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Anti-vaxxers

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    #392
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    How does not having the HPV Vaccine pose a risk to people who have had it?

    Not everyone is able to have vaccines even if they want to. It's those that would be at risk.


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    #393
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    How does not having the HPV Vaccine pose a risk to people who have had it?

    Some people cannot have vaccines, some people just do not develop immunity,. These people depend on herd immunity which requires very high take up of the vaccination..


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    #394
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Karla Future Whirlwind wrote: »
    Not everyone is able to have vaccines even if they want to. It's those that would be at risk.

    I think the lead on from there is, what's the difference between someone who abstains and someone who can't be vaccinated. The concept of herd vaccination should be acceptable for someone who abstains.


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    #395
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,215 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I think the lead on from there is, what's the difference between someone who abstains and someone who can't be vaccinated. The concept of herd vaccination should be acceptable for someone who abstains.

    You need about 95% coverage to achieve herd immunity whereupon the disease can no longer spread and goes into decline.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #396
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You need about 95% coverage to achieve herd immunity whereupon the disease can no longer spread and goes into decline.

    Fair enough. I'm not denying the effectiveness of vaccines. I'm just proposing that as a defense for those who abstain. The don't see the distinction in why some don't vaccinate, just that they don't.


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    #397
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Fair enough. I'm not denying the effectiveness of vaccines. I'm just proposing that as a defense for those who abstain. The don't see the distinction in why some don't vaccinate, just that they don't.

    You just don't understand herd immunity. Simples.


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    #398
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    You just don't understand herd immunity. Simples.

    What are you on about? I was indicating Anti-Vaxxers potential arrogance. Go back to compare the meerkat.


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    #399
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,215 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Fair enough. I'm not denying the effectiveness of vaccines. I'm just proposing that as a defense for those who abstain. The don't see the distinction in why some don't vaccinate, just that they don't.

    Thing is, if too many abstain then vaccine uptake dips below 95% increasing the chance for pathogens, especially RNA-based viruses like Measle to mutates so that the protection resulting from vaccination becomes worthless. A portion of the population can't be vaccinated for various reasons which is where the 95% figure comes from.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #400
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I think the lead on from there is, what's the difference between someone who abstains and someone who can't be vaccinated. The concept of herd vaccination should be acceptable for someone who abstains.

    herd immunity depends on a very high uptake of the vaccine. (mid to high 90% depending on pathogen). There is a small but significant group who cannot be vaccinated or who will not develop immunity despite vaccination. This is outside their control.

    However if people start to decide "well I will be covered by herd immunity" then you do not achieve a high enough take up and you never develop herd immunity.

    If you develop herd immunity then after a while there is no longer a need to immunize anyone as the disease is wiped out (Smallpox)

    The frustrating part is we were so close to wiping out a number of diseases until this anti vax bull became an issue.


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    #401
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Thing is, if too many abstain then vaccine uptake dips below 95% increasing the chance for pathogens, especially RNA-based viruses like Measle to mutates so that the protection resulting from vaccination becomes worthless. A portion of the population can't be vaccinated for various reasons which is where the 95% figure comes from.

    You only have to look at the measles outbreak that occurred last year......40 cases, 19 hospitalisations......and 20% of those who suffered were infants to young to be immunised.....that's why we need herd immunity, to protect those who are vulnerable rather than those who choose to freeload.


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    #402
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I think the lead on from there is, what's the difference between someone who abstains and someone who can't be vaccinated. The concept of herd vaccination should be acceptable for someone who abstains.
    What do you think happens when 50% of people don't get vaccinated because they think herd immunity will protect them? Below a certain % of immunisation there is no herd immunity.


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    #403
    danmanw8
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭danmanw8


    jester77 wrote: »
    These people are dangerous.

    Some countries are making it compulsory for children to be vaccinated before they are allowed in daycare or school. Every country should start making this a law to eliminate these nut cases.

    Definitely. Certain celebrities like Jim Carrey are on the anti-vaxxer train and are vocal about it, which doesn't help


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    #404
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    kylith wrote: »
    What do you think happens when 50% of people don't get vaccinated because they think herd immunity will protect them? Below a certain % of immunisation there is no herd immunity.

    50% is already about 40% too low for herd immunity to work, once it drops below 90% there is potential for a cascade of infections that can even then infect vaccinated people as no vaccine is 100% effective, its again only the amount of people vaccinated around you that is the real protection.


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    #405
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,671 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    danmanw8 wrote: »
    Definitely. Certain celebrities like Jim Carrey are on the anti-vaxxer train and are vocal about it, which doesn't help


    Expect a massive rise in the numbers of parents who will simply choose to home-school their children if they are expected to have to vaccinate their children as a condition of allowing access to education -


    California home school interest surges as parents choose to sidestep vaccination law


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    #406
    branie2
    Registered Users Posts: 10,292 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    Robert de Niro is also an anti-vaxxer


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    #407
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Expect a massive rise in the numbers of parents who will simply choose to home-school their children if they are expected to have to vaccinate their children as a condition of allowing access to education -


    California home school interest surges as parents choose to sidestep vaccination law

    Good, if they choose to put others at risk then they shouldn't have access to state education or benefits.

    Its a disgustingly selfish and irresponsible action to take


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    #408
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,215 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Expect a massive rise in the numbers of parents who will simply choose to home-school their children if they are expected to have to vaccinate their children as a condition of allowing access to education -


    California home school interest surges as parents choose to sidestep vaccination law

    Lots of Americans already home school their children. It's not really a European thing at all. I'd say the enthusiasm of any anti-vaxxers on this side of the pond will dissipate sharpish once they realise that work will be involved.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #409
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,671 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Good, if they choose to put others at risk then they shouldn't have access to state education or benefits.

    Its a disgustingly selfish and irresponsible action to take


    Well of course while it's true that they shouldn't have access to state education and benefits... actually that's an interesting one, I hadn't thought that the parents could be denied child benefit, medical cards, jobseekers or disability allowance, etc, in this country anyway, but it appears to be more affluent, already well-educated parents seem to be shunning vaccinations in favour of an alternative parenting lifestyle anyway...

    I digress, what I meant to say is that it still doesn't provide any solution to the issue of parents who choose not to vaccinate their children making the idea of herd immunity as was pointed out previously - effectively useless. These children will still mix and mingle in public, in neighbourhoods with other children, and will still be vulnerable themselves.

    That's something that will have to be addressed by Government and the HSE, so from that point of view, no, it's not good at all really.


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    #410
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Expect a massive rise in the numbers of parents who will simply choose to home-school their children if they are expected to have to vaccinate their children as a condition of allowing access to education -


    California home school interest surges as parents choose to sidestep vaccination law

    Unfortunately it's because of such morons that the likes of measles hasn't been entirely eradicated. The US were far closer to eradication of it than Europe would be but it's been making a return in the last few years. It's rather bleak that ignorance is what's preventing illnesses from being eradicated at this stage.


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    #411
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Anti vaccination ideology is terrifying. Not the arguments of the individuals, but the fact they exist in such committed form in a fair number.


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    #412
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,215 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Anti vaccination ideology is terrifying. Not the arguments of the individuals, but the fact they exist in such committed form in a fair number.

    I find that the arguments consist of some combination of stupidity, narcissism and ignorance. The fact that they're meeting with support instead of ridicule is worrying.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #413
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,671 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Lots of Americans already home school their children. It's not really a European thing at all. I'd say the enthusiasm of any anti-vaxxers on this side of the pond will dissipate sharpish once they realise that work will be involved.


    It's fast becoming a trend here too though, like proportionately speaking in comparison to the numbers of children in public education and home schooled in the US, Ireland really wouldn't be that far behind in comparative terms. I can't find exact figures now but the last time I looked I was pretty shocked. It's not entirely related to being anti-vax either, but more so that they feel the public school system isn't something they want for their children either.


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    #414
    gar32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭gar32


    There are 700 girls going to court also Japan and Korea have 1000's who's life have been ruined by hpv vaccine. How many people have to be damaged before people believe that this risk is real?


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    #415
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    gar32 wrote: »
    There are 700 girls going to court also Japan and Korea have 1000's who's life have been ruined by hpv vaccine. How many people have to be damaged before people believe that this risk is real?

    And where is the evidence their health conditions were caused by the vaccine?


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    #416
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,233 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    gar32 wrote: »
    There are 700 girls going to court also Japan and Korea have 1000's who's life have been ruined by hpv vaccine. How many people have to be damaged before people believe that this risk is real?
    None. A causative link has to be established. What you're talking about is correlation.

    Although, I suspect that this has been pointed out to you before and you won't have paid a blind bit of notice...

    :rolleyes:


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    #417
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,233 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I find that the arguments consist of some combination of stupidity, narcissism and ignorance. The fact that they're meeting with support instead of ridicule is worrying.
    It's the post modern intellectual malaise. Simply having an opinion renders that opinion worthy of consideration. And all of a sudden, we're stuck with 'the other side of the argument', as if that 'other side' carried as much weight.

    It's just another slice of the intelligent design/fluoride is bad/whateveryourhavingyourself stupidity pie.


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    #418
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,233 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    branie2 wrote: »
    Robert de Niro is also an anti-vaxxer
    So? He's a grownup who dresses up and plays make believe for a living.

    :)


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    #419
    boombang
    Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭boombang


    gar32 wrote: »
    There are 700 girls going to court also Japan and Korea have 1000's who's life have been ruined by hpv vaccine. How many people have to be damaged before people believe that this risk is real?

    There's been a particular problem of spurious claims going unchallenged in Japan. They have a very poor record of cervical cancer prevention for such a rich country. The Japanese medical establishment had been particularly passive in the face of misinformation from anti vaxxers.


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    #420
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    but it appears to be more affluent, already well-educated parents seem to be shunning vaccinations in favour of an alternative parenting lifestyle anyway...

    What an odd albeit atypical for you chip on shoulder claim to make.

    Do you have an iota of evidence to back it up?


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    #421
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    gar32 wrote: »
    There are 700 girls going to court also Japan and Korea have 1000's who's life have been ruined by hpv vaccine. How many people have to be damaged before people believe that this risk is real?

    Correlation is not the same as causation, there is zero statistical increase of the issues these people are sufferring from as compared to before the vaccine was cisculated. It just so happens that many of these issues reported typically surface at the age the vaccine is administered and its unfortunate that they were going to fall ill with them regardless of the vaccine


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