Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

Sam Russell

There is a report in the IT about a woman refused social welfare because she refused to get a Public Service Card.

This card has been introduced at a cost of some €60 m or so with over 2 million issued to date. The card is an attempt to reduce fraud and is a pre-requisite before being granted a driving licence or a passport. It is also used as a free travel pass, with electronic validation similar to a leap card.

Is this an ID card? And if it is, why the fuss as I would assume it is valid for the state to require validation of people ID before they give out benefits?

The particular case relates to a woman who is in receipt of a contributory pension but also qualifies for a non-contributory pension of €166 pw but is refused that until she gets the PSC. Now I do not understand how anyone can qualify for both a contributory and non-contributory pension at the same time, so maybe that is part of the problem.

Would a state ID card be a good idea, particularly with Brexit hanging over us? Is the security aspects of this card good enough for such a use? And what of the credit card passport - surely that is a better way to go?

Kimbot

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a report in the IT about a woman refused social welfare because she refused to get a Public Service Card.

This card has been introduced at a cost of some €60 m or so with over 2 million issued to date. The card is an attempt to reduce fraud and is a pre-requisite before being granted a driving licence or a passport. It is also used as a free travel pass, with electronic validation similar to a leap card.

Is this an ID card? And if it is, why the fuss as I would assume it is valid for the state to require validation of people ID before they give out benefits?

The particular case relates to a woman who is in receipt of a contributory pension but also qualifies for a non-contributory pension of €166 pw but is refused that until she gets the PSC. Now I do not understand how anyone can qualify for both a contributory and non-contributory pension at the same time, so maybe that is part of the problem.

Would a state ID card be a good idea, particularly with Brexit hanging over us? Is the security aspects of this card good enough for such a use? And what of the credit card passport - surely that is a better way to go?

I read a little about this yesterday, it seemed to imply that she had no other form of national ID (Drivers lisence/passport) and wanted her to get the card to use as the ID.

I believe the pension is to do with her late husband??

punisher5112

Great system to help stop many going to different counties etc. For extra payments.

Spanish Eyes

Well she refused to get a card, so didn't get any payments either. I read somewhere that she hasn't been able to collectup to €13k in pension payments because of her refusal to get a card.

Now this lady had a contributory pension which was presumably small, and according to reports applied for and was means tested for a non contributory pension to bring her up to normal levels for a pension.

She must have some means if she can forego 13k and rising!

Why did she apply for it in the first place if she obviously doesn't need it.

Meeoow

Why did she apply for it in the first place if she obviously doesn't need it.[/quote]

Because she's entitled to it??

Chips Lovell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is this an ID card?

Not in my understanding of what a national ID card is. For example, in Spain, they are mandatory and you have to carry one with you at all times.

This is a little different.

Sam Russell

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Not in my understanding of what a national ID card is. For example, in Spain, they are mandatory and you have to carry one with you at all times.

This is a little different.

Well, it is not mandatory - but only if you do not need a driving licence or passport, or you do not need social security payments. It is only a small step to make it so you need it for a bank account, etc. Then it becomes essential - but not mandatory - which is a question of semantics.

Gatling

What I don't get the person would have needed the old white SW card to collect her payment and now she's objects to the new pcs which she was invited to get ,
Having been through the process there is no threatening letters

Chips Lovell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, it is not mandatory - but only if you do not need a driving licence or passport, or you do not need social security payments. It is only a small step to make it so you need it for a bank account, etc. Then it becomes essential - but not mandatory - which is a question of semantics.

You could say the same thing about a passport. Not mandatory, but you need it to travel.

oscarBravo

I've never understood what the problem is with an ID card anyway.

She doesn't want to get the card, so she can't claim an entitlement which requires the card. If she didn't want to have a passport, she couldn't travel to almost any other country. If she didn't want to have a driving licence, she couldn't drive a car.

Her stance seems to be "I want something, but I don't want to meet the requirements to get it." That's not a perspective I have a lot of sympathy for.

Sam Russell

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

You could say the same thing about a passport. Not mandatory, but you need it to travel.

To get a passport, you need to have a PSC - otherwise you cannot get one, so no foreign travel. If you want a driving licence, you need a PSC - otherwse no driving licence and so no driving. If you are getting free travel, you need a Free Travel Pass, which is one of the functions of the PSC.

So not mandatory, but essential for normal life, because without one, much of what you need from the government will be denied, with probably more to come. Perhaps library cards will be next, or maybe banks will be forced to need them to combat money laundering. Who knows?

screamer

So those who think this is by stealth think what? No one knows you exist.......or that you can hide..... I don't get it at all. It's a card to access public services. If you don't and won't need these then don't get one and don't complain about not getting your entitlements either. Now income tax..... There's stealth for you.

murphaph

National ID cards with compulsory registration of abode are actually very convenient. No "utility bill" nonsense when opening bank accounts or getting a mobile phone etc.

It's not just that the state knows where you are. It also makes it possible for private citizens to find credit defaulters etc. The state can find you through other means.

The actual carrying of the card is secondary. In Germany it's not compulsory to carry it, just to possess it and keep it up to date with current address.

TheShow

If she wants the money, she should get the card as required and stop whinging. end of.
The notions of some people in this country astounds me.

SPDUB

oscarBravo wrote: »

I've never understood what the problem is with an ID card anyway.

She doesn't want to get the card, so she can't claim an entitlement which requires the card. If she didn't want to have a passport, she couldn't travel to almost any other country. If she didn't want to have a driving licence, she couldn't drive a car.

Her stance seems to be "I want something, but I don't want to meet the requirements to get it." That's not a perspective I have a lot of sympathy for.

Her stance is more that "you have come out to my house to identify me and seen my marriage cert etc and you believe I am who I say I am and you agree I am due the payment .Furthermore you say the card is not compulsory to get the payment so pay it to me "

Given that the minsters guidelines only say you have to be suitability identified and the department agrees she is identified and the card is non compulsory then she should be paid

The Govt have a simple solution in this case just make it compulsory .Why they haven't is the question

oscarBravo

SPDUB wrote: »

Her stance is more that "you have come out to my house to identify me and seen my marriage cert etc and you believe I am who I say I am and you agree I am due the payment .Furthermore you say the card is not compulsory to get the payment so pay it to me "

None of that is clear from the article linked in the OP. Do you have another source of information on the story?

SPDUB

oscarBravo wrote: »

None of that is clear from the article linked in the OP. Do you have another source of information on the story?

Another story in the Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/woman-s-pension-cut-after-she-refuses-to-get-public-services-card-1.3194216

The woman had told officials that she would get the card if they could show her it was “mandatory” but nothing had been produced to show her that this was the case.

She said ...., officials had called to her house to verify her details, including her marriage certificate.

ETA https://twitter.com/cearta/status/900002199799029761

Eoin O'Dell @cearta Academic lawyer @TCDLawSchool

for the material about being suitably identified

marcus001

The fraud aspect is just an excuse. I'm a hardliner when it comes to welfare fraud but even I can see that the savings from this will be minimal which means the real motivation is to bring in a national ID. The fact you need it to get a passport or drivers licence now is all the evidence you need that its effectively mandatory.

So the debate shouldn't be about fraud it should be about whether we want a national ID card, but clearly the government is smarter than most of us and so we'll end up arguing about fraud instead.

marcus001

oscarBravo wrote: »

I've never understood what the problem is with an ID card anyway.

She doesn't want to get the card, so she can't claim an entitlement which requires the card. If she didn't want to have a passport, she couldn't travel to almost any other country. If she didn't want to have a driving licence, she couldn't drive a car.

Her stance seems to be "I want something, but I don't want to meet the requirements to get it." That's not a perspective I have a lot of sympathy for.

They don't make us safer and they don't save us money. They can only be useful against us.

Once everyone has one its not too much of a stretch to make it mandatory and from there not too much of a stretch to require everyone to carry it on them. Once that happens (and it won't all happen at once or under one government) it effectively becomes a walking licence, a licence to protest, a licence to breathe.

TheShow

marcus001 wrote: »

They don't make us safer and they don't save us money. They can only be useful against us.

Once everyone has one its not too much of a stretch to make it mandatory and from there not too much of a stretch to require everyone to carry it on them. Once that happens (and it won't all happen at once or under one government) it effectively becomes a walking licence, a licence to protest, a licence to breathe.

Those notions I was referring to....

Dantian

It's a free form of official ID - for those that dont have passports.

You don't HAVE to carry it like in the US, and cops can't ask you for it. However, proving who you are is necessary from opening bank accounts to accessing social welfare. The card if simply a free way of getting an official form of ID


(you dont need a PSC to get a passport, because no one in NI has a PSC card but do have passports, so there is an alternate route there.)

murphaph

marcus001 wrote: »

They don't make us safer and they don't save us money. They can only be useful against us.

Once everyone has one its not too much of a stretch to make it mandatory and from there not too much of a stretch to require everyone to carry it on them. Once that happens (and it won't all happen at once or under one government) it effectively becomes a walking licence, a licence to protest, a licence to breathe.

Yawn. Germany has had compulsory IDs for decades. I've never seen protests (including disgraceful torching of private property by the far left) in Ireland like you'll see in Germany.

Sam Russell

I think that one thing that is missing from the PSC is an address. It would be required for the card to be a national ID card. Now that Eircode is rolled out, and only consists of 7 characters (8 if you include the space), so it would be a small load on the space available and would be unobtrusive.

Given the worldwide pressure for security, and the prevalence of ID theft, it is inevitable that a national ID card will be required. But is the PSC card secure enough. Would not a variation on the current CC driving licence not be more useful if a national ID card was to be introduced?

jimmycrackcorm

Sam Russell wrote:

To get a passport, you need to have a PSC - otherwise you cannot get one, so no foreign travel. If you want a driving licence, you need a PSC - otherwse no driving licence and so no driving.

Anyone who has had either prior to the the introduction of the PSC doesn't need it for renewals.

SPDUB wrote:

Her stance is more that "you have come out to my house to identify me and seen my marriage cert etc and you believe I am who I say I am and you agree I am due the payment .Furthermore you say the card is not compulsory to get the payment so pay it to me "

Doesn't the card have to be scanned at the post office for pension collection?

NinjaTruncs

Is it the card that is important or the actual process of getting the card? I would imagine it's the latter in that they take a photo of you which they can use with facial recognition software to find people claiming under multiple identities. There was a case in the press a while ago where a woman was claiming under her sister's identity for years, she was only caught when she went to apply for her own public services card at which point she got caught.

I would wonder why this woman is so set against wanting to get a card, is she concerned with what may be found when checks are done for the card?

When giving out the huge sums of money we give out in social welfare payment we need to be rigorous in checking for and preventing fraud, ensuring everyone has one of these cards is one step towards stopping fraud.

AndrewJRenko

Here's the current plan for requiring the PSC card for further public services;

http://egovstrategy.gov.ie/annex-b/

It is interesting to note that there was little uproar when it was required just for welfare, but now that it is going beyond that, it is actually getting some serious attention.

It is starting to looking very much like a mandatory ID card being introduced on the sly, without any public debate about why we are doing this, whether it is really needed, what are the alternatives and (if it goes ahead) how it will be managed. There are many IT security questions about how this information will be shared being left unanswered.

jem

If there was a proper debate about an ID card fine. But there hasn't been.
yet this is in effect one.
there are views against it and its legality http://www.mcgarrsolicitors.ie/2017/08/23/public-services-card-id-database-id-card/
and the privacy/ data protection issues
https://www.digitalrights.ie/new-egovernment-strategy/
http://www.thejournal.ie/public-services-card-3496359-Jul2017/

IMHO the push is all about money, the govt will have to pay more if they dont hit the 3m and are doing everything to get there.

Personally I am against it.

Chips Lovell

Sam Russell wrote: »

To get a passport, you need to have a PSC - otherwise you cannot get one, so no foreign travel. If you want a driving licence, you need a PSC - otherwse no driving licence and so no driving. If you are getting free travel, you need a Free Travel Pass, which is one of the functions of the PSC.

What I'm driving at was that a passport is a form of identification that people never had any issue with getting, but do have an issue with this identification. What's the difference really?

Personally, I'd find it more convenient to have to just verify my identity once in order to avail of state services rather than have to go through the same rigmarole every time I apply for a passport, drivers licence etc.

I think there's a big difference between this and systems where you have to carry ID cards with you at all times and can be subject to random "papers please" checks by the police.

marcus001

murphaph wrote: »

Yawn. Germany has had compulsory IDs for decades. I've never seen protests (including disgraceful torching of private property by the far left) in Ireland like you'll see in Germany.

Germany have had governments that respect civil liberties for those decades well. What if they some day don't and you have a government that can track every citizens movement?

Why does virtually every civil liberties group oppose national ID cards?

They never solve the problem they were implemented for. Why would you give government powers it doesn't need or deserve?

marcus001

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

What I'm driving at was that a passport is a form of identification that people never had any issue with getting, but do have an issue with this identification. What's the difference really?

Personally, I'd find it more convenient to have to just verify my identity once in order to avail of state services rather than have to go through the same rigmarole every time I apply for a passport, drivers licence etc.

I think there's a big difference between this and systems where you have to carry ID cards with you at all times and can be subject to random "papers please" checks by the police.

International travel is not a constitutional right. You have a right to access public services. Demanding that you fulfill an arbitrary requirement (and this card is arbitrary, no reason you can't identify yourself without it) should be unconstitutional and I think it is.

Well they can't implement that system here because not everyone has the card, but once everyone has it it becomes possible to implement it should the "need" arise. There'll always be some watershed event to happen in future that will provide the excuse.

oscarBravo

I do agree that we need a proper debate about a national ID card, but I'm not sure we're capable of having proper debates in this country.

There are clear advantages to having such a card - just ask anyone living in a country that has them. The disadvantages seem to mostly boil down to "I don't trust the government".

If we were having a proper debate, we could discuss the risks and the necessary measures to mitigate them. But as long as the debate centres around "ID cards bad mkay" then we'll never get to that discussion.

marcus001

oscarBravo wrote: »

I do agree that we need a proper debate about a national ID card, but I'm not sure we're capable of having proper debates in this country.

There are clear advantages to having such a card - just ask anyone living in a country that has them. The disadvantages seem to mostly boil down to "I don't trust the government".

If we were having a proper debate, we could discuss the risks and the necessary measures to mitigate them. But as long as the debate centres around "ID cards bad mkay" then we'll never get to that discussion.

The debate should be had in stages. The first stage is, do we need them? I think it fails the first test.

Chips Lovell

marcus001 wrote: »

Well they can't implement that system here because not everyone has the card, but once everyone has it it becomes possible to implement it should the "need" arise.

Slippery slope fallacy.

oscarBravo

marcus001 wrote: »

The debate should be had in stages. The first stage is, do we need them? I think it fails the first test.

That's because you've decided you don't want them, and are arguing from that premise.

Do we "need" ID cards? No. Are there arguments in favour of ID cards? Yes. Are there arguments against them? Yes.

If we're going to have the debate in stages, we need to have a grown-up debate. But, as I've said, we're not good at those.

circular flexing

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

What I'm driving at was that a passport is a form of identification that people never had any issue with getting, but do have an issue with this identification. What's the difference really?

The passport has a basis in law, the ID card doesn't

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/4/enacted/en/html

jimmycrackcorm

I don't think it is correct to compare the PSC card to a national ID card. A national ID card had implications for privacy where it shouldn't be warranted. E.g. Garda stops me on the street, I shouldn't have to carry ID.

A PSC, just like a passport or driving licence is used for the specific purposes they're intended.

The concept of going down a slippery slope is imaginary. I'd happily protest if there was a proposal to use it as ID for the purposes it wasn't intended. Otherwise I don't feel objecting to my gym asking me to get in using my membership card.

Sam Russell

There two ID cards that appear to be voluntary - the Garda Age ID card for young ones, and the Garda ID card for immigrants. These appear to be quite useful for those that have them.

The PSC appears to be quite popular with those availing of free travel.

Dravokivich

I genuinely don't get how this is perceived as an ID card. It's just for using services provided by/on behalf of the state. You don't need to have it on you at all times. It's no more a means of identification than a Library Card.

Sam Russell wrote: »

There two ID cards that appear to be voluntary - the Garda Age ID card for young ones, and the Garda ID card for immigrants. These appear to be quite useful for those that have them.

The PSC appears to be quite popular with those availing of free travel.

That's because the PSC card is the free travel ticket now.

dr.fuzzenstein

murphaph wrote: »

National ID cards with compulsory registration of abode are actually very convenient. No "utility bill" nonsense when opening bank accounts or getting a mobile phone etc.

It's not just that the state knows where you are. It also makes it possible for private citizens to find credit defaulters etc. The state can find you through other means.

The actual carrying of the card is secondary. In Germany it's not compulsory to carry it, just to possess it and keep it up to date with current address.

THAT A THOUSAND TIMES!!!!!
In Germany I just need my ID card for everything. No need to spend 5 minutes to print off "genuine" utility bills (that any 12 year old with a laptop and a printer can fake) in order to satisfy this foolproof stupid fcuking requirements in place.

AndrewJRenko

circular flexing wrote: »

The passport has a basis in law, the ID card doesn't

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/4/enacted/en/html

And yet, it has become mandatory for certain services - with no legal basis. Scary.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

A PSC, just like a passport or driving licence is used for the specific purposes they're intended.

The concept of going down a slippery slope is imaginary. I'd happily protest if there was a proposal to use it as ID for the purposes it wasn't intended.

You presumably didn't read the link I posted earlier showing how it will be mandatory for access to agfood.ie portal and student grant services. The slippery slope is very, very real - with no debate inside or outside the Oireachtas on the matter.

marcus001

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Slippery slope fallacy.

Slippery slope is one of the most wrongly flagged fallacies of all.

The slippery slope fallacy is when you say that A leads to C without establishing how A leads to B and B leads to C.

But if you can establish how A leads to B and B leads to C then its not a fallacy.

marcus001

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't think it is correct to compare the PSC card to a national ID card. A national ID card had implications for privacy where it shouldn't be warranted. E.g. Garda stops me on the street, I shouldn't have to carry ID.

A PSC, just like a passport or driving licence is used for the specific purposes they're intended.

The concept of going down a slippery slope is imaginary. I'd happily protest if there was a proposal to use it as ID for the purposes it wasn't intended. Otherwise I don't feel objecting to my gym asking me to get in using my membership card.

You're missing the point that once everyone has a card for all the various services its required for it then becomes as easy as passing a bill to make it compulsory to carry. There needs to be no debate at that stage, no civil servants to get on board no discussion of the cost of implementation. They just sign a bill and your PSC card becomes a national ID card you are required to carry

jem

It is a way of joining up all govt departments etc- advantages for the permanent govt yes. advantages for the citizens of ireland no.
How long before banks require it to open accounts.
How long before Insurance companies require it
I can see a legal case been taken on this.

Chips Lovell

circular flexing wrote: »

The passport has a basis in law, the ID card doesn't

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/act/4/enacted/en/html

I'm assuming the government may argue that it's legally entitled to verify the identity of a person claiming a service and that this is now its preferred way of verifying identities.

marcus001 wrote: »

Slippery slope is one of the most wrongly flagged fallacies of all.

The slippery slope fallacy is when you say that A leads to C without establishing how A leads to B and B leads to C.

But if you can establish how A leads to B and B leads to C then its not a fallacy.

No, I think you're misunderstanding it there. With a slippery slope argument, the chain of events is known, but what's fallacious is the assumption that the chain is likely or inevitable.

For example: "We shouldn't introduce a property tax. Sure, €200 a year sounds reasonable but there's nothing to stop the government from jacking it up to €2,000 next year".

bluezulu49

According to this
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/regina-doherty-says-public-services-card-now-mandatory-for-welfare-1.3198024
Regina Doherty has said on radio this morning that the psc is now mandatory for welfare payments.

marcus001

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I'm assuming the government may argue that it's legally entitled to verify the identity of a person claiming a service and that this is now its preferred way of verifying identities.



No, I think you're misunderstanding it there. With a slippery slope argument, the chain of events is known, but what's fallacious is the assumption that the chain is likely or inevitable.

For example: "We shouldn't introduce a property tax. Sure, €200 a year sounds reasonable but there's nothing to stop the government from jacking it up to €2,000 next year".

That's a slippery slope argument but a slippery slope argument is not ipso facto fallacious.

A slippery slope fallacy would be " gay marriage? Next it'll be cousin marriage! :O"

You see?

Saying that once the PSC card is mandatory across the board it will be possible for the government to sign a law requiring everyone to carry it. That is not fallacious because one clearly leads to the other.

Its important we establish that because this issue will come up in this debate a lot.

Billgirlylegs

What?
It's a Public Services Card. It uses your Personal Public Services Number as an index, rather than your name.
Each person is allocated a single PPSN, each PPSN refers to one person only (excluding Errors/blunders)
It will eliminate most errors mixing up Pat Joe Kelly with Patrick J Kelly who lives two houses down the road.
It will address fraudulent SP / Education / Agriculture etc claims.

They have studiously avoided (admittedly only to date) not putting your date of birth on the PSC, your address or PPSN on your Passport, and your PPS on your Driving Licence.

The perceived cunning plan isn't that cunning.
The Government and Smart ? Have you not listened to them?

jem

I would put money on this being a civil servant idea as opposed to an actual minister.

Sierra Oscar

bluezulu49 wrote: »

According to this
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/regina-doherty-says-public-services-card-now-mandatory-for-welfare-1.3198024
Regina Doherty has said on radio this morning that the psc is now mandatory for welfare payments.

It's been reported as if this is a new development. It's not. The Public Services Card was first introduced in 2011 for people receiving social welfare payments. It was well flagged at the time that people would need the new card to access payments and the changeover from the old PPSN card. It was introduced on a phased basis.

We've literally known for years that this card would be extended to everyone and would become the primary verification scheme for accessing State services.

AndrewJRenko

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

We've literally known for years that this card would be extended to everyone and would become the primary verification scheme for accessing State services.

What was your source for 'literally' knowing this for years? Was this stated in any public policy document?

Personally I don't understand why a national ID card system is such a bad thing? Other countries have it. It would also negate the need for me to use my passport as ID when I really shouldn't have to.