Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

Options
1235724

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭flaneur


    Well, you can always buy another SIM card if your That worried.

    The main reason I would assume is some kind of use of mobiles as 2 factor authentication with the card much like what Gmail, banks, Facebook etc all do.

    But I can see why people wouldn't necessarily want that level of connected ID.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Don't most people claim the civil service is bloated and over staffed. Maybe they had enough already
    Yes, most people who know nothing about it do claim that, though the formal comparisons from OECD and others suggest otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Bringing the phone is also optional.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,787 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You have to verify your identity to the State in order to get a driving licence, passport or to claim welfare benefits. It makes no sense at all to have to go through three different processes to do these, rather than doing it once.

    I'm just annoyed this wasn't done when biometric passports and driving licences were brought in. Better a bit late than never, however.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,929 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Bringing the phone is also optional.

    Yes they just say "you should bring it" so I suppose you can leave it in your pocket. But how many people are just handing over the phone without any idea of the implications?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭flaneur


    Biometric passports were effectively slammed through by the USA after 9/11.
    The state would have had to have had a lot of infrastructure in place to rollout that as ID documents.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭flaneur


    elperello wrote: »
    Yes they just say "you should bring it" so I suppose you can leave it in your pocket. But how many people are just handing over the phone without any idea of the implications?

    Considering people accept insane permissions on Android apps without bathing an eyelid, I would doubt it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    This has been explained multiple of times in this thread already. The €1.7m figure comes from the number of people who have actually been caught in the act of defrauding the State.

    Read my post again I specifically was only taking about people caught in the act of fraud .

    Tatranska said that was a large number of people according to a presentation he was at

    I called that presentation flannel ( and I've been at presentations where there was flannel ) since if €1.7m is divided by "large numbers" say 1000 people then you are talking about €1,700 each over the last 5 years etc so about €300 a year or about €6 a week .

    So that presentational is flannel since to get to "large figures" we have to count very small scale fraud and the C&AG office has found error rather that an intent to defraud an issue especially at that level .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    elperello wrote: »
    From -

    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Public-Services-Card_holder.aspx


    You must bring certain documents with you to your appointment to prove your identity and address. You should also bring your mobile phone, if you have one. Having your mobile phone with you when you are SAFE registered means that we can “pair” that mobile phone number with you. This makes it much easier for you to verify your MyGovID account which is required should you wish to access public services online in the future.

    They want to "pair" you with your mobile number.


    It's an extra facility that they offer, works great too! Enables one to look at one's PRSI contributions online - very handy for checking eligibility for DSP schemes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,929 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    flaneur wrote: »
    Considering people accept insane permissions on Android apps without bathing an eyelid, I would doubt it.

    You could be right but I am increasingly becoming like the lad on the bus in that old ad, remember the one "I don't know what a tracker mortgage is.."

    There are a lot of questions and not enough answers about this PSC business.
    We need more details and a proper informed debate.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    Why not? You've outlined the basis for the calculation yourself.

    They could produce raw data - but converting that into reliable information, rather than mere assumption, would be a massive challenge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    elperello wrote: »
    We need more details and a proper informed debate.

    This x 1000


  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭taylor3


    Just wondering about when re-newing my driving licence. My current driving license is due to expire at the end of October. I currently have a PSC cause I claim child benefit. My question is do I need to produce my PSC to 're-new' my licence or is it a requirement only for first time applications for driving license.
    Cheers.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    elperello wrote: »
    From -

    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Public-Services-Card_holder.aspx


    You must bring certain documents with you to your appointment to prove your identity and address. You should also bring your mobile phone, if you have one. Having your mobile phone with you when you are SAFE registered means that we can “pair” that mobile phone number with you. This makes it much easier for you to verify your MyGovID account which is required should you wish to access public services online in the future.

    They want to "pair" you with your mobile number.

    The amusing part here is that without a national identity system people end up having to provide more personal data than is necessary in order to be identified, government systems need to store more personal data than is necessary in order to operate and government employees need access to more personal data in order to be able to confirm they are dealing with the correct person....

    And of course it all ends up being more expensive than it need be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Squatter wrote: »
    They could produce raw data - but converting that into reliable information, rather than mere assumption, would be a massive challenge.
    So why bring it into the argument then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    taylor3 wrote: »
    Just wondering about when re-newing my driving licence. My current driving license is due to expire at the end of October. I currently have a PSC cause I claim child benefit. My question is do I need to produce my PSC to 're-new' my licence or is it a requirement only for first time applications for driving license.
    Cheers.

    No, I renewed my licence last month and don't have a psc.

    I don't understand why I cant use my licence as id if I need to id myself to the state, after all they did issue it, it has my picture on it which was taken by them and I had to produce proof of my address and rsi number to get the licence.

    Seems like its just an ID tax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭taylor3


    RustyNut wrote: »
    No, I renewed my licence last month and don't have a psc.

    I don't understand why I cant use my licence as id if I need to id myself to the state, after all they did issue it, it has my picture on it which was taken by them and I had to produce proof of my address and rsi number to get the licence.

    Seems like its just an ID tax.

    I use AIB and they always ask me for id, to which I hand over my driving license and they accept that (up to 4 weeks ago at least). I have a psc and I literally have never ever used it, it just sits in my purse doing nothing.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    RustyNut wrote: »
    No, I renewed my licence last month and don't have a psc.

    I don't understand why I cant use my licence as id if I need to id myself to the state, after all they did issue it, it has my picture on it which was taken by them and I had to produce proof of my address and rsi number to get the licence.

    Seems like its just an ID tax.

    As time goes on, more security is added to the existing system. The old paper driving licences were an affront to security, only beating the cornflake box cut out because they were pink. The new CC one is much more secure.

    To get the PSC you must present yourself and be photographed to get it, plus have added items to prove that you are who you say you are.

    Currently, if I contact my bank they will ask me a few security questions. Usually they ask for my dob, my address, and occasionally my mobile phone number. All these bits of information are trivial to collect. If I had a government ID, then that would be all I need. Greater security, and perhaps less personal data floating about.

    40 years ago, identity theft was something Frederick Forsyth wrote about in 'the day of the Jackal', and not an everyday unfortunate scam. Times have changed and governments have moved to tighten such matters, for example cross referencing death certs with birth certs so Mr Forsythes anti-hero would have been caught at the first attempt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt





    Bring it on - it'll cut down on a great deal of fraud especially among non-nationals.



    .
    Just to set the record straight. It was found that the majority of fraudulent social welfare claims were by Irish Nationals, including little old ladies in their 70's.
    Non nationals were in the minority.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Read my post again I specifically was only taking about people caught in the act of fraud .

    Tatranska said that was a large number of people according to a presentation he was at

    I called that presentation flannel ( and I've been at presentations where there was flannel ) since if €1.7m is divided by "large numbers" say 1000 people then you are talking about €1,700 each over the last 5 years etc so about €300 a year or about €6 a week .

    So that presentational is flannel since to get to "large figures" we have to count very small scale fraud and the C&AG office has found error rather that an intent to defraud an issue especially at that level .
    I said large numbers signed off without explanation when they were required to get a card.
    Facial recognition was putting an end to Joe Murphy signing in at 2 different addresses, though they did have identical twins which caused problems when both got cards!


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 27,810 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    RustyNut wrote: »
    No, I renewed my licence last month and don't have a psc.

    I don't understand why I cant use my licence as id if I need to id myself to the state, after all they did issue it, it has my picture on it which was taken by them and I had to produce proof of my address and rsi number to get the licence.

    Seems like its just an ID tax.

    An ID tax?

    Since when do you have to pay for one?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I said large numbers signed off without explanation when they were required to get a card.
    Facial recognition was putting an end to Joe Murphy signing in at 2 different addresses, though they did have identical twins which caused problems when both got cards!

    How large is the large number?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    I said large numbers signed off without explanation when they were required to get a card.
    Facial recognition was putting an end to Joe Murphy signing in at 2 different addresses, though they did have identical twins which caused problems when both got cards!

    This is what you said
    I heard a presentation on this a few months ago. There are huge numbers signing off the dole without explanation and equally large numbers being caught for impersonation and fraud.
    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,810 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Why not? That would be a fairly straightforward correlation to make.


    Do you really think that is the reason people would use?

    Oh, I am signing off because

    (a) my circumstances have changed, or

    (b) I have been claiming fraudulently for years and the new card means I will get caught

    Now which do you think is given as the reason to the social welfare officer?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Do you really think that is the reason people would use?

    Oh, I am signing off because

    (a) my circumstances have changed, or

    (b) I have been claiming fraudulently for years and the new card means I will get caught

    Now which do you think is given as the reason to the social welfare officer?

    I didn't say anything about the reason given. People keep telling me that loads of people sign off when told to register for the card. I'm just asking how many people signed off? Why is that so hard to answer?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,337 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    taylor3 wrote:
    Just wondering about when re-newing my driving licence. My current driving license is due to expire at the end of October. I currently have a PSC cause I claim child benefit. My question is do I need to produce my PSC to 're-new' my licence or is it a requirement only for first time applications for driving license. Cheers.

    Not at the moment but it will be arty shine point in the future.
    taylor3 wrote:
    I use AIB and they always ask me for id, to which I hand over my driving license and they accept that (up to 4 weeks ago at least). I have a psc and I literally have never ever used it, it just sits in my purse doing nothing.

    Which is why there is an outcry about people imagining it is a national ID card. You only need it for pubic services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    .
    Which is why there is an outcry about people imagining it is a national ID card. You only need it for pubic services.

    The word not mentioned there is currently .

    Because they are planning to get rid of the restriction in the Social Welfare Bill 2017 about offering to show it to an unspecified body (specified bodies are basically Govt Depts ) being an offence

    https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/900038915666710528

    Currently banks such as the AIB are not allowed to accept it as proof of identify even if you voluntarily offer it .

    Possibly people are worried it may become the only acceptable form of ID in future


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭Dublinstiofán


    I went in the other day to get one of these and the lady I met there told me that the passport office wouldn't renew her passport unless she had one of these Public Services Cards which was causing all sorts of problems for her as she is due to travel next Friday.

    It seems like another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing amongst government departments. It would seem that while this is not 'Mandatory' It will certainly be a requirement for basic services sooner or later. From June 16th this year, you cant book in for a drivers theory test for any new category of driving license if you don't have the code from the back of a public services card, and from the sounds of it you cant get a passport either unless you have one.

    My advise would be to get one now to save yourself hassle down the line, apparently they last seven years. The office was packed with people trying to get them for one reason or another on Thursday.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    How large is the large number?

    I can't remember the figures.

    As I also said, it was the Irish who were the main cheaters not the foreigners!


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I went in the other day to get one of these and the lady I met there told me that the passport office wouldn't renew her passport unless she had one of these Public Services Cards which was causing all sorts of problems for her as she is due to travel next Friday.

    It seems like another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing amongst government departments. It would seem that while this is not 'Mandatory' It will certainly be a requirement for basic services sooner or later. From June 16th this year, you cant book in for a drivers theory test for any new category of driving license if you don't have the code from the back of a public services card, and from the sounds of it you cant get a passport either unless you have one.

    My advise would be to get one now to save yourself hassle down the line, apparently they last seven years. The office was packed with people trying to get them for one reason or another on Thursday.
    If it stops people getting passports under false pretences and stops people giving fraudulent details when registering cars, then I'm all for it.
    Why we don't have a national ID like the rest of Europe (excluding UK) is beyond me.


Advertisement