Ibrahim Halawa acquited(mod warning in op-Heed it)

dreamliner

Silas Most Keypunch wrote: »

Dreamliner. Your posts are a bit confusing. In one you say that you've had no communication with Ibrahim since his arrest. In another you say that he told you his cause was democracy. Was this before he headed to Egypt?

Yes. Before heading there our conversations were about the leaving cert and sharing past papers, he sat his LC that June like myself too ... more the reason I don't believe he went with any ill intentions. He planned to be back for his results too, not something many would want to miss.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

dreamliner wrote: »

Yes. Before heading there our conversations were about the leaving cert and sharing past papers, he sat his LC that June like myself too ... more the reason I don't believe he went with any ill intentions. He planned to be back for his results too, not something many would want to miss.

But when did he discuss the political situation in Egypt with you?

First Up

Silas Most Keypunch wrote:

No I'm not. That's why I asked.

I assme you know Liberal.ie does not enjoy a good reputation as media outlet. Its readership would not be representative of the country as a whole so any "poll" it conducts would be heavily skewed.

dreamliner

Silas Most Keypunch wrote: »

But when did he discuss the political situation in Egypt with you?

Not until it all kicked off sometime that august and his safety was under threat did we chat about it ... he never struck me as a political type here in Ireland, I'm not too arsed about it either... was never discussed really up until that point he was in danger and i was curious as to what on earth was going on

SnakePlissken

dreamliner wrote: »

Silas Most Keypunch wrote: »

Dreamliner. Your posts are a bit confusing. In one you say that you've had no communication with Ibrahim since his arrest. In another you say that he told you his cause was democracy. Was this before he headed to Egypt?

Yes. Before heading there our conversations were about the leaving cert and sharing past papers, he sat his LC that June like myself too ... more the reason I don't believe he went with any ill intentions. He planned to be back for his results too, not something many would want to miss.

Confirmation that he was lying on the Late Late Show when he claimed he went to Egypt purely on holiday with no political intentions.

Thank you for clearing that up.

dreamliner

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Confirmation that he was lying on the Late Late Show when he claimed he went to Egypt purely on holiday with no political intentions.

Thank you for clearing that up.

You twisted that more than Bill O'Reilly could ever dream of being able to do.

Everything up to June -> Leaving Cert and general Irish teenage chit chat.

It was quiet then up until August with the holidays, he told me a while before he was going to egypt and was looking forward to it because I think he hadn't been for a while.

In August it was all kicking off and that's when I asked him what was going on, knowing he was there. At this point then I began to understand the situation and there were issues and he was upset about democracy not being respected in the country. That is it, haven't spoken to him since.

There is no reason to believe he went with any other intentions other than a holiday. Whilst he was there all the mess with Morsi being kicked out etc happened and he felt a sense of wanting to stand for what he felt was right - democracy.


Just to go back to what someone said a few pages back that the egyptians didn't prosecute him not because there was no evidence but that it was because the Irish saved him. Whilst there is no doubt that the Irish gov played a vital role in his acquittal (and the family are very grateful from what I've heard them say), I don't think that somehow means there was evidence. If there was, then Irish intervention or not, he would have been sentenced. If the Irish government were that instrumental it wouldn't have taken 4 years. They played a big role in getting him out but the Egyptians would have taken him to the cleaners if there was evidence. Again, speaking at a protest is not a crime.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

First Up wrote: »

I assme you know Liberal.ie does not enjoy a good reputation as media outlet. Its readership would not be representative of the country as a whole so any "poll" it conducts would be heavily skewed.

But this was about people who had changed their minds after watching the programme, so who presumably believed the official Halawa version before hand and now no longer do. So no bias or prejudice evident really. Anyhow it was just a poll on line that anyone could take part in. Maybe there are others as well.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Confirmation that he was lying on the Late Late Show when he claimed he went to Egypt purely on holiday with no political intentions.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Yes it seems obvious from dreamliner's posts that the Halawas are not being totally upfront about their reason for travelling to Israel.

dreamliner

dreamliner wrote: »

Yes. Before heading there our conversations were about the leaving cert and sharing past papers, he sat his LC that June like myself too ... more the reason I don't believe he went with any ill intentions. He planned to be back for his results too, not something many would want to miss.

dreamliner wrote: »

Not until it all kicked off sometime that august and his safety was under threat did we chat about it ... he never struck me as a political type here in Ireland, I'm not too arsed about it either... was never discussed really up until that point he was in danger and i was curious as to what on earth was going on

Silas Most Keypunch wrote: »

Yes it seems obvious from dreamliner's posts that the Halawas are not being totally upfront about their reason for travelling to Israel.

It's not obvious to me!

EIREDriver

dreamliner wrote: »

It was quiet then up until August with the holidays, he told me a while before he was going to egypt and was looking forward to it because I think he hadn't been for a while.

Did he not say on the LLS that he hadn't been to Egypt before?

First Up

Silas Most Keypunch wrote:

Yes it seems obvious from dreamliner's posts that the Halawas are not being totally upfront about their reason for travelling to Israel.

Freudian slip there.

First Up

EIREDriver wrote:

Did he not say on the LLS that he hadn't been to Egypt before?

No he didn't.

gozunda

I believe you may be referring my post a while back

dreamliner wrote: »

...
Just to go back to what someone said a few pages back that the egyptians didn't prosecute him not because there was no evidence but that it was because the Irish saved him. Whilst there is no doubt that the Irish gov played a vital role in his acquittal (and the family are very grateful from what I've heard them say), I don't think that somehow means there was evidence. If there was, then Irish intervention or not, he would have been sentenced. If the Irish government were that instrumental it wouldn't have taken 4 years. They played a big role in getting him out but the Egyptians would have taken him to the cleaners if there was evidence. Again, speaking at a protest is not a crime.

What I said was ...

gozunda wrote:

Tbh all we know is that he was acquited. That is all - nothing more. VIdeo and other evidence exists showing that his presence at the MB led protests and his addressing the crowd on stage etc. The Halawas addressed the MB organised protest in the video under the banner of "Egyptians Abroad For Democracy" (EAD) - a pro-Muslim Brotherhood group

I'm not sure the Egyptian Government were that enthused to make "an example of him" tbh. I also believe the Irish goverment were strongly instrumental in ensuring his aquital and release.

dreamliner wrote:

Whilst silly to do so in a place like Egypt, speaking at a protest is not a crime.

gozuna wrote:

No not at that point in time. But for a foreign national who had ignored a DFA travel advisory it was a very very stupid thing to do. For an Egyptian national living in Egypt to do so might be understandable - for a young guy from Dublin who later claims no interest in Politics it's quite incredible imo.

Please note I never mentioned anything about "evidence" in the trial against him or otherwise. To counter your point about the Egyptian Government - If the Egyptian Government were as bad as painted by some of the pro Halawa brigade then surely he would have been fitted up on some trumped up charge and convicted. The facts do not stand up to that outcome with his aquital and release.

As to the points you made about IH supporting "democracy" it is necessary to add his support of Morsi and his MB party evidenced during IHs address from the stage during a protest.

Morsi was elected to the position of president by means democratic election but there is little if any evidence that the MB or Morsi support the rule of democracy.

The following was issued by a pro Morsi cleric (and Morsi's spuritual advisor) prior to his election

The United States of the Arabs will be restored on the hands of that man [Mursi] and his supporters. The capital of the [Muslim] Caliphate will be Jerusalem with God’s will,” "we will not accept any alternative to Shariah. The Qur'an is our institution and will always be so"

Source: [url] https://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/07/219272.html[/url]

I can understand to a certain degree loyalty for the sake of friendship but I would suggest that it necessary look further than that which is given without qualification

Seems to me like both sides of this debate get what they want by never thinking or talking about this lad ever again, now that he's home and the time and money and nd attention has been spent and isn't coming back.

Omackeral

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I already proved that he is not a legitimate account earlier in the thread, I'm baffled at how he still manages to get a rise out of people when his posts are so blatant.

All he ever does is try to derail threads by posting some banal statement followed by one of the following suffixes;

End of story.
Fact.
Nope, your (sic) wrong.

This in turn instigates page after page of posters discrediting his claims which he will predictably ignore, only to appear a number of days later with a different, if not dissimilar statement only to start the whole cycle again.

He's as predictable as the day follows night.

I have my opinions, and I'm more than happy to debate with those who do not share my views, but I see no point conversing with a poster who lies so shamelessly.

I have been called a racist, a biget (sic), and a troll by this poster with no repercussion by the moderators, what I've posted above is no way a personal attack, it's a statement of my belief that said poster wishes only to shut down free speech on this forum by provoking reactions that get posters infracted.

Nope your wrong

deco nate

EIREDriver wrote: »

Did he not say on the LLS that he hadn't been to Egypt before?

Yes he did

_Kaiser_

When you watch the interview, it's clear that something isn't right. He's nervous, he's overcompensating with humor and deflecting with side stories, he's nodding and moving around in the chair constantly. Now maybe that's being on TV, but then you see the other videos of him addressing rallies and making statements to other TV. He doesn't seem the type to be intimidated by Tubridy! He's also in great physical shape and spirits for someone who spent 4 years in a harsh prison, being beaten and tortured, and on hunger strikes. It just doesn't add up.

If I had to describe it, it all seems "forced" and scripted for maximum sympathy, and entirely dismissive of any negative comments or opinions - "haters", "racist people will be racist" etc..
All of this, and the unclear, confused timeline of events he outlines serves to further muddy what actually happened. The family in the front row don't look too happy about the questions either a lot of the time. The sister comes across as very adversarial too.

Tubridy does a surprisingly decent job given the format to be fair, and tries to dig as far as he can into it. One of his better interviews for sure.

dreamliner

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

When you watch the interview, it's clear that something isn't right. He's nervous, he's overcompensating with humor and deflecting with side stories, he's nodding and moving around in the chair constantly. Now maybe that's being on TV, but then you see the other videos of him addressing rallies and making statements to other TV. He doesn't seem the type to be intimidated by Tubridy! He's also in great physical shape and spirits for someone who spent 4 years in a harsh prison, being beaten and tortured, and on hunger strikes. It just doesn't add up.

I can see what you're saying, but in those interviews from a few years ago he was very naive, he had a false sense of confidence no doubt, he was confident those watching were all behind him.

On Friday night, it has to be said that the vast majority of viewers had a great deal of suspicion about him, he is fully aware that people do not like him, he no doubt tried to change that and get the truth out and it likely made him extra nervous. It was a lot more of a personal setting and focus on him rather than talking about a situation concerning all.

Personally to sit in front of the nation and have to defend you, your character and many other things in front of viewers who you know will try to pick at every tiny thing you say looking for blood ... that isn't easy. I for one would be a horror show in such a situation and I think many other young people would.

_Kaiser_

dreamliner wrote: »

I can see what you're saying, but in those interviews from a few years ago he was very naive, he had a false sense of confidence no doubt, he was confident those watching were all behind him.

On Friday night, it has to be said that the vast majority of viewers had a great deal of suspicion about him, he is fully aware that people do not like him, he no doubt tried to change that and get the truth out and it likely made him extra nervous. It was a lot more of a personal setting and focus on him rather than talking about a situation concerning all.

Personally to sit in front of the nation and have to defend you, your character and many other things in front of viewers who you know will try to pick at every tiny thing you say looking for blood ... that isn't easy. I for one would be a horror show in such a situation and I think many other young people would.

Equally I see your point, but he just doesn't come across as genuine.

If he was attempting to get the truth out as you say, I think he completely failed on that front, and in fact added fuel to the fire of the "haters" and "racists" he called out on national TV - can't really complain about them analysing your story when you do that.

All in all, I think he would have been better off leaving any comment to his upcoming book as I think he did his credibility more harm than good with that interview.

First Up

deco nate wrote:

Yes he did

That would be a strange thing for someone who went to Egypt regularly to say so maybe you could produce the clip of him saying it?

AlekSmart

dreamliner wrote: »

I'm not willing to turn this into a "he/she said" thing, but while he was in egypt in august 2013 this was all over sky news at the time. There was one instance where he was in a mosque and the army/police were attacking from the outside. On Sky I particularly remember them saying the Egyptian government had said they were trying to get the people out the mosque and secure the area, the reality was that any time any of them tried to head for the exits they were met with numerous rounds of gunfire.

See how it's not as simple as people want to make out? "He was there protesting with the MB he's a terrorist lock him up blah blah". Not quite the case.

The next I heard was that he'd been arrested and he was offline. Haven't had any communication with him since, there were letters being sent back and forth with some of his friends and family as he mentioned on the LLS but I wasn't willing to go through that and the potential risks involved all for the sake of a 'hello'.

My own opinion is that he was stupid to do what he did and get engaged at all in the situation whilst there. It was not a wise decision. He was extremely naive to think a 17 yr old from a foreign land (you may see him as Egyptian but to the egyptians he is a foreigner) can change anything, especially in a country like that. But as I read elsewhere, young guys can and do get sucked into fighting for something they may feel strongly about. For him it was the illegal ousting of a democratically elected leader. Not a wise decision at all and no one knows that more than him I can assure you.

What people need to realise is that if anyone on the planet had a cause, or the strongest of desires to keep that lad in prison and find him guilty of anything - it would have been the Egyptian state prosecutors. They have a lot more hatred for the lad than every single person on here combined together. Were they able to prosecute him or find any evidence? No. Why? Because there was none. The fact they could not find anything, with 4 yrs on their hands to do so and a burning desire to want to make a major example of him, yet they still weren't able to should say it all.

Whilst silly to do so in a place like Egypt, speaking at a protest is not a crime.

Some very good points here,Dreamliner.

You are one of the few to recognize the very obvious reality that Egypt is "different",in so many ways from our own society.

As you say,"In a country like that",a description which encompasses pretty much the entire Middle Eastern/Sub Saharan African region,Life is lived to a different drumbeat,one which may appear harsh,oppressive and intolerant to us,but which is viewed as the only way to live under the belief structure adopted by the majority of it's inhabitants.

I am however reluctant to accept your contention that Ibrahim Halawa would be viewed as a "Foreigner",particularly with the strong embedded family ties which sees his Mother and at least one sister living there "in the family home" at the time of the upheaval.

I have never viewed Ibrahim's nationality as being of any particular relevance to the broader issue here,and I still don't.

What remains of relevance,is whether Ibrahims presence in Cairo,was at the insistence of his Father,Imam Halawa and whether this was something Ibrahim himself,was entirely committed to,or comfortable with.

Ibrahim mentions,in passing,how his goal was to head for Ibiza and party with his school-pals,but how he was instead persuaded to first head for Cairo,during a period of extreme tension.

My own sense here,is that Ibrahim Halawa is far from being a "chip off the old block" in relation to his father OR his sisters,and that he is far more aligned with the youthful Irish,Western Male society that he is now an integral part of.

The question now arises as to whether Ibrahim will be allowed to simply reengage with his Irishness,or whether there is now a different road he must travel along ?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

First Up wrote: »

Freudian slip there.

Yep. Apologies for that.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

dreamliner wrote: »

I can see what you're saying, but in those interviews from a few years ago he was very naive, he had a false sense of confidence no doubt, he was confident those watching were all behind him.

On Friday night, it has to be said that the vast majority of viewers had a great deal of suspicion about him, he is fully aware that people do not like him, he no doubt tried to change that and get the truth out and it likely made him extra nervous. It was a lot more of a personal setting and focus on him rather than talking about a situation concerning all.

Personally to sit in front of the nation and have to defend you, your character and many other things in front of viewers who you know will try to pick at every tiny thing you say looking for blood ... that isn't easy. I for one would be a horror show in such a situation and I think many other young people would.

Then why appear on the show at all? As I've said before he would be far better off just getting quietly on with his life and trying to put this experience behind him. His family should be looking after him not trotting him around the place like a prize pony.

The_Kew_Tour

I actuallh felt sorry for people who believed him after that interview.

Comedy Gold

deco nate

First Up wrote: »

That would be a strange thing for someone who went to Egypt regularly to say so maybe you could produce the clip of him saying it?

Rte player, 2:58 seconds into it

dreamliner

deco nate wrote: »

Rte player, 2:58 seconds into it

It's not 2:58 on the player, anyway I think I found what you're referring to. Is it where he says his dad said to him "you haven't been to Egypt you need to go"?

That just struck me as his dad saying he hadn't been as in that year or anytime recently ... could be wrong. I don't know his entire history but that was just how it came across to me.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Tubridy does a surprisingly decent job given the format to be fair, and tries to dig as far as he can into it. One of his better interviews for sure.

I thought he was a bit "faux" challenging. He went all guns blazing at one point and then just backed off- something like "I'll do my Paxman impression now, and get all angry- that'll scare 'em".

A good interviewer would have a more even-keel approach, drawing out the interviewee, and probe deeper where necessary, letting them make their own mistakes- Ryan doesn't like those type of interviews, and that's why he just isn't suited to what TLLS should be doing.

Ray Darcy on Saturday Nights for "fluff"- hopefully Brendan O' Connor for TLLS for some traditional good old-fashioned National Debate- some day!

deco nate

dreamliner wrote: »

It's not 2:58 on the player, anyway I think I found what you're referring to. Is it where he says his dad said to him "you haven't been to Egypt you need to go"?

That just struck me as his dad saying he hadn't been as in that year or anytime recently ... could be wrong. I don't know his entire history but that was just how it came across to me.

Yea, that's it.

First Up

deco nate wrote:

Rte player, 2:58 seconds into it

Where he said his father said "you haven't been to Egypt"?

I can see how you are interpreting that as meaning "you have never been to Egypt" but I think he meant you haven't been for a while. (He also talked about meeting up with Egyptian friends who were subsequently killed.)

It has been widely reported (and not challenged) that the children visited their Egyptian cousins on a regular basis - almost every year.

I'm sure it can be clarified.

ToddyDoody

Surely he'll write a book.