Anti-vaxxers

Ashbourne hoop

Following on from the flat earthers thread, I was wondering what people thought of, in my opinion, an even more dangerous group, anti vaxxers. Vaccine preventable diseases are on the rise, in the US there were 3 times as many cases of measles then there were in the previous year. Andrew Wakefield, who was discredited as much as any doctor could possibly be, still appears to have huge influence on people. The uptake rate of the HPV vaccine is reportedly down to 50%. Anti-vaxxer views appear to be very popular on social media where statements like "big pharma conspiracy" are common. With all the scientific evidence available, there are still a growing number of anti vaxxers. Be interested in peoples views on this.

cbyrd

This should be fun ....

jester77

These people are dangerous.

Some countries are making it compulsory for children to be vaccinated before they are allowed in daycare or school. Every country should start making this a law to eliminate these nut cases.

Ashbourne hoop

jester77 wrote: »

These people are dangerous.

Some countries are making it compulsory for children to be vaccinated before they are allowed in daycare or school. Every country should start making this a law to eliminate these nut cases.

I agree. I think in Australia you're child needs to be vaccinated before they can go into crèche.

suicide_circus

I thought we were pro choice, no?

Mickeroo

suicide_circus wrote: »

I thought we were pro choice, no?

i'd have no issue with an anti-vaxxer getting an abortion if they wanted.

branie2

They think that the MMR vaccine causes autism

Pherekydes

Kennels won't accept your dog until it's had its shots (kennel cough).

SEPT 23 1989

I think we call all agree that the pharmaceutical conglomerates have our best interests at heart

fizzypish

suicide_circus wrote: »

I thought we were pro choice, no?

My limited understanding is that vaccines are effective at a population level. A group not indulging in the vaccine leads to a hand hold for the ailment to grip onto. If it gains enough momentum then it can also get into the vaccinated population.
Even if vaccines can cause autism/something (I don't know?) in a small percentage of children, its still probably better than the disease going through the population like wild fire. Probably but I don't know the figures.

From a pure numbers point of view, more people are alive with vaccines than without although I have no figures to back this up so maybe I should shut the **** up.....

Grayson

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I think we call all agree that the pharmaceutical conglomerates all the doctors, except for the guy who was struck off for falsifying studies have our best interests at heart

Fixed it for you.

Whispered

Pherekydes wrote: »

Kennels won't accept your dog until it's had its shots (kennel cough).

Not true for all kennels. Some accept dogs without the KC vaccination but you need to sign a waiver that if they catch anything it's your problem. it's different in that there are many strains of KC, it's a virus like the common cold.

mikhail

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I think we call all agree that the pharmaceutical conglomerates have our best interests at heart

And of course the guys selling water to cure cancer are entirely philanthropic too.

LirW

Fighting Tao

jester77 wrote: »

These people are dangerous.

Some countries are making it compulsory for children to be vaccinated before they are allowed in daycare or school. Every country should start making this a law to eliminate these nut cases.

Shoot to kill policy?

judeboy101

Problem is, when you see the devastation caused by the swine flu jab, their arguments are not too crazy

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

Grayson

judeboy101 wrote: »

Problem is, when you see the devastation caused by the swine flu jab, their arguments are not too crazy

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

Did you read to the end of that?

In response to the events in Europe, CDC reviewed data from the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) and the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) and found no indication of any association between U.S.-licensed H1N1 or seasonal influenza vaccine and narcolepsy.

In 2014, CDC published a study on the association between 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccines, 2010/2011 seasonal influenza vaccines, and narcolepsy. The analysis included more than 650,000 people who received the pandemic flu vaccine in 2009 and over 870,000 people who received the seasonal flu vaccine in 2010/2011. The study found that vaccination was not associated with an increased risk for narcolepsy.

ohnonotgmail

judeboy101 wrote: »

Problem is, when you see the devastation caused by the swine flu jab, their arguments are not too crazy

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

what does this have to do with opposition to the MMR vaccine? I doubt most anti-vaxxers have even heard of the H1N1 vaccine.

I agree that they are dangerous

tigger123

The parents are making bad decisions based on scientifically unfounded concerns, and jeopardizing the health of their kids. Its pretty awful.

All based on ****e they read on their FB feed.

Grayson

tigger123 wrote: »

The parents are making bad decisions based on scientifically unfounded concerns, and jeopardizing the health of their kids. Its pretty awful.

All based on ****e they read on their FB feed.

Google took action recently to make sure that accurate results appear for searches on vaccines. Until then if you searched for "Are vaccines bad" you would get loads of dodgy results.

ohnonotgmail

tigger123 wrote: »

The parents are making bad decisions based on scientifically unfounded concerns, and jeopardizing the health of their kids. Its pretty awful.

All based on ****e they read on their FB feed.

well if it was only the health of their own kids they were affected that would be bad enough. They are also affecting the health of kids who cannot have the MMR vaccine and depend on herd immunity. They are putting in danger the lives of children who already have medical problems.

LirW

When my son went to Kindergarten in Austria I found out that 50% of all kids didn't have the most necessary shots (you need to provide the information when you put the name down). That was somewhat shocking. At some point they had chicken pox going through all the rooms, it was awful because almost every kid caught it. It really showed how fast this spreads and it's concerning to think there might be something going around in the same pace that's more serious than chicken pox.

VinLieger

Forced vaccination laws are a slippery slope, doing similar to Australia and not allowing kids attend public schools without them or even holding back certain benefits is the way to go

tigger123

VinLieger wrote: »

Forced vaccination laws are a slippery slope, doing similar to Australia and not allowing kids attend public schools without them or even holding back certain benefits is the way to go

It's an excellent way to tackle it: 'If you're going to put the population of the school at risk, you're not welcome.'

Grayson

LirW wrote: »

When my son went to Kindergarten in Austria I found out that 50% of all kids didn't have the most necessary shots (you need to provide the information when you put the name down). That was somewhat shocking. At some point they had chicken pox going through all the rooms, it was awful because almost every kid caught it. It really showed how fast this spreads and it's concerning to think there might be something going around in the same pace that's more serious than chicken pox.

CDC recommend a chicken pox vaccine.
https://www.cdc.gov/features/preventchickenpox/index.html

Most children with chickenpox completely recover. But it can be serious, even deadly, especially for babies, pregnant women, adolescents, adults, and people with weakened immune systems. Make sure everyone in your family is up to date on their chickenpox vaccinations.

Chickenpox is a very contagious disease. Someone can get it if they have never been vaccinated or had chickenpox. Chickenpox causes a blister-like rash, itching, tiredness, and fever. This leaves a person feeling very sick and uncomfortable, and may cause sick people to miss a week or more of school or work.

Chickenpox can be serious. Before there was a vaccine, each year chickenpox caused about 4 million people to get sick, more than 10,500 hospitalizations, and about 100 to 150 deaths. Most people who get severe chickenpox are healthy beforehand. Read about a healthy teenager who got chickenpox and died.

I've had chickenpox twice. Once as a kid and once as a 18 year old. The second time I had about one blister per square inch including on the inside of my throat. The blisters burst and went septic. I needed liquid antibiotics and survived on ice cream for three days because I couldn't swallow whole foods.

Kids need to be vaccinated against this stuff.

xzanti

Below is an excerpt from the Centre for Disease Control website. I just randomly picked the HPV vaccine, but the advice is similar for most of the vaccines.

I'm not an "anti-vaxxer". My son is vaccinated fully. But I would ponder why there is no allergy test for kids before the vaccines are given. They appear to acknowledge that some are susceptible to allergic reaction. But how are we to know if we're going to have a "life threatening reaction" to a vaccine, if you've never had it before?

I would akin it to handing out peanuts to a class full of kids, who've never had peanuts, without some sort of patch test first.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjemMP2kPLVAhWJJ8AKHd0vAFMQFgg3MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fvaccines%2Fvpd%2Fshould-not-vacc.html&usg=AFQjCNEVCEMw1EcrBwUUORNWItttJv7VuA

HPV (Human Papillomavirus) vaccine
Some people should not get this vaccine.
Anyone who has had a severe (life-threatening) allergic reaction to a dose of HPV vaccine should not get another dose.
Anyone who has a severe (life threatening) allergy to any component of HPV vaccine should not get the vaccine.
Tell your doctor if you have any severe allergies that you know of, including a severe allergy to yeast.
HPV vaccine is not recommended for pregnant women. If you learn that you were pregnant when you were vaccinated, there is no reason to expect any problems for you or your baby. Any woman who learns she was pregnant when she got HPV vaccine is encouraged to contact the manufacturer’s registry for HPV vaccination during pregnancy at 1-800-986-8999. Women who are breastfeeding may be vaccinated.
If you have a mild illness, such as a cold, you can probably get the vaccine today. If you are moderately or severely ill, you should probably wait until you recover. Your doctor can advise you.
This information was taken directly from the HPV VIS

endacl

tigger123 wrote: »

The parents are making bad decisions based on scientifically unfounded concerns, and jeopardizing the health of their kids. Its pretty awful.

Jeapordizing the health of their own kids is one thing. Jeapordizing the healthy of somebody else's immuno-compromised kid is unconscionable.

LirW

Grayson wrote: »

CDC recommend a chicken pox vaccine.
https://www.cdc.gov/features/preventchickenpox/index.html



I've had chickenpox twice. Once as a kid and once as a 18 year old. The second time I had about one blister per square inch including on the inside of my throat. The blisters burst and went septic. I needed liquid antibiotics and survived on ice cream for three days because I couldn't swallow whole foods.

Kids need to be vaccinated against this stuff.

Over there it wasn't recommended back then, therefore you have to pay for it on your own. But when so many haven't any shots at all, you can't expect people to get that one that isn't paid for. It's unbelievable.

alchemist33

The annoying thing about the MMR scandal is that it took Andrew Wakefield being found guilty of misconduct by the GMC to really convince most of the public that the MMR was safe. Before that the MMR/autism thing was a mainstream belief despite there being no credible evidence for it. Wakefield made a name for himself on chatshows on the back of a study involving 12 children, which is absolutely tiny and unscientific to base such an important claim on. There were studies involving thousands which refuted it (I researched this before I had my first child vaccinated) which showed no link but a charismatic man, a scare study and a conspiracy theory somehow seemed to hold more weight with a lot of people. Only for the fact Wakefield went much further than making a spurious claim, and was caught, he'd still be lauded as an anti-establishment hero by some.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Grayson

xzanti wrote: »

Below is an excerpt from the Centre for Disease Control website. I just randomly picked the HPV vaccine, but the advice is similar for most of the vaccines.

I'm not an "anti-vaxxer". My son is vaccinated fully. But I would ponder why there is no allergy test for kids before the vaccines are given. They appear to acknowledge that some are susceptible to allergic reaction. But how are we to know if we're going to have a "life threatening reaction" to a vaccine, if you've never had it before?

I would akin it to handing out peanuts to a class full of kids, who've never had peanuts, without some sort of patch test first.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjemMP2kPLVAhWJJ8AKHd0vAFMQFgg3MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fvaccines%2Fvpd%2Fshould-not-vacc.html&usg=AFQjCNEVCEMw1EcrBwUUORNWItttJv7VuA

That would depend on the rates of peanut allergies Vs the rates of vaccine allergies.

Lots of things like aspirin are given to people without knowing if they have an allergy for it. It's just not practical to test like that.
Plus without the vaccine what are the percentage chances of the kid getting sick and dying?

judeboy101

Grayson wrote: »

Did you read to the end of that?

European and north american not the same batch.

Ashbourne hoop

tigger123 wrote: »

The parents are making bad decisions based on scientifically unfounded concerns, and jeopardizing the health of their kids. Its pretty awful.

All based on ****e they read on their FB feed.

That's it exactly. There is no reasoning with them. Any scientific proof you give them is dismissed as "big pharma"...its quite scary the amount of people who believe this

judeboy101

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

That's it exactly. There is no reasoning with them. Any scientific proof you give them is dismissed as "big pharma"...its quite scary the amount of people who believe this

The same big pharma that experimented on Irish boys and girls in mother and baby homes?

osarusan

If my understanding of the law is correct, a parent who is simply too lazy or disorganised to get their child vaccinated can get into legal trouble for exposing the child to serious risk of harm, but if they make a decision (on whatever principle) not to vaccinate their child, then they can't...even though obviously the exposure to risk is just the same. Completely bizarre, if true.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Ashbourne hoop

judeboy101 wrote: »

The same big pharma that experimented on Irish boys and girls in mother and baby homes?

As I recall it was "big pharma" (GSK)who uncovered and revealed this after they bought one of the labs involved. Nothing really to do with anti vaxxers though.

xzanti

Grayson wrote: »

That would depend on the rates of peanut allergies Vs the rates of vaccine allergies.

Lots of things like aspirin are given to people without knowing if they have an allergy for it. It's just not practical to test like that.
Plus without the vaccine what are the percentage chances of the kid getting sick and dying?

Good point.

But, with vaccines being such a hotly debated and loaded subject among parents. Would it not be in the interest of the Pharmacy industry to provide some sort of reassurance for parents who may be on the fence, or just plain terrified of vaccinating? If they could be told that their child will have an allergy test before the shot is given? If it was even available upon request only.

If it even boosted the rate of vaccinations by a few percent, and saved a few lives, wouldn't it be worth it?

alchemist33

judeboy101 wrote: »

The same big pharma that experimented on Irish boys and girls in mother and baby homes?

No. "Big pharma" is not a single entity.

judeboy101

alchemist33 wrote: »

No. "Big pharma" is not a single entity.

Sire it isn't, same way the tobacco industry isn't.

Any parent that doesn't vaccinate their child should be blocked from receiving any benefits whatsoever with regards to said child - they should lose all child payment. They are the sole reason why in some parts of the world we're getting a resurgence of diseases and illness that haven't been seen for decades.

We vaccinate for a reason.

jamesbere

draiochtanois wrote: »

I think that Facebook is a cancer on society for this among other things.

It's not Facebooks fault, it's the idiots on it that are the problem

LirW

xzanti wrote: »

Good point.

But, with vaccines being such a hotly debated and loaded subject among parents. Would it not be in the interest of the Pharmacy industry to provide some sort of reassurance for parents who may be on the fence, or just plain terrified of vaccinating? If they could be told that their child will have an allergy test before the shot is given? If it was even available upon request only.

If it even boosted the rate of vaccinations by a few percent, and saved a few lives, wouldn't it be worth it?

But what I don't understand is that people take pain killers and a huge amount of other over-the-counter stuff without even questioning it or worrying about allergies. Tampons can have side effects, birth control has side effects (I mean people have latex allergies or react to the lube), many painkillers do. But people usually don't waste a second thinking about these before using it.
Why with vaccines?

I mean when your car breaks or a pipe you consult a mechanic or a plumber and take their expert advise. Why is there so much mistrust when it comes to doctors?

irishgrover

Grayson wrote: »

Did you read to the end of that?

But the CDC study was for the US vaccine, which did not contain the compound that it's EU counterparts had linked to narcolepsy....?
So unless I'm missing something (which is totally possible) I think that your assessment is invalid?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

xzanti

LirW wrote: »

But what I don't understand is that people take pain killers and a huge amount of other over-the-counter stuff without even questioning it or worrying about allergies. Tampons can have side effects, birth control has side effects (I mean people have latex allergies or react to the lube), many painkillers do. But people usually don't waste a second thinking about these before using it.
Why with vaccines?

I mean when your car breaks or a pipe you consult a mechanic or a plumber and take their expert advise. Why is there so much mistrust when it comes to doctors?

Because the things you mention are consumed by grown adults, who are making the choices for themselves.

Parents making choices for their newborn babies or their children is a different story altogether.

That would be my take on it anyway.

tigger123

xzanti wrote: »

Good point.

But, with vaccines being such a hotly debated and loaded subject among parents. Would it not be in the interest of the Pharmacy industry to provide some sort of reassurance for parents who may be on the fence, or just plain terrified of vaccinating? If they could be told that their child will have an allergy test before the shot is given? If it was even available upon request only.

If it even boosted the rate of vaccinations by a few percent, and saved a few lives, wouldn't it be worth it?

Vaccination isn't hotly debated though. Its a tiny subset of parents, and a movement thats far more present online than in real life. They are then taking their own poor decision and making their child potentially suffer for it.

I'd wager that most anti vaxxers have been vaccinated themselves (but that's beside the point).

Nobody decides on a flight that they all of a sudden don't trust the pilot, the airline or the aviation authorities and decide to walk the rest of the way.

blue note

We offer the flu vaccine for free in work and I'm always amazed that only about half of the office take it up. And from talking to those that don't some of them are out of nerves about what a vaccine might do to them. One person is convinced she contracted the flu from the vaccine one year. I think the people with doubts about vaccines are very common.

I like the idea that some country had (I think it was Australia) where you don't get free medical care for treatment of a disease which could have been prevented by vaccination. But there's the obvious problem then of who ends up suffering from this? If the parents decide not to get a kid vaccinated it's their fault, but if he gets sick and they don't want to pay for treatment what happens?

arayess

it is interesting how the consent is thrown out the window in this matter.
I thought consent was an all important concept.

how is forcing a vaccinate on somebody - injecting it into their body any different from other forms of bodily consent.

I know...cos the boards elite says so...we all have freedom of choice once its the choice the mob agree with

arayess

arayess wrote: »

it is interesting how the consent is thrown out the window in this matter.
I thought consent was an all important concept.

how is forcing a vaccinate on somebody - injecting it into their body any different from other forms of bodily consent.

I know...cos the boards elite says so...we all have freedom of choice once its the choice the mob agree with

I would argue that if you're not vaccinating your child, then you're forcing potential deadly and lifechanging illnesses on other children. When did they consent to that?

Again- there's a reason we vaccinate. Just because you're some pseudoscience nitwit who bases their opinion from Facebook posts, doesn't entitle you to putting other children in danger.