Anti-vaxxers

whoopsadoodles

Dohnjoe wrote: »

That is the same argument as decrying that experts used to recommend leeches, so how can we trust them on modern medicine

Leeches (and maggots) are still used in hospitals

mountai wrote: »

I wonder why the Medics refuse to get the flu vaccine ? Someone suggested " Lazy" . I would suggest , as front line people they witness the reactions first hand and decline it because of same . Let's add Vioxx to my list . Produced by the same company that makes Gardasil . Covered up the fact it was capable of killing people . Got caught out and we're fined one billion dollars . Still paying out millions to this day . But let's not question their integrity . Bribing the ICS to the tune of 100000 per annum. People's eyes being opened through social media . I know , let's ship everyone off to Leitrim.

Earlier on the thread you said you were unable to post links. I thought you were a new poster because I was on the touch site and can't see post counts but now I see that you are not new. How come you can't post links to the claims you are making? People will read them if you post them.

Earlier you also kept questioning why the Pil wasn't supplied with the info pack but when I pointed out I was looking at the pack with the QR code and you ignored my post and never mentioned the PIL again.

If you give people links to hard evidence and statistics, they are much more likely to pay attention to your claims.

Interested Observer

mountai wrote: »

I wonder why the Medics refuse to get the flu vaccine ? Someone suggested " Lazy" . I would suggest , as front line people they witness the reactions first hand and decline it because of same .

My SO is a 'medic', specifically she's a doctor working in a hospital, she got that vaccine and I've never heard of what you're mentioning here. She is 100% pro-vaccine, no ifs/buts/caveats. Have you any evidence to show front line staff aren't getting the flu vaccine?

mountai

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

Leeches (and maggots) are still used in hospitals




Earlier on the thread you said you were unable to post links. I thought you were a new poster because I was on the touch site and can't see post counts but now I see that you are not new. How come you can't post links to the claims you are making? People will read them if you post them.

Earlier you also kept questioning why the Pil wasn't supplied with the info pack but when I pointed out I was looking at the pack with the QR code and you ignored my post and never mentioned the PIL again.

If you give people links to hard evidence and statistics, they are much more likely to pay attention to your claims.

No I'm not new and never pretended to be . Let's put it this way , I am ignorant in matters of computers . The grandchildren have given up trying to teach me . I'm old fashioned ,not a victim , respect others point of view , honest and will NOT be beaten down by aggressive posters . Anything I've posted can be verified if it's checked out.

ohnonotgmail

mountai wrote: »

No I'm not new and never pretended to be . Let's put it this way , I am ignorant in matters of computers . The grandchildren have given up trying to teach me . I'm old fashioned ,not a victim , respect others point of view , honest and will NOT be beaten down by aggressive posters . Anything I've posted can be verified if it's checked out.

where exactly can we check them out? If you make claims you need to back them up.

Army_of_One

mountai wrote: »

No I'm not new and never pretended to be . Let's put it this way , I am ignorant in matters of computers . The grandchildren have given up trying to teach me . I'm old fashioned ,not a victim , respect others point of view , honest and will NOT be beaten down by aggressive posters . Anything I've posted can be verified if it's checked out.

Use google to find your evidence....highlight the url of the webpage with the info you want...press ctrl+C and then click in the reply box on boards and press ctrl+v and then hit submit reply.

You make the claims , you back it up.

kylith

mountai wrote: »

I wonder why the Medics refuse to get the flu vaccine ? Someone suggested " Lazy" . I would suggest , as front line people they witness the reactions first hand and decline it because of same . Let's add Vioxx to my list . Produced by the same company that makes Gardasil . Covered up the fact it was capable of killing people . Got caught out and we're fined one billion dollars . Still paying out millions to this day . But let's not question their integrity . Bribing the ICS to the tune of 100000 per annum. People's eyes being opened through social media . I know , let's ship everyone off to Leitrim.

Your question about the flu vaccine was answered upthread: the vast majority do, as it is a matter of policy.

Yes, sometimes companies do evil sh!t, and they are rightly punished for it and regulating bodies keep a closer eye on them.

Do you apply the same vitriol to 'alternative' medicine which lies to people about water being medicine, and sells teething aid bracelets that contain toxic levels of lead? (https://www.livescience.com/60287-teething-bracelet-causes-lead-poisoning.html)

Canis Lupus

mountai wrote: »

No I'm not new and never pretended to be . Let's put it this way , I am ignorant in matters of computers . The grandchildren have given up trying to teach me . I'm old fashioned ,not a victim , respect others point of view , honest and will NOT be beaten down by aggressive posters . Anything I've posted can be verified if it's checked out.

Too old to post links to the information but not so old that you couldn't find the information yourself in the first place?

mountai

Sorry for not addressing the matter of the Pil . Believe it or not , there are many just like me and many more parents who might not be computer literate . There was a recent newspaper campaign encouraging people to read the Pills supplied by chemists in drug packaging . I question the wisdom of the policy of the HSE to deliberately EXCLUDE the Pil from the information pack given to parents. What have they got to hide? . Informed consent is a basic human right . What's wrong with my argument?

ohnonotgmail

mountai wrote: »

Sorry for not addressing the matter of the Pil . Believe it or not , there are many just like me and many more parents who might not be computer literate . There was a recent newspaper campaign encouraging people to read the Pills supplied by chemists in drug packaging . I question the wisdom of the policy of the HSE to deliberately EXCLUDE the Pil from the information pack given to parents. What have they got to hide? . Informed consent is a basic human right . What's wrong with my argument?

If people want to read the Pil then parents can do that. The HSE provides the means for them to do so. If they wanted to hide the information why would they mention the Pil at all?

kylith

mountai wrote: »

Sorry for not addressing the matter of the Pil . Believe it or not , there are many just like me and many more parents who might not be computer literate . There was a recent newspaper campaign encouraging people to read the Pills supplied by chemists in drug packaging . I question the wisdom of the policy of the HSE to deliberately EXCLUDE the Pil from the information pack given to parents. What have they got to hide? . Informed consent is a basic human right . What's wrong with my argument?

But they do provide the information. It's easy to ask someone to show you how to access it.

mountai

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If people want to read the Pil then parents can do that. The HSE provides the means for them to do so. If they wanted to hide the information why would they mention the Pil at all?

The Merck Pil is a single sheet of paper that could be inserted into the HSE fancy brochure . It comes with every medicine that is sold . It even comes with the vials from Merck ( check their website ) . The HSE remove same and instruct schools NOT include any information not supplied by them . BTW , I do wish certain people would grow up and stop trying to ridicule me . You are never too old to learn .

Army_of_One

mountai wrote: »

You are never too old to learn .

Very true...I showed you how to copy/paste links above to back up your argruments.

Wanna give it a try ?

ohnonotgmail

mountai wrote: »

The Merck Pil is a single sheet of paper that could be inserted into the HSE fancy brochure . It comes with every medicine that is sold . It even comes with the vials from Merck ( check their website ) . The HSE remove same and instruct schools NOT include any information not supplied by them . BTW , I do wish certain people would grow up and stop trying to ridicule me . You are never too old to learn .

well clearly if you are unable to provide links to back up your claims this isnt completely true.

endacl

mountai wrote: »

I wonder why the Medics refuse to get the flu vaccine ?

While not a medic, I spent a chunk of years working in a medical environment. I refused the annual flu jab. Not for any of the tinfoil hat reasons you insinuate. I chickened out of the injection.

Simple as that. I was healthy, in good shape, and not at risk of a potential flu infection doing anything more than laying me up for a week (paid). So I chickened out of the jab. Most took the shot. Those that didn't, didn't because they don't like injections.

Anecdotal, I know, but ordinary.

Sorry.

mountai

Interested Observer wrote: »

My SO is a 'medic', specifically she's a doctor working in a hospital, she got that vaccine and I've never heard of what you're mentioning here. She is 100% pro-vaccine, no ifs/buts/caveats. Have you any evidence to show front line staff aren't getting the flu vaccine?

Just Google " Chocolate and I pads " get the information from HSE where the figure of 30percent is quoted . Chocolate and I pads , I ask you .

endacl

mountai wrote: »

The Merck Pil is a single sheet of paper that could be inserted into the HSE fancy brochure . It comes with every medicine that is sold . It even comes with the vials from Merck ( check their website ) . The HSE remove same and instruct schools NOT include any information not supplied by them . BTW , I do wish certain people would grow up and stop trying to ridicule me . You are never too old to learn .

https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf

Here you go. Just point people at this post.

We might ridicule you, but we can be helpful too.



Edit: Not a 'single sheet'. A 28 page document. Not the kind of thing that's routinely inserted into information packs. But incredibly easy to find.

ohnonotgmail

endacl wrote: »

While not a medic, I spent a chunk of years working in a medical environment. I refused the annual flu jab. Not for any of the tinfoil hat reasons you insinuate. I chickened out of the injection.

Simple as that. I was healthy, in good shape, and not at risk of a potential flu infection doing anything more than laying me up for a week (paid). So I chickened out of the jab. Most took the shot. Those that didn't, didn't because they don't like injections.

Anecdotal, I know, but ordinary.

Sorry.

I'm in a group that gets it for free and i dont get it either. The worst that can happen is feeling very unwell for a few days. I'd had real flu before so i know what that feels like. If the flu vaccine was for something that had a high death rate you can be damn sure i would get it.

ohnonotgmail

endacl wrote: »

https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf

Here you go. Just point people at this post.

We might ridicule you, but we can be helpful too.

that doesnt look like the single piece of paper than mountai is claiming. is there another Pil for gardasil?

mountai

Army_of_One wrote: »

Very true...I showed you how to copy/paste links above to back up your argruments.

Wanna give it a try ?

Thank you . Will try when I am on laptop this evening . Can I pm you if I make a balls of it?

Army_of_One

mountai wrote: »

Thank you . Will try when I am on laptop this evening . Can I pm you if I make a balls of it?

of course no problem

mountai

endacl wrote: »

While not a medic, I spent a chunk of years working in a medical environment. I refused the annual flu jab. Not for any of the tinfoil hat reasons you insinuate. I chickened out of the injection.

Simple as that. I was healthy, in good shape, and not at risk of a potential flu infection doing anything more than laying me up for a week (paid). So I chickened out of the jab. Most took the shot. Those that didn't, didn't because they don't like injections.

Anecdotal, I know, but ordinary.

Sorry.

Just as your are entitled to . I salute you , be prepared though .

endacl

mountai wrote: »

Just as your are entitled to . I salute you , be prepared though .

Prepared for what, exactly?

endacl

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that doesnt look like the single piece of paper than mountai is claiming. is there another Pil for gardasil?

Oops.

There is indeed. A six pager....

http://www.medicines.ie/pdfviewer.aspx?isAttachment=true&documentid=11535

whoopsadoodles

This is the page from the booklet which contains link to the PIL.



And this is where it takes you.

https://www.hpra.ie/docs/default-source/vaccine-pils/gardasil-pil.pdf?sfvrsn=8

ohnonotgmail

endacl wrote: »

Oops.

There is indeed. A six pager....

http://www.medicines.ie/pdfviewer.aspx?isAttachment=true&documentid=11535

Is this the leaflet that the HSE gives out with the HPV vaccine?

http://www.hse.ie/eng/health/Immunisation/pubinfo/schoolprog/HPV/hpv-fact-sheet.pdf

It includes the side effects info from the Pil and includes a link to the Pil that you posted. What exactly is being hidden here???

mountai

endacl wrote: »

https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf

Here you go. Just point people at this post.

We might ridicule you, but we can be helpful too.



Edit: Not a 'single sheet'. A 28 page document. Not the kind of thing that's routinely inserted into information packs. But incredibly easy to find.

Thanks for your help . Why ridicule me though . You have obviously followed my posts , have I said anything to offend or ridicule you . All I have done is point out the fact that science is an evolutionary process . What is true and accepted today is not always acceptable tomorrow . I had a relation who was a senior manager in a multinational company . During the course of debate the point was put to me " Do you think people would deliberately set out to damage mankind " ? . The concept is unimaginable to me . Then I found out about Vioxx . At the same time as that scandal broke , a company in China we're diluting their infant milk product . Many children were killed . The principal's office that company were executed ( 5 in total I think) . Not one person from Merck was charged . Don't believe me ? JustGoogle it.

kylith

It's also all over the radio: "For more information visit hpv.ie"

Jawgap

Larbre34 wrote: »

A lot of people very certain of themselves here. Which is fine until you consider it will be a generation yet before statistics of true value can be ascertained.

If a medic / promoter swears in all sincerity that a vaccine is safe to the best of her knowledge and an individual mother similarly swears that her daughter has developed chronic symptoms that she had not displayed in any way before receiving the HPV vaccine, its very hard for an ordinary citizen to disprove either.

So, it comes down to a parent informing themselves on the subject as much as they possibly can and making a choice. And that is fair enough.

But remember, how many medical interventions in the last century were deemed perfectly safe, until they weren't. Don't forget as recently as 2014 the rushed flu vaccine Pandemrix was championed by the medical authorities, until studies across a number of western populations confirmed a 1400% higher risk of narcolepsy and its associated nasty effects in child/adolescent populations who received Pandemrix versus those who did not.

......and it's stuff like this that sets one's pulse racing - it sounds horrendous but is it?

....a 1400% increase is utterly terrifying if the pre-intervention risk was 1 in 100 or even 1 in 1000 - not so much if the historic risk was 1 in 5,000,000.

And just looking at the data - the risk of developing narcolepsy from Pandenrix was assessed at 1 in 19000 (about 5.26 incidents per 100,000) - just above the estimated the prevalence of narcolepsy in the Irish population which the study acknowledges is likely an underestimate.

The swine flu it was targeting killed 22 people in Ireland and at one stage was running at a hospitalisation rate of 113.7 per 100,000 for kids aged 0 to 4 and 38.4 per 100,000 for kids aged 5 to 14.

Orion

mountai wrote: »

REGRET want all parents to be given FULL information necessary to make INFORMED decisions .

They have been. Regret just don't accept the information that has been given.

mountai wrote: »

I and most of REGRET would never advise Parents not to get their child vaccinated .

Oh really? What about the links to complete antivax groups and that the founder brags about never vaccinating her children.

tigger123

Orion wrote: »

They have been. Regret just don't accept the information that has been given.



Oh really? What about the links to complete antivax groups and that the founder brags about never vaccinating her children.

She has 5 unvaccinated children, but fear not!!! Her husband is a homeopath.