erica74 wrote: » professore wrote: » Wow .... Lots of balanced and reasonable comments the last few pages. Would be interested to know how common catcalling and the like is in Ireland ... A lot has been said about parts of the Bay Area Because all of the comments so far recounting experiences in Ireland aren't enough? We're on page 62. Just by the way, I'm in Ireland and in my experience it is very common. Why do the goalposts keep changing? Or should I say, why do you keep changing the goalposts?
professore wrote: » Wow .... Lots of balanced and reasonable comments the last few pages. Would be interested to know how common catcalling and the like is in Ireland ... A lot has been said about parts of the Bay Area
RabbleRouser2k wrote: » Lewinsky made a lot of money out of the Clinton scandal. As well as turning it into business ventures,
erica74 wrote: » Just by the way, I'm in Ireland and in my experience it is very common.
LLMMLL wrote: » I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true.
LLMMLL wrote: » I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true. Sure theres not too many men hassling women during the daytime but add a bit of alcohol and it rockets. A friend of mine was at a festival with a very attractive female friend and she had to ask him to act as a human shield against all the guys pressing up against her. And this was not a crowded dancefloor unavoidable shes-being-paranoid situation. He said it was like the walking dead with a bunch of guys basically mobbing her, staring, trying to.press up against her. One guy wasn't out and out groping her but tried to.keep body contact the whole time such as keeping his finger on her elbow. No matter where she moved he tried to have some physical contact at all times.
givyjoe wrote: » At a festival where presumably, thousands of other men were present, NOT assaulting women?
LLMMLL wrote: » The excuses are already pouring in. This was a dancefloor in a small tent. Probably 100 people. And about ten guys suddenly crowded her like she had some weird gravitational pull. My friend who is stridently anti-feminist and hates band wagon jumping with a passion said he wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't seen it.
givyjoe wrote: » Sorry, what excuse did I make? And to be clear I am not defending anyone who do such a thing, it's clearly wrong. You stated that you doubt it's a tiny minority of men.. yet you referenced a festival where there were likely thousands, if not tens of thousands of men NOT assaulting women.
LLMMLL wrote: » I think the idea that it's a tiny minority of men who act in a harrassy way to women isn't true. Sure theres not too many men hassling women during the daytime but add a bit of alcohol and it rockets. A friend of mine was at a festival with a very attractive female friend and she had to ask him to act as a human shield against all the guys pressing up against her. And this was not a crowded dancefloor unavoidable shes-being-paranoid situation. He said it was like the walking dead with a bunch of guys basically mobbing her, staring, trying to.press up against her. One guy wasn't out and out groping her but tried to.keep body contact the whole time such as keeping his finger on her elbow. No matter where she moved he tried to have some physical contact at all times. And I'm sure a lot of these guys weren't aware that 10 other guys were acting the same way turning it into a really awful situation for her. They probably think their own behaviour was absolutely fine. They fancied her, tried to get closer, tried to get her attention. Tried to get a bit of a grind on the dancefloor ah sire who hasn't done that etc. But would never behave badly towards a women oh no #notallmen. The main message I'd like men to take away from #metoonisnthe sheer volume of harassment women face. That when you make your approach in daytime, or dance near a woman at nighttime that there are probably multiple other guys doing the same thing leading to very dodgy situations. I think many guys use the excuse that because their behaviour is not that harrassy at the individual level and because they are not responsible for other people's behaviour that everything is fine. Like a tourist who takes a small piece of an ancient ruin as a memento. One tourist taking a piece of the Acropolis woulsnt have any effect. But every tourist decodes they want a piece of it then you have a problem.
One eyed Jack wrote: » I didn't handwave it away first of all, and second of all because women aren't generally raised in isolated bubbles by themselves away from all men, I'm certainly not speaking from a position of ignorance. I'm quite aware of what women learn too from their parents, their peers, their friends, their co-workers and so on. Are you seriously suggesting that your mother learned this from her mother -Every man on a quiet street is a potential threat Every man walking behind us could be a rapist Men we don't know are threats Men we do know are even bigger threats The single biggest threat to women is men I know that only a vanishingly small minority of women have ever thought that of men, and thought it long before your grandmothers time too.
LLMMLL wrote: » ...majority of men have at least one or two incidents of low level harassment if they were actually honest with themselves.
Christy42 wrote: » I think tiny should be defined. There are certainly enough to make it an issue for a large proportion of women. However I have seen little evidence it is a majority of men doing it. So it depends what you mean by tiny. Whatever the number I feel like the number of victims alone are enough to justify this campaign and hopefully further actions which are needed. Sorry but the phrasing rockets seems to indicate a large proportion of men are responsible which won't help matters. Certainly the tourist analogy where you talk about every tourist is suggestive of this.
Zulu wrote: » So the majority then. :rolleyes: And this extends across the globe obviously - so you're referencing 50% of the population, right?
LLMMLL wrote: » I'm not saying 100%. But I think there's a significant minority of men who harrassy semi regularly and I think the majority of men have at least one or two incidents of low level harassment if they were actually honest with themselves.
LLMMLL wrote: » Yeah I think over 50% of men have at least one incident of harassment in their lives. Probably while drunk and probably something they don't acknowledge to themselves and never will.
One eyed Jack wrote: » That wasn't the comparison. The comparison was you suggesting I would always be arguing from a position of ignorance, while you assumed to be able to speak for the experiences of as you put it - "the vast majority of women". You simply cannot speak for anyone else's experiences but your own. Just because of your shared anatomy doesn't give you any more insight into the life of another woman outside of yourself. You really can't speak as to the experiences of the vast majority of women, and of course when you put that out there, people are entitled to question it rather than just listen and believe, particularly when your experience as a woman is in no way representative at all of the women in their lives. Just to give you one example - what you say you learned growing up and what you learned from your grandmother is nothing like what my sister learned growing up. It's nothing like what the vast majority of my friends learned growing up. Yours is without a doubt a completely different life to theirs, and I'm not just saying that to be argumentative or to make a point for the sake of making a point. I'm saying it because as much as you like to think that by virtue of the fact that you are a woman, does not mean that the vast majority of women have experienced anything or even close to anything like your experiences. They have their own minds and their own experiences, and this used to be acknowledged when women reminded men that they are not of a hive mind, and yet, well, here we are. We're now expected to listen and believe when we're told that women are a hive mind after all, and coincidentally enough, most of them just happen to think the same way you do. I've known enough women well enough throughout my life to know that simply isn't true. It's an idea that completely ignores the reality that people are actually individuals, not clones of each other based upon their sex. And I never claimed I knew what it was like to live as a woman, I simply pointed out that the idea that you can claim your experiences are representative of the majority of women, while it may well be subjectively true as far as you're concerned, it's certainly nowhere near objectively true as far as reality is concerned. Whether you'd try and explain men's experiences to them was really neither here nor there, as I wasn't trying to explain your experiences to you, I was attempting to explain to you that your experiences aren't nearly as universal as you want to believe they are. You can continue to believe it of course and more power to you if that's what gets you through the day. I don't have to believe it though - goes back to the whole reason why I disagreed with you earlier when you said that nobody is entitled to be listened to, but you had exceptions. I don't. I never told you any such thing. In fact I've always advocated quite the opposite - From here: http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057710031/37/#post102767140 As for why I think I have any insight at all, well I don't owe you an explanation. Pissing contests really aren't my thing. I can object to your claim by showing where it's fallacious without needing to go into laying out my own personal experiences, by simply demonstrating using the experiences of other women that your experiences as a woman are nowhere near as universal as you assume your experiences to be. I didn't say you personally had an extremist ideology, I was referring to the idea of extremist ideologies in general. That you agree with kylith was really neither here nor there because what I was commenting on was the extremity of the ideology itself, the idea that men are the scourge of woman, that they are the greatest threat to women. I really don't have any interest in making it personally about either yourself or kylith, and I'm not taking what kylith said personally. I'm not taking it personally for the simple reason that it's crap. I'm not contradicting kylith's experiences that she made in her post, I'm not contradicting your experiences, I'm not explaining any woman's experiences to them. I absolutely believe your experiences, but what I don't have to believe, are your opinions, particularly when your opinions consist of a belief that is simply objectively untrue and without foundation or any credible evidence of any sort.
givyjoe wrote: » There we have it.. you think based on zero statistical data and completely on personal experience. I don't think it is anything other than a tiny minority, but I also believe that the number of reported and (estimated number of unreported cases) of sex crimes against women by men.. (In Ireland) still make the proportion of men committing these crimes to be what would be considered a statistically a tiny minority. Again, just to be clear. It's wrong, it shouldn't happen and there no excuses for it.
Zulu wrote: » And what numbers would you care to pull out of your arse for the other 50% of the population (women)?
kylith wrote: » And if you think that's crap then you have no fcking idea what you're talking about.
LLMMLL wrote: » Can't wait to hear the excuses: ah sure taxi drivers aren't normal guys. They're all crazy. Your have to expect this stuff off them. Why hasn't she reported it to the taxi regulator etc. Etc.
lazybones32 wrote: » This is the point of the opposition to #metoo: if a taxi driver made those comments, would the correct course of action be a) inform the Gardai, b) inform the Gardai and then complain to the taxi regulator or c) go on twitter to share your vague experience so more men will start to change society and human nature on your behalf? I'd really like your answer on that please.
LLMMLL wrote: » ...(usually from men on these threads trying to prove that men have it just as bad as women which is laughable)
LLMMLL wrote: » ... reporting to the regulator would maybe result in a fine which may be publicised in the regulator's report a year later with most men dismissing it as an isolated incident. Metoo shows the volume of these incidents. They are not isolated. So it has a vital role.
Zulu wrote: » The fact you needed to shoehorn that into your response is very telling; your intolerance is telling.
Zulu wrote: » So imposing an actual financial penalty on the guilty party, and publicly naming and shaming that guilty person, is less favourable to a twitter campaign aimed an noone in particular? Ok.
lazybones32 wrote: » @LLMMLL What a load of crap...are you involved in politics in some shape or form? You have an ability to address an issue with waffle while avoiding the Q.
