Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

Sam Russell

BarryM wrote: »

I pointed out earlier that I got a PSC as a replacement for my existing free travel card. I didn't ask for it. My original free travel card didn't have a photo, the PSC does, the photo is copied from my driving license.

This may not be a trick, but it sure is an indication of a methodology of sharing the data. I was never asked to authorise that, the driving license office took the photo. AFAIK, it is that aspect, amongst others, that the Data Commissioner has asked to be clarified and the Min of Finance has said needs re-examination.

Seems reasonable to me, as DRI says in the blog, if you are going to do it, do it right.

Did you send the FTP back to them because the obtained your photo without first asking your permission?

Did you offer to go into the local office to get a new photo taken?

How would you prefer they dealt with you?

The Gov are increasing security wrt ID and addresses. Eircode has been introduced to identify all addresses uniquely and now the PSC is trying to uniquely identify individuals to their PPS number through a biometric photograph, taken by the Gov authorised office.

Maybe a public discussion would help clear up public disquiet. Secrecy and subterfuge is normal for our Governments and our politicians - a bad habit.

antoinolachtnai

Maybe someone will explain a good reason why your mother's maiden name needs to be on the card?

whiskeygirl

If gov wants to bring in an ID card, legislate for one and do it properly and eliminate the grey area bs of the PSC o not being compulsory, but in reality it pretty much is if you want to live a normal life and drive, travel outside the state etc.

This just a shambles, typically Irish in other words. Can't fathom how anyone could support this current situation.

jem

Its all about the cash.
They signed a contract for x amount of them.
People didn take them up so they are forcing them on people to make up the numbers.

Sam Russell

jem wrote: »

Its all about the cash.
They signed a contract for x amount of them.
People didn take them up so they are forcing them on people to make up the numbers.

There may be some truth in that. I think they need to get to 3 million by year end to get some class of discount. I think they cost in the order of €30 each. Cheaper than a passport or a driving licence.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are people getting so worked up about getting a plastic card that identifies them to Government departments?

Because it has been issued to damn close to 3m people without any proper policy analysis, debate or supporting legislation. The whole process has been driven by officials, not by any policy imperative.

blanch152

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Because it has been issued to damn close to 3m people without any proper policy analysis, debate or supporting legislation. The whole process has been driven by officials, not by any policy imperative.

Except it has been subject to a policy imperative, and the rollout of digital services has been part of party manifestos, government agreements and public sector strategic plans for the last decade. Here are some links on e-government.


http://e.gov.ie/reporting/

http://ictstrategy.per.gov.ie/ictstrategy/executivesummary.html


It has also been a high priority at EU level to further enhance the Single Market:

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/european-egovernment-action-plan-2016-2020


Ultimately, if you want this type of integrated public service, you need an identity authenticator such as the public services card.

It is just that people haven't been paying attention

jem

it does seem that this tread has gone down party lines a fair bit which is a pity.

AndrewJRenko

blanch152 wrote: »

Except it has been subject to a policy imperative, and the rollout of digital services has been part of party manifestos, government agreements and public sector strategic plans for the last decade. Here are some links on e-government.


http://e.gov.ie/reporting/

http://ictstrategy.per.gov.ie/ictstrategy/executivesummary.html


It has also been a high priority at EU level to further enhance the Single Market:

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/european-egovernment-action-plan-2016-2020

From http://e.gov.ie/reporting/results/?action=35

The Department of Social Protection, in conjunction with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, will seek Government approval to mandate all public bodies to use the Public Services Card and/or associated data services as the means of accessing their high-value services.

So when was this approved by Government?

blanch152 wrote: »

Ultimately, if you want this type of integrated public service, you need an identity authenticator such as the public services card.

It is just that people haven't been paying attention

That's a nice big leap that you've made there. Why do you need a PSC for integrated public services?

jem

jem wrote: »

Its all about the cash.
They signed a contract for x amount of them.
People didn take them up so they are forcing them on people to make up the numbers.

Have you a link to this?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are people getting so worked up about getting a plastic card that identifies them to Government departments?

Because it has been issued to damn close to 3m people without any proper policy analysis, debate or supporting legislation. The whole process has been driven by officials, not by any policy imperative.

Driven by officials who know what information is needed to be included on a card to ensure speedy and correct support when needed. It's been issued over the past few years with no fuss. Can't understand the problem now.

TheChizler

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

From http://e.gov.ie/reporting/results/?action=35
So when was this approved by Government?

Considering it's not mandatory for every public body to use they still have time to make that request for approval.

TheChizler

Organised getting mine last week to see what all the fuss was about, and it would be handy to have an extra form of ID when they relax the usage rules. Online process was smooth, got an appointment right away for Tuesday, people in the Intreo office were lovely and very helpful (when I wasn't able to find my birth cert they arranged to get it), arrived yesterday.

Only complaint is that the lighting in my photo makes me look like I have 2 massive black eyes.

antoinolachtnai

blanch152 wrote: »

Except it has been subject to a policy imperative, and the rollout of digital services has been part of party manifestos, government agreements and public sector strategic plans for the last decade. Here are some links on e-government.


http://e.gov.ie/reporting/

http://ictstrategy.per.gov.ie/ictstrategy/executivesummary.html


It has also been a high priority at EU level to further enhance the Single Market:

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/european-egovernment-action-plan-2016-2020


Ultimately, if you want this type of integrated public service, you need an identity authenticator such as the public services card.

It is just that people haven't been paying attention

Not been consulted upon as far as I know. A load of online agenda notes are not the same as a law or a policy. They are just hobby-horses.

A plastic card with a chip is simply no use to identify people online. If an appropriate card were specified, it could be used in conjunction with a card reader I suppose, but what we have doesn't have any type of function like that.

Denmark is getting on just fine without an ID card. (They do, on the other hand, have a device which is somewhat suitable for e-government type activities.)

I just don't understand what need we would have for a national biometric database to do what you describe.

And none of it explains why the person's mother's maiden name would need to be on the card.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

Driven by officials who know what information is needed to be included on a card to ensure speedy and correct support when needed. It's been issued over the past few years with no fuss. Can't understand the problem now.

I don't understand the problem either, people give more personal information to Facebook, Twitter, Google, their bank, their car hire company, Instagram, Snapchat, Apple and every damn app on their phone. Giving a bit of personal information in order to get your pension/dole/passport shouldn't be a problem.

blanch152

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Not been consulted upon as far as I know. A load of online agenda notes are not the same as a law or a policy. They are just hobby-horses.

A plastic card with a chip is simply no use to identify people online. If an appropriate card were specified, it could be used in conjunction with a card reader I suppose, but what we have doesn't have any type of function like that.

Denmark is getting on just fine without an ID card. (They do, on the other hand, have a device which is somewhat suitable for e-government type activities.)

I just don't understand what need we would have for a national biometric database to do what you describe.

And none of it explains why the person's mother's maiden name would need to be on the card.

It's all there in the links I provided, there is plenty of material to explain.

E-government isn't just about frontline provision of services, it is about back-office integration where the key savings will be made, and a necessary precondition for that is a single method of identity authentication which the PSC provides.

antoinolachtnai

If you think there is a European requirement to introduce a biometric identity card you are just plain wrong. This is simply not true.

What does a card which only provides for face-to-face authentication (and badly at that, there is no apparent way to check if the card is genuine at the moment) help with 'back end integration'. What are these "key savings" that are to be made, that cannot be made without a PSC?

blanch152

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you think there is a European requirement to introduce a biometric identity card you are just plain wrong. This is simply not true.

What does a card which only provides for face-to-face authentication (and badly at that, there is no apparent way to check if the card is genuine at the moment) help with 'back end integration'. What are these "key savings" that are to be made, that cannot be made without a PSC?

Where did I say that there "is a European requirement to introduce a biometric identity card"???!????

How can I be wrong about something I haven't said?

antoinolachtnai

You are trying to imply it. You are trying to imply that a compulsory card with allied biometric database is somehow core to the 2015 strategy documents you linked to. It isn't. It has nothing to do with it.

Based on your links to those documents, you make the claim:

Ultimately, if you want this type of integrated public service, you need an identity authenticator such as the public services card.

It is just that people haven't been paying attention

And this is simply not true.

Ragnar Lothbrok

Yesterday I needed to collect something at the Post Office and forgot to bring photo ID with me (passport or driving licence).

Fortunately, I had my PSC in my wallet. Didn't expect to use it until I retired and yet there it was - coming to my rescue just a few weeks after I received it

I'm not at all hung up about whether or not the PSC gives governments, secret services or anyone else access to my private details - it's naive to think that anyone who needs these details can't already access them if they really want to

blanch152

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are trying to imply it. You are trying to imply that a compulsory card with allied biometric database is somehow core to the 2015 strategy documents you linked to. It isn't. It has nothing to do with it.

Based on your links to those documents, you make the claim:



And this is simply not true.

You are drawing conclusions I haven't made.

Only one of the links I have provided links to an EU document, another is to an Irish portal with hundreds of documents.

Sam Russell

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you think there is a European requirement to introduce a biometric identity card you are just plain wrong. This is simply not true.

What does a card which only provides for face-to-face authentication (and badly at that, there is no apparent way to check if the card is genuine at the moment) help with 'back end integration'. What are these "key savings" that are to be made, that cannot be made without a PSC?

As I have pointed out several times, the PSC is only a way to link the PPS number to the biometric photo on it. The card does nothing.

There are plans, I could well believe, to add a PIN so that another level of validation is included, so when you go for your payment from the Post Office, you can validate your card with a PIN, and your photo pops up on the screen - perhaps for you to be recognised as the owner of the PSC, and due your few bob.

Given the fuss, it would make a lot of sense to get a bill together to outline a legal framework for the card.

gizmo555

Coming back to the thread title, Elaine Edwards reports in today's (06/09/17) "Irish Times" that the Data Protection Commissioner wrote to the Dept of Social Protection a year ago, warning that scope creep risked turning the PSC into a de facto national identity card. The DSP tried to block release of the warning under Freedom of Information with a baseless and nonsensical claim that it was not in the public interest, because it would harm "public confidence" in the PSC - a claim which was entirely rejected by the Information Commissioner.

The Data Protection Commissioner told the head of the Department of Social Protection last year that there was a risk the public services card (PSC) was expanding in scope and that this would turn it into “a form of national ID card”.

Helen Dixon’s concerns are contained in an email to former secretary general Niamh O’Donoghue, released to The Irish Times under the Freedom of Information Act. The department initially refused to release the record late last year and, on appeal, the Information Commissioner overturned the decision.

Ms Dixon wrote on August 19th, 2016, that expanding the use of the PPS number and the card beyond their original boundaries would “increase the exposure of the PPSN system to heightened risk in terms of the protections provided to the data privacy rights of individuals”.

AndrewJRenko

blanch152 wrote: »

You are drawing conclusions I haven't made.

The conclusion you made was;

Ultimately, if you want this type of integrated public service, you need an identity authenticator such as the public services card.

This is purely opinion. You have outlined no basis for this conclusion.

BarryM

I mentioned already that I suspect my Free Travel card (called a public service card) used my photo and signature facsimile from my driving license.

Yesterday I had to renew my driving license, I am of the category that requires a three year renewal. I was surprised to discover I had to complete the application form and sign it etc., even though I produced my three year old license and my PSC. The lady dealing with me handed back the PSC, saying "I don't need that" and told me I needed to fill in all the details (name, address, answer all the medical stuff....) and sign it. She then asked me to point towards the screen, have my photo taken and sign in the little box.

OK, if it was a ten year renewal then maybe a new photo is valid, but three year renewal?

Also, what is the requirement to re-enter all the details, if nothing has changed and I had my medical signed by the doctor?

Since the driving license people had exchanged my data for the PSC, why did she reject the PSC? I thought the public service card was supposed to identify me for public services?

Bizarre?

yenom

BarryM wrote: »

I mentioned already that I suspect my Free Travel card (called a public service card) used my photo and signature facsimile from my driving license.

Yesterday I had to renew my driving license, I am of the category that requires a three year renewal. I was surprised to discover I had to complete the application form and sign it etc., even though I produced my three year old license and my PSC. The lady dealing with me handed back the PSC, saying "I don't need that" and told me I needed to fill in all the details (name, address, answer all the medical stuff....) and sign it. She then asked me to point towards the screen, have my photo taken and sign in the little box.

OK, if it was a ten year renewal then maybe a new photo is valid, but three year renewal?

Also, what is the requirement to re-enter all the details, if nothing has changed and I had my medical signed by the doctor?

Since the driving license people had exchanged my data for the PSC, why did she reject the PSC? I thought the public service card was supposed to identify me for public services?

Bizarre?

Put in a Freedom if Information request on how they got your photo. They are nice people and will be bound by the law to give you the correct answer and evidence to support their answer.

Sam Russell

BarryM wrote: »

I mentioned already that I suspect my Free Travel card (called a public service card) used my photo and signature facsimile from my driving license.

Yesterday I had to renew my driving license, I am of the category that requires a three year renewal. I was surprised to discover I had to complete the application form and sign it etc., even though I produced my three year old license and my PSC. The lady dealing with me handed back the PSC, saying "I don't need that" and told me I needed to fill in all the details (name, address, answer all the medical stuff....) and sign it. She then asked me to point towards the screen, have my photo taken and sign in the little box.

OK, if it was a ten year renewal then maybe a new photo is valid, but three year renewal?

Also, what is the requirement to re-enter all the details, if nothing has changed and I had my medical signed by the doctor?

Since the driving license people had exchanged my data for the PSC, why did she reject the PSC? I thought the public service card was supposed to identify me for public services?

Bizarre?

The PSC is mid roll out, and currently, as I understand it, is needed for some elements for a driving licence but not a renewal.

The PSC you received was derived from your passport, not issued directly as it is currently by an actual visit, physically, at an office.

As I said - it appears to be mid roll out.

punisher5112

Sam Russell wrote: »

The PSC is mid roll out, and currently, as I understand it, is needed for some elements for a driving licence but not a renewal.

The PSC you received was derived from your passport, not issued directly as it is currently by an actual visit, physically, at an office.

As I said - it appears to be mid roll out.

Certain people qualified automatically for the psc to be sent out without having to attend an office for photo as I am one. Mine is on its way to me and I never applied.

Sam Russell

punisher5112 wrote: »

Certain people qualified automatically for the psc to be sent out without having to attend an office for photo as I am one. Mine is on its way to me and I never applied.

I think the criterion for attending or not attending to get one is probably a closely guarded secret protocol within the civil service. Legislation is clearly needed.

Hotblack Desiato

It'll be done on a risk-based approach. You're complaining about a concession. They have the legal right to make anyone who needs a PSC attend in person to get one, that doesn't mean that everyone who gets a PSC has to attend in person.

OAPs with a long record of PRSI contributions, resident here, and with a contributory pension are low risk of identity theft. (Unless the rellies claiming their pension after they're dead counts as identity theft!)

Revenue audits are done on a risk-based approach too. They have the legal right to audit anyone they like. They generally concentrate on where the greatest risk of significant evasion is.

antoinolachtnai

The passport database cannot be raided to get the photo without the data subject's consent.

The idea that a card can be issued that is claimed to be superior in integrity to a passport, on the basis of the number of PRSI contributions or whatever is ridiculous.

The reality is that straightforward identity theft to access public services is extremely rare. Hardly anyone does it.

BarryM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The PSC is mid roll out, and currently, as I understand it, is needed for some elements for a driving licence but not a renewal.

Any source for that?

The PSC you received was derived from your passport, not issued directly as it is currently by an actual visit, physically, at an office.

Not in my case, my pen ran out when signing passport, signature there is quite different.

Sam Russell

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-plans-200-000-public-services-card-campaign-1.3265101

Government plans €200,000 public services card campaign
Departments want to increase uptake and counteract ‘negative’ media coverage

The Government is to launch a €200,000 radio and online advertising campaign to promote the public services card and to address concerns reported in the media in recent months.
The Department of Public Expenditure and the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer are seeking tenders for a media strategy and creative campaign to encourage uptake of the card, particularly among young people and men of working age.

They are still at it.

I love Sean nos

Sam Russell wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-plans-200-000-public-services-card-campaign-1.3265101



They are still at it.

Good luck with that. They're people who have no reason to get one and who can't be threatened with withdrawal of payments for non-compliance.

encourage uptake of the card, particularly among young people and men of working age.

BorneTobyWilde

If you need a passport, as I do then what choice have I but to get the thing.??

I applied for one 5 weeks ago, still did not get it. They said they are slow getting them processed ????? 5 weeks ?

I love Sean nos

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If you need a passport, as I do then what choice have I but to get the thing.??

All they take is a photocopy of the card, which is feck all use.

antoinolachtnai

Write to passport office and say you can't get the PSC, but need a passport.

You are entitled to a passport. There is no legal requirement to have a PSC to get a passport. The Passport Office will not accept the PSC as satisfactory identification in any case.

I love Sean nos

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is no legal requirement to have a PSC to get a passport.

There's no legal requirement to have a PSC at all. If there was, there would be no need for threats and coercion for one part of society and a PR campaign for the other.

I love Sean nos

I love Sean nos wrote: »

There's no legal requirement to have a PSC at all. If there was, there would be no need for threats and coercion for one part of society and a PR campaign for the other.

What’s the problem with getting one? Imagine if you became ill or unemployed. Wouldn’t it be better to have all necessary information on one card acceptable to social services than face delays in processing your claim?

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

What’s the problem with getting one? Imagine if you became ill or unemployed. Wouldn’t it be better to have all necessary information on one card acceptable to social services than face delays in processing your claim?

Wouldn't it be better to have a sound legal basis for Government requiring a Social Welfare card to get a driving licence?

BorneTobyWilde

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Write to passport office and say you can't get the PSC, but need a passport.

You are entitled to a passport. There is no legal requirement to have a PSC to get a passport. The Passport Office will not accept the PSC as satisfactory identification in any case.

I could not go on a holiday abroad this summer as I could not get a passport. I was very much held prisoner in this country, and even to this day ,weeks later I have no passport, or PSC, even though I applied for one.
It's a joke.

I love Sean nos

Deleted User wrote: »

What’s the problem with getting one? Imagine if you became ill or unemployed. Wouldn’t it be better to have all necessary information on one card acceptable to social services than face delays in processing your claim?

Why would I need one if I was ill? Are they going to ask for them at hospitals now?

I love Sean nos

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Why would I need one if I was ill? Are they going to ask for them at hospitals now?

That hadn’t occurred to me but wouldn’t it be a great idea. Then they’d know straight away if you had a medical card or not.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, it is not mandatory - but only if you do not need a driving licence or passport, or you do not need social security payments. It is only a small step to make it so you need it for a bank account, etc. Then it becomes essential - but not mandatory - which is a question of semantics.

I got one recently.
Needed it just to check my PRSI contributions online. Fairly painless to get to be fair.

I love Sean nos

Deleted User wrote: »

That hadn’t occurred to me but wouldn’t it be a great idea. Then they’d know straight away if you had a medical card or not.

I'd prefer they got on with the treatment myself.

Brendan Bendar

What's the big deal about all this.

Are the lads operating on the edge of the envelope getting spooked?


Nevvverrr!!!

Mountainsandh

Augeo wrote: »

I got one recently.
Needed it just to check my PRSI contributions online. Fairly painless to get to be fair.

I was called but I couldn't go, and then the lady on the phone said I could call in anytime to get it done, did you have an appointment ? Did it take just one visit to have it done ? I'm aware of the documentation required, it's just I find it very hard to find a free morning to go so I just want to chance it when I'm free.

I love Sean nos

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

What's the big deal about all this.

Are the lads operating on the edge of the envelope getting spooked?


Nevvverrr!!!

PAYE worker here and yes I have a concern with the State spending €61m on a scheme without a coherent reason for doing so.

Has nothing been learned from the voting machines nonsense?

Mountainsandh

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I was called but I couldn't go, and then the lady on the phone said I could call in anytime to get it done, did you have an appointment ? Did it take just one visit to have it done ? I'm aware of the documentation required, it's just I find it very hard to find a free morning to go so I just want to chance it when I'm free.

My OH had same problem. He happened to be in Town one week day and took a chance and called in. He was processed straight away as he had paperwork on him.

Mountainsandh

Deleted User wrote: »

My OH had same problem. He happened to be in Town one week day and took a chance and called in. He was processed straight away as he had paperwork on him.

Brilliant. Even more brilliant as I think our offices are in the same town. I have it on the backburner still.