Pro14 2017-18 season thread

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

I really hate these formats.

Isn't this nonsense one of the biggest complains with Super Rugby?

No

Tigerandahalf

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It would be massively hypocritical to put the Irish teams together in order to maintain derbies while simultaneously separating the Scottish and Italian teams, when all you have to do is not split them.

If they get a big wad of cash they'll agree to anything. Not like their derbies are big draws.

irishbucsfan

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

If they get a big wad of cash they'll agree to anything. Not like their derbies are big draws.

Or you could just let them keep their derbies, because it's better for everyone in the long term.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No

A quick google suggests you're wrong.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

A quick google suggests you're wrong.

This conversation has already been had, and this has already been explained earlier this week. Pretty sure it was this thread

pickarooney

awec wrote: »

I really hate these formats.

Isn't this nonsense one of the biggest complains with Super Rugby?

This, ****ty attendances, too much travelling, time zone issues, non competitive teams... basically every single likely outcome of adding US teams.

Tigerandahalf

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Or you could just let them keep their derbies, because it's better for everyone in the long term.

Be difficult to manage. The revenue isn't there for double derbies for the Scots/Italians.
It is for the Irish/Welsh and the S Africans would definitely want it. It would make sense for them to play those games down there.

Very exciting development.
It will mean big money for the Champions Cup too and the French teams might need to take it seriously.

irishbucsfan

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Be difficult to manage. The revenue isn't there for double derbies for the Scots/Italians.
It is for the Irish/Welsh and the S Africans would definitely want it. It would make sense for them to play those games down there.

Very exciting development.
It will mean big money for the Champions Cup too and the French teams might need to take it seriously.

It wouldn't be difficult to manage at all. You've split them up when you could just keep them together. Make it 4 Irish/Welsh + 2 Scottish/Italian and everyone gets their derbies.

The one certainty is that derbies will be maintained.

Rigor Mortis

I'm ok with letting go of the second non conference Irish derbies. They have been hugely devalued in recent years.
I'd be happier with a more competitive competititon.

Tigerandahalf

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It wouldn't be difficult to manage at all. You've split them up when you could just keep them together. Make it 4 Irish/Welsh + 2 Scottish/Italian and everyone gets their derbies.

The one certainty is that derbies will be maintained.

You mean
Irish 1
Welsh 1
Irish 4
Welsh 4
Italian 1
Scot 2

And then same format for 2nd conference for others.

It would mean some teams in their own conference could only be played once - if they were to play the other Irish teams twice from the 2nd conference?

Tigerandahalf

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I'm ok with letting go of the second non conference Irish derbies. They have been hugely devalued in recent years.
I'd be happier with a more competitive competititon.

Ya likely scenario.
It would also mean Scots and Italians play only 1 derby.

Dubinusa

I'd say that the Saffer teams are sick and tired of the losing. They are not good enough and the kiwi sides (blues excepted) are far better.
The different time zones may be a factor, but it's got to be worse for the jaguares.
If the pro 14 adds a team from the States, doesn't the time zone issue reappear again?
The pro 14 would be better served by having 23 teams, everyone plays each other once. Top 4 in a semi finals. I'd add a German or Georgian side too.

Burkie1203

Dubinusa wrote: »

I'd say that the Saffer teams are sick and tired of the losing. They are not good enough and the kiwi sides (blues excepted) are far better.
The different time zones may be a factor, but it's got to be worse for the jaguares.
If the pro 14 adds a team from the States, doesn't the time zone issue reappear again?
The pro 14 would be better served by having 23 teams, everyone plays each other once. Top 4 in a semi finals. I'd add a German or Georgian side too.

Sorry but adding teams everywhere would be a disaster. The S.A. sides in the same time zone works. Adding sides with an 8 or 10 hour time zone gap just makes it a mess

Tigerandahalf

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Sorry but adding teams everywhere would be a disaster. The S.A. sides in the same time zone works. Adding sides with an 8 or 10 hour time zone gap just makes it a mess

The Yanks probably won't happen now.
From Wales Online -
....
It is understood two more South African sides will enter the PRO14 for the 2019-20 season with another jumping on board for the campaign after.

Natal Sharks are understood to be the first team likely to commit to joining the Cheetahs and Kings in taking on sides from Wales, Ireland and Scotland on a regular basis in domestic competition.
The Lions and Stormers are the most likely to follow suit, though which of those two would join first is unclear.
.....

Maybe this is why the tv rights have more than doubled. Plans are already afoot.

Dubinusa

So it would be the pro 17. Still think they should expand to Germany. Maybe the Border Reivers will make a comeback. Good for the league, making it a better competition

Tigerandahalf

I am not sure if Wales Online have their facts rights.

As far as I know SA has commitments to Super Rugby until 2020. That would mean they would still need to supply 4 teams to Super Rugby until then.

Perhaps the other teams in SA - the Griquas and the Pumas - could be a possibilty.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/rugby/2017-12-08-pumas-and-griquas-given-franchise-status-look-north/

baas baa

I wonder if this is all kite flying by the SA sides to improve their bargaining position with Super rugby.

Burkie1203

baas baa wrote: »

I wonder if this is all kite flying by the SA sides to improve their bargaining position with Super rugby.

I dont think so. Games are on at far more favourable time which is better for sponsors and tv companies

ScrubsfanChris

Very bad move if true imo.
How are the Irish/Welsh/Scottish teams supposed to compete in both Europe and league consistently while teams like the Lions and Bulls get weeks off. Meanwhile weaker teams will be sent South especially if it's close to Champions Cup weekends.
Would mush rather be adding other European teams than South African ones.

snotboogie

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Very bad move if true imo.
How are the Irish/Welsh/Scottish teams supposed to compete in both Europe and league consistently while teams like the Lions and Bulls get weeks off. Meanwhile weaker teams will be sent South especially if it's close to Champions Cup weekends.
Would mush rather be adding other European teams than South African ones.

Isn't the plan to include the South Africans in the champions cup eventually? The only European teams that would be competitive are in Georgia and Romania, both non entity TV markets so Pro 14 have no interest. A German team would either be a team of foreigners or the biggest whipping boys in the history of pro rugby.

ScrubsfanChris

snotboogie wrote: »

Isn't the plan to include the South Africans in the champions cup eventually?

Is there proof of this?
All I've ever seen is "South African teams ineligible for European qualification" Never seen a timeline or someone saying "eventually"
Either way I assume the English and French teams would have to agree to this, not very likely with the travel involved.

Bazzo

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Is there proof of this?
All I've ever seen is "South African teams ineligible for European qualification" Never seen a timeline or someone saying "eventually"
Either way I assume the English and French teams would have to agree to this, not very likely with the travel involved.

Anayi hopes to convince stakeholders across the EPCR to welcome another player into Champions and Challenge Cup tournaments in the coming years, but the 2019/20 season is already too soon.

“You’ve got to look slightly further ahead than that. We’ve got people to convince. We’re not the only people who play in that competition, there are lots of different stakeholders. But if we can convince them that it’s good for them, not just for our league, then we’ve a pretty good shot of it happening in the not too distant future.”

CEO of the pro14 said this two days ago...

snotboogie

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Is there proof of this?
All I've ever seen is "South African teams ineligible for European qualification" Never seen a timeline or someone saying "eventually"
Either way I assume the English and French teams would have to agree to this, not very likely with the travel involved.

It was widely reported when they joined the Pro 14 that the long term plan would see them join the champions cup. The South African Rugby Union and Pro Rugby were very upfront with this;

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/23/sa-rugby-european-champions-cup-cheetahs-southern-kings

ScrubsfanChris

snotboogie wrote: »

It was widely reported when they joined the Pro 14 that the long term plan would see them join the champions cup. The South African Rugby Union and Pro Rugby were very upfront with this;

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/23/sa-rugby-european-champions-cup-cheetahs-southern-kings

Stand corrected

Still don't see it happening anytime soon though, imagine France and England would get one less team each in the champions cup if we had 6(?) South african teams in the Pro(insert number here) it's already hard enough for the English to get to the quater finals :pac:

Tigerandahalf

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Stand corrected

Still don't see it happening anytime soon though, imagine France and England would get one less team each in the champions cup if we had 6(?) South african teams in the Pro(insert number here) it's already hard enough for the English to get to the quater finals :pac:

A lot of the English clubs are broke. They would find it hard to turn down the cash for Europe.
It might make it a lot harder for Irish teams to qualify and win it out though.

The tv times being in the same timezone would be a big boost for rugby in SA. It can't be great to be having super games on early Friday/Saturday mornings.

icdg

How are the NZRU, ARU (sorry, I mean Rugby AU) and UAR likely to react to the SARU saying “we want out of Super Rugby, but we still want to be full partners in SANZAAR and play our international rugby in the Southern Hemisphere”. Will it be that simple? Could the other nations threaten to replace the Springboks with Japan in such an instance or would they be happy with that proposition?

Mind you a more Pacific based club championship would probably suit the Australians and New Zealanders, but might make things even harder on the Jaguares. Creating an “Americas” confernce for them to play in might be seen in that context.

Tigerandahalf

The Australians and NZ don't have much choice.
They don't have the tv audience to dictate terms to the SAs. They are probably desperately hoping that the SAs don't pull out and go north to the 6Nations.

Though the talk is the SAs want to stay in the Rugby Championship. Derbies with the All Blacks are still a huge draw.

That's why perhaps we hear a lot about a calendar year format being introduced North and South. The 6 Nations and the Rugby Championship would possibly take place at the same time. It would also allow players contracted up North to play in the Rugby Championship. The 6 Nations are probably more than happy though to stay in their time slot.

I'm not sure what World Rugby wants but money will always dictate to them.

snotboogie

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The Australians and NZ don't have much choice.
They don't have the tv audience to dictate terms to the SAs. They are probably desperately hoping that the SAs don't pull out and go north to the 6Nations.

Though the talk is the SAs want to stay in the Rugby Championship. Derbies with the All Blacks are still a huge draw.

That's why perhaps we hear a lot about a calendar year format being introduced North and South. The 6 Nations and the Rugby Championship would possibly take place at the same time. It would also allow players contracted up North to play in the Rugby Championship. The 6 Nations are probably more than happy though to stay in their time slot.

I'm not sure what World Rugby wants but money will always dictate to them.

I wonder if Super Rugby could hit back? Would a European Super Rugby conference appeal to some English or French clubs given relegation being a constant existential threat to so many of them? Could the big NZ clubs be enough of a draw to negate travel times? I know how crazy it sounds but it's a very interesting time and Super Rugby will have to think outside of the box

connachta

snotboogie wrote: »

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The Australians and NZ don't have much choice.
They don't have the tv audience to dictate terms to the SAs. They are probably desperately hoping that the SAs don't pull out and go north to the 6Nations.

Though the talk is the SAs want to stay in the Rugby Championship. Derbies with the All Blacks are still a huge draw.

That's why perhaps we hear a lot about a calendar year format being introduced North and South. The 6 Nations and the Rugby Championship would possibly take place at the same time. It would also allow players contracted up North to play in the Rugby Championship. The 6 Nations are probably more than happy though to stay in their time slot.

I'm not sure what World Rugby wants but money will always dictate to them.

I wonder if Super Rugby could hit back? Would a European Super Rugby conference appeal to some English or French clubs given relegation being a constant existential threat to so many of them? Could the big NZ clubs be enough of a draw to negate travel times? I know how crazy it sounds but it's a very interesting time and Super Rugby will have to think outside of the box

Get rid of this useless development Connacht province, they'd be happy to play in Super Rugby

Tigerandahalf

I was reading Planet Rugby a while ago and a SA guy was saying the 18 teams with 3 conferences could suit the SAs very well.

10 home/away games against their fellow SAs
Then you have 12 games against the teams from the other 2 conferences, 6 home and 6 away - so only 6 away games in the NH. 2 away games per trip means only 3 trips up to the NH in the regular season.

I see they are looking for a flight sponsor to cover the tournament.

The expanded tournament must also be very attractive for big sponsors - the likes of Guiness, Irish food companies looking to break into Africa and vice versa for SA companies looking to Europe.