simple really.

Do you have any objective statistical issues with a poster saying that in their opinion a minority of.men have at least one incident of harassment?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

The low level harassment I'm talking about is unreportable though. I'm sure you keep.up.to.date with news and if you do.you must have seen stories of.women who were properly stalked and how hard it was to do anything. And you think the law can deal.with a guy who follows a woman down the street on one occasion? You will NEVER get official stats on that. It is 100% unrealistic to want that as a basis for discussion.

You have to start somewhere. Start with the reports which can be submitted first, and then, we can look to creating a system to deal with the other problems.

You've decided that because some issues can't be reported or enforced, then you must avoid pushing the remainder to be entered for official records, and as statistical evidence.

Sure, this thread talks about "low level harassment" but it also covers far more about more serious harassment that women have to experience. Stands to reason to focus on that first, deal with it, and move on to the remainder later.

I get why first hand accounts can be felt to be unreliable.or.exaggerated. But there comes a point where the volume of them lends credence, pretty much certainty.

Nope. It doesn't. Because they still have not been verified. Until those claims are verified as being true, you're not going to get that much support from most men. Why? because we've seen the claims by hardline feminists for decades, and they've often (not always) been proven to be baseless.

Easiest way to see that was with Harvey Weinstein. There comes a point where do.manynwomen accuse him with matching stories that only the most deluded woild think that any individual story is probabilistically a lie.

Apparently, quite a lot of people in that industry knew what he was doing... for decades.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Do you have any objective statistical issues with a poster saying that in their opinion a minority of.men have at least one incident of harassment?

I think he's pointing out that you don't come across as expressing your singular opinion... instead, you're stating as facts that the rest of us just have to accept as true. You're right because, well, it's you.

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to start somewhere. Start with the reports which can be submitted first, and then, we can look to creating a system to deal with the other problems.

You've decided that because some issues can't be reported or enforced, then you must avoid pushing the remainder to be entered for official records, and as statistical evidence.

Sure, this thread talks about "low level harassment" but it also covers far more about more serious harassment that women have to experience. Stands to reason to focus on that first, deal with it, and move on to the remainder later.

Low level harassment leads to high level issues. We need to start at the bottom to change this. Women have to deal with stress from men (some men, apparently I have to make that clear every single time because gods forbid some bloke gets his feelings hurt) on an ongoing, daily, basis. Pretending it's not an issue because it's not physical assault is a shtty thing to do.

If you can instill in young men that disrespecting women is not acceptable you will likely see a drop in serious incidents when those men are of age.

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope. It doesn't. Because they still have not been verified. Until those claims are verified as being true, you're not going to get that much support from most men. Why? because we've seen the claims by hardline feminists for decades, and they've often (not always) been proven to be baseless.

So, do you see women as inherently liars?

So what do you want us to do? Do we go to the police constantly? There'd be queues out the door with women reporting men catcalling, men leering on the bus, men feeling their arses in shops, etc. Some women would be there a dozen times a day.

Not cleaning up dog sht is a crime. Do you report it every time you step in dog sht? Men catcalling in the street is the dogsht of our daily lives.

But you won't accept the fact that we're telling you about it now, thousands of us, because we don't have a police report to go along with our daily experiences.

We report stuff and we're hysterical and reporting trivial issues.
We don't report it and nothing will be done because there's no statistics about something that women are literally telling you happens all the time.
We try a middle ground on social media and we're jumping on bandwagons and making stuff up.

Outlaw Pete

kylith wrote: »

If you can instill in young men that disrespecting women is not acceptable you will likely see a drop in serious incidents when those men are of age.

Oh give me a break.

You think it's not instilled into boys to respect women and girls over men and boys?? Well, you think wrong. It's one of the first things we are told to do and it very much is drilled into us. Constantly in society we hear men being told 'Don't speak like that to a woman' have you ever heard the opposite? If a man is seen even arguing with a woman in public it will get stares and you can be damn sure if he even raised his voice then someone would intervene and ask the woman was she okay.

We live in a largely chivalrous still, despite feminists moans about it over the years. Males disrespecting women is very much scorned upon. How high exactly do you want your pedestal to be?

kylith

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Oh give me a fcuking break.

You think it's not instilled into boys to respect women and girls over men and boys?? Well, you think wrong. It's one of the first things we are told to do and it very much is drilled into us. Constantly in society we hear men being told 'Don't speak like that to a woman' have you ever heard the opposite? If a man is seen even arguing with a woman in public it will get stares and you can be damn sure if he even raised his voice then someone would intervene and ask the woman was she okay.

We live in a largely chivalrous still, despite feminists moans about it over the years. Males disrespecting women is very much scorned upon. How high exactly do you want your pedestal to be?

Well then where are this guys getting it? They're hardly picking the idea that it's ok to fondle or catcall women up off the ground, are they?

erica74

I am retreating from this thread because I am sick of reading a post by someone recounting an experience and being met with but... insert repeated excuse here. And I can guarantee I am not the only one who has done this. I can also guarantee there are plenty of posters who have chosen not to post in this thread because of the repeated but but but...

kylith

kylith wrote: »

Low level harassment leads to high level issues. We need to start at the bottom to change this.

LLMMLL already suggested/stated that it was near on impossible to follow up on the low level harassment... so It's completely illogical to start at the bottom with the areas that you believe can't be enforced.

- Register the extreme acts of harassment/abuse, form statistical proof, get the whole society behind it, and then Deal harshly with the extreme acts of harassment/abuse. Once that stain of behavior has been removed/severely limited, then turn to dealing with the lesser offenses.

Women have to deal with stress from men (some men, apparently I have to make that clear every single time because gods forbid some bloke gets his feelings hurt) on an ongoing, daily, basis. Pretending it's not an issue because it's not physical assault is a shtty thing to do.

I didn't pretend that it's not an issue. In fact, I have suggested a logical and reasonable step towards reducing this kind of behavior. start thinking of logical, reasonable steps to reduce this behavior without alienating either gender.

If you can instill in young men that disrespecting women is not acceptable you will likely see a drop in serious incidents when those men are of age.

We've already had that attitude for decades. Gentleman? Our mothers usually taught us not to play so rough near girls, to respect them, to consider ourselves as their protectors. Movies, literature, the media, have all reinforced this attitude that men were supposed to protect women. What happens when a ship sinks? Women and children first. There are loads upon loads of other examples of how society places the welfare of women ahead of men.

Then "women"/society told us that they didn't want our protection and that behaving like a gentleman was sexist.

And even back when we were encouraged to behave like fine young gentlemen, and protect women, there were still ignorant ****s who harassed or abused women. Relying on society or culture is no longer as effective. There's been too much movement towards idividualism, non-conformist attitudes, etc.

So, do you see women as inherently liars?

Huh? The way your mind works is... interesting. Let me put it this way. I've known many women to lie, and many women to tell the truth. Telling a lie, exaggerating, etc are not gender based.

So what do you want us to do? Do we go to the police constantly? There'd be queues out the door with women reporting men catcalling, men leering on the bus, men feeling their arses in shops, etc. Some women would be there a dozen times a day.

Maybe they would... if they were receiving harassment or abuse that is illegal.

And then we would be able to verify the claims, etc etc etc. Get's tiresome repeating the same thing.

Do you want change, or do you want to rant without any real change?

Not cleaning up dog sht is a crime. Do you report it every time you step in dog sht? Men catcalling in the street is the dogsht of our daily lives.

As for dog ****, the signs and enforced fines have worked wonders in my hometown. It does happen still, but very rarely.

But you won't accept the fact that we're telling you about it now, thousands of us, because we don't have a police report to go along with our daily experiences.

Yup. I won't accept the fact... Because "your" experiences have not been proven to be true, there is no frame of reference for time, location, or circumstances.

We report stuff and we're hysterical and reporting trivial issues.
We don't report it and nothing will be done because there's no statistics about something that women are literally telling you happens all the time.
We try a middle ground on social media and we're jumping on bandwagons and making stuff up.

You said all that... not me. I have from the beginning repeated the expectation that claims need to be verified before they can be considered.

Let me put it this way. Someone goes online and says she was raped by you. They tell everybody on the internet about how you stalked her, drugged hit her, abused her, and raped her. (You're innocent. You don't even know the girl). But for whatever reason, she has decided that you are a rapist. So she goes online ranting and raving about how you abused her, building up a following on twitter, and feminists online support her calling you a monster, and demanding that you be punished.

Under your logic, your innocence would be irrelevant, because we must believe that she was raped. Because she is female.

Wouldn't you prefer that she went to the police and that the matter be properly investigated? And you're proven innocent! Yay!. But your reputation is in ruins. Thousands of people online think you're still a rapist and the law was wrong. The girl gets a slap on the wrist for making a false claim and goes back to claiming that you abused her. She writes an ebook, and makes a fortune off your misery... and you'll live the rest of your life with the reputation that you might be a rapist.

This isn't about women as a gender lying. This isn't about men as a gender lying. This is about issues that ruin peoples lives. False claims do as much damage to innocents as the punishments meted out to the guilty. False Rape claims are a fact. They happen. Same with false claims for many other crimes.

All claims should be investigated and confirmed.

Zulu

kylith wrote: »

Well then where are this guys getting it? They're hardly picking the idea that it's ok to fondle or catcall women up off the ground, are they?

They are not getting it because they are men, they are getting it because they are dicks.

kylith wrote: »

If you can instill in young men that disrespecting women is not acceptable you will likely see a drop in serious incidents when those men are of age.

FFS what a crock of sh1t. If that were the case, surely then your ire is better directed at women - mothers & sisters, seeing as men have failed so fabulously to date.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

Well then where are this guys getting it? They're hardly picking the idea that it's ok to fondle or catcall women up off the ground, are they?

I'd be inclined to point some fingers towards the US Gangsta Hip-hop/rap scene which tends to encourage such treatment of women in their lyrics, and videos/movies.

Zulu

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd be inclined to point some fingers towards the US Gangsta Hip-hop/rap scene which tends to encourage such treatment of women in their lyrics, and videos/movies.

Carefull now! Lets keep this a gender thing, we wouldn't want to turn it into a race thing - racism is bad.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You have to start somewhere. Start with the reports which can be submitted first, and then, we can look to creating a system to deal with the other problems.

You've decided that because some issues can't be reported or enforced, then you must avoid pushing the remainder to be entered for official records, and as statistical evidence.

No I'm saying that the issues that can't be reported/enforced can't be reported/enforced. I'm not saying anything about things that can be reported such as rape or assault.

Sure, this thread talks about "low level harassment" but it also covers far more about more serious harassment that women have to experience. Stands to reason to focus on that first, deal with it, and move on to the remainder later.

That makes zero sense to me. Why not address both simultaneously?

Nope. It doesn't. Because they still have not been verified. Until those claims are verified as being true, you're not going to get that much support from most men. Why? because we've seen the claims by hardline feminists for decades, and they've often (not always) been proven to be baseless.



Apparently, quite a lot of people in that industry knew what he was doing... for decades.

Do.you believe the vast majority of the Weinstein accusations? Because there's no proof for the vast majority of them. If you do believe them can you say why?