Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

Options
145791024

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭ressem


    I haven't factored in anything because they're not my figures - but you raise an interesting project governance question about the business case. Is there a business case for this project showing what are the projected costs and savings?

    According to
    http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/annualreports/2015/report/en/Chapter10.pdf Page 14 10.54
    The accounting officer apparently went on record to say that due to the lack of similar existing initiatives that a business case was not possible at inception time.

    The case that raised the issue involved public servants having to go out and visit the lady at her home, look at her supporting documentation and someone there reluctantly make a yay/nay judgement on her identification.

    They would greatly prefer that the claimant did the legwork to get themselves identified; that any errors would be someone else's problem.

    She did the system a favour if she clarifies the requirement or lack of one. Our legal and political setup tends to leave a lot of things half-done requiring repeated, stalled trips back to the Dail to clean up knock-on-effects.
    I don't have a PSC card and I renewed my passport last week without one, so it isn't mandatory.
    Ditto despite it being well expired. According to the C&AG report, it's only first time passport applicants for whom it's necessary.

    But yeah, it does look like it'll be expected ID in future, and if you want to do without, you'll have to bear the high costs and delays for being an unusual case that isn't part of a standard workflow.
    At July 2016, DSP estimates savings in payments of €2.5 million since the introduction
    of the PSC, based on the suspension of welfare payments in instances where an
    individual invited to make a SAFE registration did not do so.
    I would have believed that the major savings would be in public service work hours that would not be included in this figure, and removing delays to the public due to waiting for authentication.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    ressem wrote: »

    But yeah, it does look like it'll be expected ID in future, and if you want to do without, you'll have to bear the high costs and delays for being an unusual case that isn't part of a standard workflow.

    Isn't that what people are complaining about though. that even if you are willing to bear extra costs and delays the Government won't let you .


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,293 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Isn't that what people are complaining about though. that even if you are willing to bear extra costs and delays the Government won't let you .

    We can't build systems and procedures especially for this kind of nonsense, that is unless these people are willing to cover the entire costs of such environments, not just a toke couple of 1000s Euros.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    We can't build systems and procedures especially for this kind of nonsense, that is unless these people are willing to cover the entire costs of such environments, not just a toke couple of 1000s Euros.

    Except we wouldn't be building them from scratch given they are the systems that were already in place , for Dept of Social Welfare at most 4 years ago ,for RSA before 2 months ago


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭dev100


    By the way, those that never sat a test got one when there were no motorways, roundabouts or traffic lights in most of the country.

    Only time you are allowed drive on the motor way is when you pass your driving test.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    dev100 wrote: »
    Only time you are allowed drive on the motor way is when you pass your driving test.

    No, you are allowed on to a motorway if you have a FULL driving licence. Initially there was no test. A test was introduced but many continued to drive on a provisional licence, and just renewed it. Then they limited the no of provisional licences to two, and then you had to take a test. Consequently there was a huge backlog for the test, so, at a stroke of a pen, all those waiting for a test got a full licence, even if they had never driven. Those people are still driving.

    Passing the test is a recent innovation. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,934 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    No, you are allowed on to a motorway if you have a FULL driving licence. Initially there was no test. A test was introduced but many continued to drive on a provisional licence, and just renewed it. Then they limited the no of provisional licences to two, and then you had to take a test. Consequently there was a huge backlog for the test, so, at a stroke of a pen, all those waiting for a test got a full licence, even if they had never driven. Those people are still driving.

    Passing the test is a recent innovation. :)


    1979 if I recall correctly was the amnesty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 750 ✭✭✭brownswiss


    No, you are allowed on to a motorway if you have a FULL driving licence. Initially there was no test. A test was introduced but many continued to drive on a provisional licence, and just renewed it. Then they limited the no of provisional licences to two, and then you had to take a test. Consequently there was a huge backlog for the test, so, at a stroke of a pen, all those waiting for a test got a full licence, even if they had never driven. Those people are still driving.

    Passing the test is a recent innovation. :)
    ... Yes 1964 is recent to some of us senior citizens ....
    According to reports in the Irish Independent at the time, March 16, 1964 was the last day you could get a licence without taking a driving test. The paper reported that almost 5,000 applied for a licence to beat the deadline.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,934 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    brownswiss wrote: »
    ... Yes 1964 is recent to some of us senior citizens ....
    According to reports in the Irish Independent at the time, March 16, 1964 was the last day you could get a licence without taking a driving test. The paper reported that almost 5,000 applied for a licence to beat the deadline.


    I don't remember 1964 but I do remember the amnesty in 1979.

    http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/why-roads-are-safer-after-50-years-of-the-driving-test-30062291.html


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    blanch152 wrote: »
    1979 if I recall correctly was the amnesty.
    brownswiss wrote: »
    ... Yes 1964 is recent to some of us senior citizens ....
    According to reports in the Irish Independent at the time, March 16, 1964 was the last day you could get a licence without taking a driving test. The paper reported that almost 5,000 applied for a licence to beat the deadline.

    So someone could be 56 or so and got an amnesty licence or 70 and got a no-test one. The no-test ones may have never driven a car, while the amnesty ones only had to have a provisional licence, maybe a second one. Many of these are still driving.

    Plus many people have licences for categories they would now need a test, but they have never taken one.

    That is the way things work, bit by bit. We will improve security, and currently the PSC is becoming the de-facto government standard for ID.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,293 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Except we wouldn't be building them from scratch given they are the systems that were already in place , for Dept of Social Welfare at most 4 years ago ,for RSA before 2 months ago

    We have to maintain that crap, replace it, buy new systems and so on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,932 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato



    The journo who lost any and all credibility by championing our friend Pamela for years in spite of the obvious evidence?

    The Dublin Airport cap is damaging the economy of Ireland as a whole, and must be scrapped forthwith.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,010 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The journo who lost any and all credibility by championing our friend Pamela for years in spite of the obvious evidence?
    Now there's a man who knows how to really hold onto a grudge...


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,024 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    If you are interested in the subject of this thread please take the time to listen to Simon McGarr Solicitor on Morning Ireland.

    Click the link and go to about 4.50.

    http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F21225476%5F48%5F29%2D08%2D2017%5F

    In 7 minutes he demolishes the Government and Civil Service position.


  • Registered Users Posts: 659 ✭✭✭yenom


    What could someone actually do with this information? Claim your dole? They can't because your photo is on the card. There's not much in the chip. If you brought it to the tax office, they can't access your dole records with it etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I'm just a bit amazed about how 'everyone' knows that there were loads of people who signed off welfare when they were invited to get the PSC card, but no-one can quote an actual number or source an official report. If no-one has an actual number, how can we have any idea what 'loads' mean? Does it mean 10, or 100 or 100,000?

    I'm sure figures were given at the presentation but I can't remember them. It's also nothing to do with my dept.
    As for exact figures. As these people signed off and there is no requirement to give a reason or indeed present at a swo then exact reasons can't be given.
    However as is said, if it barks like a dog, wags it's tail like a dog...etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I accept that however if your going to do something, why not do it right?! And it's nothing to do with registering cars. It's to do with applying for a new category license.

    A) Why doesn't it say that a PCS is the only form of identification now accepted in the passport application forms at the moment in order to get a passport?

    B) Why should this woman be the guinea pig, she was Irish and as entitled to an Irish passport as you or I! She had also paid €100 for the express passport service by post and the passport office insisted that when she gets her public services card (or a letter proving she has applied for one and it has been approved) that she travel to Dublin to apply for an emergency passport and pay the €220 fee as she didn't provide the required documentation in the first application. The application that doesn't currently say you need a PSC card to apply for a passport, what a joke!

    No idea on A or B.
    It will be a requirement for registering a second hand vehicle in the name of the new owner.
    Currently there are no checks. That there are vehicles falsely registered is scarey


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,932 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    elperello wrote: »
    If you are interested in the subject of this thread please take the time to listen to Simon McGarr Solicitor on Morning Ireland.

    RTE and Newstalk are full of self-appointed 'experts'.

    The Dublin Airport cap is damaging the economy of Ireland as a whole, and must be scrapped forthwith.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    It would be 24 years paying for itself, to be precise - is this really a good investment?

    The figures don't take into account the benefits across government function of being able to tie in a single identity model for people. For example, what cost is associated with all the different IT systems on government departments dealing with peoples identities, with all the processes, time and effort behind them and the public servants tied up duplicating the work?

    I don't know why there's even an argument about this card when people happily will hold a passport or a driving licence. But then we do have form for letting our imaginations run with it.

    Until the day arrives when you need to carry ID with you in public, there's no such thing as a national ID card and if that day is arriving then that's the time to stand up and object.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,920 ✭✭✭Grab All Association


    Story last week in the indo about an elderly woman who forgot to pay for an item. The security guard in Dunnes Stores took a photo of her PCS. The data protection need to investigate this immediately. She was under no obligation to show it to them nor did they have the right to take a copy of it

    I'll link the story when I find it

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/elderly-woman-barred-from-all-dunnes-stores-after-mistakenly-leaving-without-paying-for-350-bottle-of-wine-36020022.html


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Story last week in the indo about an elderly woman who forgot to pay for an item. The security guard in Dunnes Stores took a photo of her PCS. The data protection need to investigate this immediately. She was under no obligation to show it to them nor did they have the right to take a copy of it

    I'll link the story when I find it

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/elderly-woman-barred-from-all-dunnes-stores-after-mistakenly-leaving-without-paying-for-350-bottle-of-wine-36020022.html

    The article says they took a photo of her bus pass. The information is in the chip of her PSC not in a photo of a bus pass. I know that the PSC double as a bus pass, but the article specifies bus pass. Some still have the old ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,934 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Story last week in the indo about an elderly woman who forgot to pay for an item. The security guard in Dunnes Stores took a photo of her PCS. The data protection need to investigate this immediately. She was under no obligation to show it to them nor did they have the right to take a copy of it

    I'll link the story when I find it

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/elderly-woman-barred-from-all-dunnes-stores-after-mistakenly-leaving-without-paying-for-350-bottle-of-wine-36020022.html



    That is nothing to do with the Government, and nothing to do with the Public Services Card.

    It is a data protection issue for Dunnes Stores. Can you link to the specific piece of legislation/case law that says they weren't allowed take a picture of it once she voluntarily showed it to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,010 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I'm sure figures were given at the presentation but I can't remember them. It's also nothing to do with my dept.
    As for exact figures. As these people signed off and there is no requirement to give a reason or indeed present at a swo then exact reasons can't be given.
    However as is said, if it barks like a dog, wags it's tail like a dog...etc

    We can't really be justifying €60m spends on the basis of 'if it barks like a dog'. We need something more concrete than that. If there is a serious saving to be made as a result of this card being a deterrent, somebody needs to be prepared to put their neck on the line and put a number on this. If the experts are not prepared to commit to this, that tells a story.
    The figures don't take into account the benefits across government function of being able to tie in a single identity model for people. For example, what cost is associated with all the different IT systems on government departments dealing with peoples identities, with all the processes, time and effort behind them and the public servants tied up duplicating the work?

    Why not? If there are real savings here, why aren't these quantified? I'm not so sure this is a big saving. Yes, there may be some duplication on authentication and identification, but there will also be some additional complexities around interfacing into a central system to counter these.
    I don't know why there's even an argument about this card when people happily will hold a passport or a driving licence. But then we do have form for letting our imaginations run with it.

    Until the day arrives when you need to carry ID with you in public, there's no such thing as a national ID card and if that day is arriving then that's the time to stand up and object.
    That day will be way too late. Let's have a proper mature discussion about this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    We can't really be justifying €60m spends on the basis of 'if it barks like a dog'. We need something more concrete than that. If there is a serious saving to be made..
    There's two separate issues here.
    1. How many millions will be saved per year (by avoiding fraud, and by better efficiency in admin)
    2. How much does a card cost to introduce, and whether the taxpayer paid over the odds for this one.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Total fraud prevention savings isn't quantifiable. They're only able to put a number on detection, not prevention.

    They haven't put a number on time savings for public bodies.

    It would be hard to put a value on time saving/convenience for the general public.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,934 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    We can't really be justifying €60m spends on the basis of 'if it barks like a dog'. We need something more concrete than that. If there is a serious saving to be made as a result of this card being a deterrent, somebody needs to be prepared to put their neck on the line and put a number on this. If the experts are not prepared to commit to this, that tells a story.



    Why not? If there are real savings here, why aren't these quantified? I'm not so sure this is a big saving. Yes, there may be some duplication on authentication and identification, but there will also be some additional complexities around interfacing into a central system to counter these.


    That day will be way too late. Let's have a proper mature discussion about this.

    Here is the report you asked for:

    http://audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/annualreports/2015/Report/En/Chapter10.pdf


    You will note in the second paragraph:

    "The key advantage identified for using a single card-based access to public services was that delivery of services becomes substantially more efficient when the means for identifying and authenticating the user are standardised across all government agencies."

    Now, that has nothing to do with savings from fraud, which is just another red herring put by the serial objectors in the media. The fraud savings are almost seen as an afterthought:

    "In addition, the use of a PSC would reduce the rates of fraud and errors caused through incorrect identification and authentication of users of public services"


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    As far as I see, this card is the current Gov method of identifying a person. It contain a bio-metric photograph, and other details such as dob. It is only given (currently) on a face to face basis where a photograph is taken and is a bio-metric image that can be used in facial recognition software. This is at 'SAFE 2' level, whatever that means.

    Previously, the passport was the most secure ID document issued by the state which went bio-metric following 9/11, but now this card is the highest level of ID security. It is/will be the basis for all high value payments from the state.
    Security of the passport itself has been beefed up with the latest ones, separately from this card.

    Expect it to be used by the revenue, in conjunction with the Eircode. They really will have everyone by the short ones. In fact I am surprised that one's Eircode is not included.

    Looking at the Medical Card, it says on it that the magnetic strip only contains the data printed on the card. The PSC does not say that and if it did, it would not be true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I can't see the problem here. If it's a data protection issue, every time a person needs to avail of a particular service they need to provide all their details on a form, letters and bills.
    All this stuff is kept on file and in a database which can be accessed by staff
    We already know information is shared between social welfare and revenue. I was reading recently that someone was caught claiming too much JSA based on the amount of DIRT they were paying on their undeclared savings.

    The argument over data protection with regards the card is a red herring.
    It's purpose is to prevent fraud. It's working
    If anyone thinks we shouldn't have the cards please provide another solution to prevent my taxes being stolen by people who shouldn't have access to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Expect it to be used by the revenue, in conjunction with the Eircode. They really will have everyone by the short ones. In fact I am surprised that one's Eircode is not included.
    There is no need to match everyone to an address, especially if they are students or tenants or whatever.
    You can be sure that the person who is liable for property tax (the nominated owner) is already matched via their PPS number to their eircode. If there is any Eircode that is not paying property tax, they will want to know why. Eircodes are basically PPS numbers for properties. The actual number is pretty random, therefore it is not "a code" but it is "a unique identifier".
    The idea of postcodes was knocking around for decades, but it only gelled into an urgent requirement to have a unique identifier for each property after the IMF "encouraged" us to introduce a property tax.

    That's another project that cost a lot of money, even though a more advanced working version was already available, and offered to the govt. for free.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    recedite wrote: »
    There is no need to match everyone to an address, especially if they are students or tenants or whatever.
    You can be sure that the person who is liable for property tax (the nominated owner) is already matched via their PPS number to their eircode. If there is any Eircode that is not paying property tax, they will want to know why. Eircodes are basically PPS numbers for properties. The actual number is pretty random, therefore it is not "a code" but it is "a unique identifier".
    The idea of postcodes was knocking around for decades, but it only gelled into an urgent requirement to have a unique identifier for each property after the IMF "encouraged" us to introduce a property tax.

    That's another project that cost a lot of money, even though a more advanced working version was already available, and offered to the govt. for free.

    Well, in the area of the country that does not have unique addresses, Eircode is essential for many Gov functions if they are to reduce fraud and evasion. For example, vehicle registrations, Driving licences and fine, summonses. The PSC identifies a person, the Eircode pins them to an address. The combinations gives two excellent keys into a database.

    In Ireland, remember, many people operated under their name, and an alter ego, their name as Gaeilga. With the PSC this will no longer work.


Advertisement