Anti-vaxxers

mountai

endacl wrote: »

The children? No problem.

So there are 450 of them registered with REGRET now . It's NOT " All in their heads" .

jh79

mountai wrote: »

So there are 450 of them registered with REGRET now . It's NOT " All in their heads" .

To be fair mountai, these people believe water can cure them, so hardly the best people to judge the cause of the illnesses that their children have.

VinLieger

mountai wrote: »

Start treating the parents and children of REGRET with RESPECT .

Until they can back up their outlandish claims with research of verified scientific value ill treat their emotion based arguments with the contempt they deserve.

jh79

mountai wrote: »

So there are 450 of them registered with REGRET now . It's NOT " All in their heads" .

What caused these illnesses prior to the existence of Garadasil?

Jawgap

mountai wrote: »

So there are 450 of them registered with REGRET now . It's NOT " All in their heads" .

No one is saying it's all in their heads - what they are saying is that the data has yet to be produced that demonstrates the vaccine caused their conditions/symptoms......

.....my reading of it is that the data shows that the incidence of reported symptoms is effectively the same in kids whether they've had the vaccine or not - if the vaccine caused their symptoms you'd expect to see an increased incidence among people who received the vaccine compared agains those who didn't, controlling for other factors.

VinLieger

mountai wrote: »

So there are 450 of them registered with REGRET now . It's NOT " All in their heads" .

Actually it is all in their heads that the vaccines caused this, there is no statistical increase in the issues these girls are reporting since vaccines have started being administered. You may say theres a larger number but yes that's cus our population is growing but statistically the number of people reporting to be suffering from these illnesses regret claim the vaccines cause has remained static which indicates the vaccines have not caused these issues.

Again i point out it just so happens many of these illnesses actually usually appear around the same age the vaccines is administered.

Your arguments are all based on emotion and have zero facts, statsitics or scientific evidence to back them up

kylith

gar32 wrote: »

Polio if it is not wiped out in the next 2 years Maybe.

How do you intend to wipe it out without vaccines?

gar32 wrote: »

All the rest should be only used as needed which should be in rare cases.

You're aware that vaccinating when someone already has the disease is too late, right?

VinLieger wrote: »

Actually it is all in their heads that the vaccines caused this, there is no statistical increase in the issues these girls are reporting since vaccines have started being administered. You may say theres a larger number but yes that's cus our population is growing but statistically the number of people reporting to be suffering from these illnesses regret claim the vaccines cause has remained static which indicates the vaccines have not caused these issues.

Again i point out it just so happens many of these illnesses actually usually appear around the same age the vaccines is administered.

Your arguments are all based on emotion and have zero facts, statsitics or scientific evidence to back them up

I think that, similarly to autism, it seems like there's an increase because nowadays we hear about it. 20 years ago there was no way for a mother in Leitrim to tell the world that her daughter had narcolepsy, now she just has to hop on Facebook.

mountai

kylith wrote: »

How do you intend to wipe it out without vaccines?


You're aware that vaccinating when someone already has the disease is too late, right?



I think that, similarly to autism, it seems like there's an increase because nowadays we hear about it. 20 years ago there was no way for a mother in Leitrim to tell the world that her daughter had narcolepsy, now she just has to hop on Facebook.

Ah yes lets put the people of Leitrim back into the stone age , along with anyone else who expressed a concern about the efficacy of a medical procedure . Us Plebs have gotten out of our boxes , BEWARE .

VinLieger

mountai wrote: »

Ah yes lets put the people of Leitrim back into the stone age , along with anyone else who expressed a concern about the efficacy of a medical procedure . Us Plebs have gotten out of our boxes , BEWARE .

Awww thats cute that you enjoy playing the victim when you have no other way of refuting the fact based arguments put against you

pjohnson

mountai wrote: »

Ah yes lets put the people of Leitrim back into the stone age , along with anyone else who expressed a concern about the efficacy of a medical procedure . Us Plebs have gotten out of our boxes , BEWARE .

1) In the stone age there wasn't much scientific knowledge. You "plebs have gotten out of yer boxes" but still dont have scientific knowledge so SA seems to fit.

2) Always BEWARE of stupidity they may have no malice but they have no concept of self preservation or how dangerous they are.

3) Don't pretend Leitrim is real.

mountai

VinLieger wrote: »

Awww thats cute that you enjoy playing the victim when you have no other way of refuting the fact based arguments put against you

" It's evolution Baby" . Pall Mall and Thalidomide . I certainly am not a victim . Got all vaccines and made sure my Children got the same . You know nothing about me , so don't pretend you do .

pitifulgod

mountai wrote: »

Ah yes lets put the people of Leitrim back into the stone age , along with anyone else who expressed a concern about the efficacy of a medical procedure . Us Plebs have gotten out of our boxes , BEWARE .

The problem is that people such as yourself add a considerable amount of noise to a serious issue with no actual facts to back you. A lack of scientific evidence and no statistical proof makes your claims dangerous and not fact based.

So yep I entirely favour filtering out the noise.

ancapailldorcha

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Calling for (or indeed funding) further research into vaccine safety does not equal “Anti-vaccine”

Except that it does because they have to be extensively tested in order to receive market approval. It's just a weak attempt to make the anti-vaxxer cause seem reasonable.

ancapailldorcha

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're asking the wrong person there Joey, I guess more open discussion of people's concerns and less hand-waving them away, dismissing them as idiots for not just putting their faith in facts, observation and science, would be a good start.

What do you do when they dismiss any sort of evidence just because they don't like it, exactly? If they don't respond to reason then there's no other option.

VinLieger

mountai wrote: »

" It's evolution Baby" . Pall Mall and Thalidomide . I certainly am not a victim . Got all vaccines and made sure my Children got the same . You know nothing about me , so don't pretend you do .

And you know nothing about the vaccines and neither do the people of regret again correlation is not the same as causation.

Also your posts have shown a very basic misunderstanding of how and why herd immunity is so important for vaccines.

Orion

mezzz wrote: »

not surprising to see the regulars shilling for the vaccine here

shill accusation - DRINK!

Orion

mountai wrote: »

Start treating the parents and children of REGRET with RESPECT .

They've been given a lot more respect than they deserve and the line has to be drawn somewhere. They were invited to speak to the Health Committee but then refused to accept the medical evidence that showed they are wrong. They have bent the ear of way too many politicians and still throw tantrums when they don't get what they want. They spread misinformation with absolutely no scientific evidence to back up their claims and when presented with evidence to the contrary saw it's all just big pharma lies.

They act like spoiled brats and it's high time they were stood up to.

Orion

mountai wrote: »

So there are 450 of them registered with REGRET now . It's NOT " All in their heads" .

Nobody has ever said it was. What we are saying is that it's not caused by the vaccine.

Larbre34

A lot of people very certain of themselves here. Which is fine until you consider it will be a generation yet before statistics of true value can be ascertained.

If a medic / promoter swears in all sincerity that a vaccine is safe to the best of her knowledge and an individual mother similarly swears that her daughter has developed chronic symptoms that she had not displayed in any way before receiving the HPV vaccine, its very hard for an ordinary citizen to disprove either.

So, it comes down to a parent informing themselves on the subject as much as they possibly can and making a choice. And that is fair enough.

But remember, how many medical interventions in the last century were deemed perfectly safe, until they weren't. Don't forget as recently as 2014 the rushed flu vaccine Pandemrix was championed by the medical authorities, until studies across a number of western populations confirmed a 1400% higher risk of narcolepsy and its associated nasty effects in child/adolescent populations who received Pandemrix versus those who did not.

kylith

mountai wrote: »

" It's evolution Baby" . Pall Mall and Thalidomide . I certainly am not a victim . Got all vaccines and made sure my Children got the same . You know nothing about me , so don't pretend you do .

Are you really running on a campaign of "50 years ago there weren't enough safety tests, therefore we shouldn't trust modern medicine" despite the fact that the cock-ups of yesteryear have lead to much more stringent and thorough testing?


There have been, what, about 450 cases of a claimed reaction to the vaccine out of circa 200,000 doses given in this country? That's a likelihood of 0.225%: less than a quarter of a percent, which is vanishingly small and three times smaller than getting diagnosed with cervical cancer.

One eyed Jack

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What do you do when they dismiss any sort of evidence just because they don't like it, exactly? If they don't respond to reason then there's no other option.

There's nothing you can do ACD is the only answer I can give you to that one. To go back to my earlier example, because it really is based on individual intuition - I've had many people try and change my beliefs regarding why I would object to blood transfusions, and all I'm thinking in my head is "What part of NO is causing you difficulty exactly?".

You really cannot use facts, observation and science to argue against intuition. It just does not work (and ironically - facts, observation and science should have told you as much!). Resorting to target these people and call them idiots only leads to people who are also questioning what is or isn't in the best interests of their children, to intuitively side with the people they can relate to, rather than recognising the value in facts, observation and science.

Sometimes, as much as it may well be a pain in the hole (actually suppositories, there's another delivery system I'd be against, and thankfully medicine has developed alternative methods of testing for prostate cancer than the finger test too!), but you really do have to try and relate to people on their level rather than expect them to come up to yours - two completely different ways of thinking, and if you want them to come round to your way of thinking, there really are no easy shortcuts. It can take decades, even centuries, for a cultural mind-shift like that to happen.

mountai

Pall Mall -- Thalidomide -- Pandemrix . The list is growing . I'm sure all the experts at the time expounded the virtues of the above , and those that questioned their views we're hounded . Thanks Labre34 for that information. REGRET want all parents to be given FULL information necessary to make INFORMED decisions . I and most of REGRET would never advise Parents not to get their child vaccinated .

kylith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You really cannot use facts, observation and science to argue against intuition. It just does not work (and ironically - facts, observation and science should have told you as much!). Resorting to target these people and call them idiots only leads to people who are also questioning what is or isn't in the best interests of their children, to intuitively side with the people they can relate to, rather than recognising the value in facts, observation and science.

Sometimes, as much as it may well be a pain in the hole (actually suppositories, there's another delivery system I'd be against, and thankfully medicine has developed alternative methods of testing for prostate cancer than the finger test too!), but you really do have to try and relate to people on their level rather than expect them to come up to yours - two completely different ways of thinking, and if you want them to come round to your way of thinking, there really are no easy shortcuts. It can take decades, even centuries, for a cultural mind-shift like that to happen.

A level of frustration is, I think, understandable when dealing with people who, despite having the facts explained to them slowly, in simple terms, over and over and over simply refuse to engage with it. And meanwhile children continue to get sick, and suffer terrible consequences (complications of mumps include meningitis, arthritis, brain inflammation, and deafness) including death (2% chance of death from measles in the US in 1999 (http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/m/measles/prognosis.htm) 2.5million death worldwide before widespread vaccination, now down by 73%). And the only rise in autism is perceptual because of reporting and acceptance (previously people with autism where labelled 'idiots' and put in asylums) and there has been no statistical increase in narcolepsy; a condition which usually first appears at around the age when the HPV vaccine is administered.

It's a situation where 'I'm not letting my child gets vaccinated because I heard some girls fainted' doesn't cut it. Cos you know what's worse than fainting? Cancer! And maybe the vaccine didn't cause the fainting, maybe some kids are just wimps who don't like needles.

ancapailldorcha

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's nothing you can do ACD is the only answer I can give you to that one. To go back to my earlier example, because it really is based on individual intuition - I've had many people try and change my beliefs regarding why I would object to blood transfusions, and all I'm thinking in my head is "What part of NO is causing you difficulty exactly?".

You really cannot use facts, observation and science to argue against intuition. It just does not work (and ironically - facts, observation and science should have told you as much!). Resorting to target these people and call them idiots only leads to people who are also questioning what is or isn't in the best interests of their children, to intuitively side with the people they can relate to, rather than recognising the value in facts, observation and science.

Sometimes, as much as it may well be a pain in the hole (actually suppositories, there's another delivery system I'd be against, and thankfully medicine has developed alternative methods of testing for prostate cancer than the finger test too!), but you really do have to try and relate to people on their level rather than expect them to come up to yours - two completely different ways of thinking, and if you want them to come round to your way of thinking, there really are no easy shortcuts. It can take decades, even centuries, for a cultural mind-shift like that to happen.

Their actions are causing people to get sick which is where the drive to ridicule and scorn them is coming from. It seems to me to be more about posturing on social media and ignorance than intuition and it's frankly dangerous.

If it were as simple as refusing a blood transfusion then I'd have no issue but they're impacting on the health of other people some of whom can't help themselves for whatever reason.

VinLieger

mountai wrote: »

Pall Mall -- Thalidomide -- Pandemrix . The list is growing . I'm sure all the experts at the time expounded the virtues of the above , and those that questioned their views we're hounded . Thanks Labre34 for that information. REGRET want all parents to be given FULL information necessary to make INFORMED decisions . I and most of REGRET would never advise Parents not to get their child vaccinated .

Polio, smallpox, Measles to name but a few the latter of which was close to eradication but has begun resurfacing thanks to the idiots who believe wakefields garbage.

Once again there is NO factual statistical or medical evidence to back up Regrets claims. They are peddling falsehoods and fear mongering. And even IF their claims were true the percentage as explained to you is less than a quarter of 1 percent. You are just as likely to die in a motor accident should ban all motor vehicles?

Herd immunity is required to protect the weakest among us and anyone who says otherwise is selfishly ignorant.

Thalidomide while tragic occurred over 60 years ago it is in no way a relevant comparison to make.

Canis Lupus

Larbre34 wrote: »

A lot of people very certain of themselves here. Which is fine until you consider it will be a generation yet before statistics of true value can be ascertained.

If a medic / promoter swears in all sincerity that a vaccine is safe to the best of her knowledge and an individual mother similarly swears that her daughter has developed chronic symptoms that she had not displayed in any way before receiving the HPV vaccine, its very hard for an ordinary citizen to disprove either.

So, it comes down to a parent informing themselves on the subject as much as they possibly can and making a choice. And that is fair enough.

But remember, how many medical interventions in the last century were deemed perfectly safe, until they weren't. Don't forget as recently as 2014 the rushed flu vaccine Pandemrix was championed by the medical authorities, until studies across a number of western populations confirmed a 1400% higher risk of narcolepsy and its associated nasty effects in child/adolescent populations who received Pandemrix versus those who did not.

Some good reading on wiki. Seems an upper airway infection ie influenza itself is potentially responsible for the narcolepsy. If I'm interpreting it right the vaccine mimicking the virus can cause the narcolepsy (because it's an auto immune disease) but more interesting is that because the actual flu itself causes an increase in narcolepsy the Stanford study still suggested the vaccine should still be used.

Dohnjoe

mountai wrote: »

Pall Mall -- Thalidomide -- Pandemrix . The list is growing . I'm sure all the experts at the time expounded the virtues of the above , and those that questioned their views we're hounded .

That is the same argument as decrying that experts used to recommend leeches, so how can we trust them on modern medicine

We judge modern vaccines based on their results and effectiveness, not by appealing to unrelated treatments

mountai

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Some good reading on wiki. Seems an upper airway infection ie influenza itself is potentially responsible for the narcolepsy. If I'm interpreting it right the vaccine mimicking the virus can cause the narcolepsy (because it's an auto immune disease) but more interesting is that because the actual flu itself causes an increase in narcolepsy the Stanford study still suggested the vaccine should still be used.

I wonder why the Medics refuse to get the flu vaccine ? Someone suggested " Lazy" . I would suggest , as front line people they witness the reactions first hand and decline it because of same . Let's add Vioxx to my list . Produced by the same company that makes Gardasil . Covered up the fact it was capable of killing people . Got caught out and we're fined one billion dollars . Still paying out millions to this day . But let's not question their integrity . Bribing the ICS to the tune of 100000 per annum. People's eyes being opened through social media . I know , let's ship everyone off to Leitrim.

listermint

mountai wrote: »

I wonder why the Medics refuse to get the flu vaccine ? Someone suggested " Lazy" . I would suggest , as front line people they witness the reactions first hand and decline it because of same . Let's add Vioxx to my list . Produced by the same company that makes Gardasil . Covered up the fact it was capable of killing people . Got caught out and we're fined one billion dollars . Still paying out millions to this day . But let's not question their integrity . Bribing the ICS to the tune of 100000 per annum. People's lies being propagated through social media . I know , let's ship everyone off to Leitrim.

Fair slight adjustment i think

mountai

listermint wrote: »

Fair slight adjustment i think

That the best you can come up with?